View Poll Results: Would you host your customers on a server if no remote reboot port is provided?

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  1. #1
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    * Would you rent a server without a remote reboot port?

    Hi,

    Would you use for hosting purpose a server without a remote reboot port? With many providers, reboot is only possible by ticket or messaging system.

    Thank you
    .:. Enterprise SAN Consultant .:.

  2. #2
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    For me it depends on how fast they would reboot the server. Before ThePlanet had reboot ports, the average reboot time for me was about 7 minutes.. which is pretty fast.. so I was happy with that. I do like reboot ports though, and would probably pay an extra $20 - $40/mo for it.
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  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by edelweisshosting
    Hi,

    Would you use for hosting purpose a server without a remote reboot port? With many providers, reboot is only possible by ticket or messaging system.

    Thank you
    Only if your host is very fast in answering tickets or you have them always online on MSN or such....

  4. #4
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    But many hosts advertise 7/7 - 24/24 support, but when it comes to facts, they tend to take 4 to 10 hours to reboot
    .:. Enterprise SAN Consultant .:.

  5. #5
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    Both of my very cheap dedicated servers have free instant reboots thought their website. Ie u click reboot on the website the server is rebooted then so 2 mins later you are back online after installing some bad firewall rules . I think being able to reboot remotly is essential...

  6. #6
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    Most companies offer this service at no or limited cost anymore. There's little reason to not get it unless there are so many other features that it overwhelms the necessity.

  7. #7
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    As said, depends on the provider.... if they are fast enough when it comes to replying the urgent tickets, i'd have no problem not having remot reboot port... but it's plus point to have remote reboot in ur server...

  8. #8
    RRPs are something new, people did manage before without them. But since they're around now, it's more convenient and it gives you the sense of being in control..It's nice having one, but as mentioned if the provider has a prompt support team, it won't be direy needed.
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  9. #9
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    My provider doesn't have any, but even then, my server doesn't need reboots often and when it does, reboots are quick.

  10. #10
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    Of course it shouldn't come up much, but there's no reason not to be prepared. Even giving the techs the benefit of the doubt - I bet you could click a button faster than they could run to your server.
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  11. #11
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  12. #12
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    One of my providers put this in their welcome email. It sounds legit but I don't really know for sure.

    "We do not install remote reboot by default,
    because it can be very unhealthy for your server. The problem
    with remote reboot is that it hard powers off the machine.
    This can lead to data corruption, especially if the machine
    is very loaded and unresponsive, which is when most people
    use remote reboot.

    We are very easy to get a hold of via phone or helpdesk our
    datacenter is manned 24/7. We prefer that you call and/or
    open a helpdesk ticket because then we can access your
    server at the console and see what is causing the problem,
    as well any error messages that would help diagnose the problem.
    This is much safer than simply power cycling the machine,
    which oftentimes does more harm than good. "

    This was about a year ago when i got this particular machine ... sounds reasonable ... but I don't know.

  13. #13
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    Thats a totally legitamite claim oshawa, when you use a remote reboot you actually cut the power to the server, not just restart it.

    When a datacentre technician reboots the server, they usually press the restart button/power button, which maintains power to the system.

    Components are a lot more likely to suffer damage when they have the power cut then turn back on again then when they are simply restarted with the button, sue to the nature of electric.

    So your provider is right.

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  14. #14
    It barely costs anything on the providers part -- and it can essential in the event of an emergency.

  15. #15
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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by getpro
    If you use decent hardware you can normaly be sure that it would come back up after hard reboot.
    This is incorrect, it does not matter what grade/brand/standard of hardware you use, it will always be succeptable to damage from hard reboots, especially things like hard disk drives (and no, SCSI is not immune from these problems either) and memory.

    Electicity is volatile and it is in its nature to have a possibility of causing problems.

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  17. #17
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    Would I rent a server without a reboot port? Most definitely not.

    Getting staff on the phone is (usually) a challenge, and even if I DO get them on the phone, they have to put me on hold, find the server and reboot it.

    Opening a TICKET for reboots will take longer, because the staff has to wait to be notified of the ticket (usually every 5 minutes), respond to the ticket when they have time (depends on the DC there), go to the server, and then reboot the server. Seems kind of redundant there.

    Alternatively, when using a reboot port, you're in/out, the server is rebooted, voilla. 5 minutes later (usually), it's up and running again.

    Oshwa,
    Your provider is, unfortunately, wrong in this case. Back in the day, it used to be that APC was the standard in reboots, and that was simply a power thing, yes.

    Any more, though, IPMI is somewhat the standard, or it SHOULD be, as this can interact with the server itself on numerous levels, INCLUDING rebooting. This means that a "soft reset" can (or should) be issued and if THAT fails, then a "hard reset" (power off). Of course, I haven't played entirely too much with IPMI, but theoretically, it should be possible to do this.

    Reboot ports are easily enough added. To not offer them, well, it's a danger to the company itself. Adding reboot ports means taking AWAY from support tickets, meaning that support staff can continue to work on more important issues, without being disturbed by a "reboot" ticket.
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  18. #18
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    Any more, though, IPMI is somewhat the standard, or it SHOULD be, as this can interact with the server itself on numerous levels, INCLUDING rebooting. This means that a "soft reset" can (or should) be issued and if THAT fails, then a "hard reset" (power off). Of course, I haven't played entirely too much with IPMI, but theoretically, it should be possible to do this.
    I prefer traditional KVM/IP supplemented with APC strips instead of IPMI.

    IPMI doesn't always work when you need it to. In some cases, when the box is down, so is IPMI.

  19. #19
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    Wow, dead even. Well the provider I use currently doesn't offer them. But has reassured me that they may be added. I am perfectly OK without having them because they are very fast to restart the server manually.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by edelweisshosting
    But many hosts advertise 7/7 - 24/24 support, but when it comes to facts, they tend to take 4 to 10 hours to reboot
    If one of my dedicated server providers were to take 4-10 hours to reboot a server, I would no longer have a server there. This is definitely not the norm, and well below the 'industry standard'.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xcellweb Matt
    This is incorrect, it does not matter what grade/brand/standard of hardware you use, it will always be succeptable to damage from hard reboots, especially things like hard disk drives (and no, SCSI is not immune from these problems either) and memory.

    Electicity is volatile and it is in its nature to have a possibility of causing problems.

    It does matter what standard of hardware you use. For example all of my servers are Dells. They have not had a single hardware failure in around 5/6 years. It's mostly down to the PSU to.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by layer0
    I prefer traditional KVM/IP supplemented with APC strips instead of IPMI.

    IPMI doesn't always work when you need it to. In some cases, when the box is down, so is IPMI.
    Yeah, They are so useful for when theres a problem beyond a reboot. Personaly I use APC PDU, PXE (To reload operating system remotely), KVM IP Switch.

    Can do basiclay anything from anywhere.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by layer0
    I prefer traditional KVM/IP supplemented with APC strips instead of IPMI.

    IPMI doesn't always work when you need it to. In some cases, when the box is down, so is IPMI.
    That's not IPMI's fault, that's the provider's fault. IPMI is hardware based, so it's not like you CAN'T tell it to turn the server on.

    For hardware safety, IPMI is the best out there. When you can do a soft reboot over a hard reboot, it's going to be safer to do a soft reboot. IPMI allows for this. APC/KVM-IP do not, it's simply a hard reboot.
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  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by getpro
    It does matter what standard of hardware you use. For example all of my servers are Dells. They have not had a single hardware failure in around 5/6 years. It's mostly down to the PSU to.
    It does not matter, just because it has a Dell badge on the outside, it does not mean it is immune to effects from electicity.

    Yes, some components may been slightly better quality, and certain PSU's can regulate the power and have fuses that will blow in the event of a surge etc, before taking the rest of the system out, but put quite simply, if you cut the power from a hard drive, especially whilst its writing, then it will put both the component and the data at risk, no matter whether it is a Maxtor/Seagate/Hitachi/WD or it is SCSI/SATA/PATA wtc...

    Its a simple law of electricity. You cannot predict what electric will do and even with all the failsafes in the world, components will always be at risk of failiure as a result of electricity.

    I have known people who have had Dell/IBM/HP servers that have died as a result of electricity related damage, indeed one of my friends servers at LeaseWeb died just a month or so ago due to a similar problem, and it was a Dell.

    So you saying that because you have a Dell, you are not at risk, is complete and utter crap to be honest. You are as much at risk as a person who has a Supermicro system. Electricity doesnt attack a brand, it attacks whatever happens to be in the way at the time it surges etc...

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  25. #25
    Our datacenter will check the server to see why it went down and bring it backup in a manner that will be least harmful to the server and it's data. Remote reboots may prematurely stop running processes and be harmful could it not if there was a kernel or cPanel error for example?

  26. #26
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    Our datacenter will check the server to see why it went down and bring it backup in a manner that will be least harmful to the server and it's data.
    While possible, ask yourself this:
    Do I want to wait hours for some "tech" to figure out 'why it went down', or do I want my website up and running?

    Typically, servers go down for a limited number of reasons:
    -- Hardware problems (memory/cpu/fan)
    -- Load issues caused by applications that are taking too much CPU usage

    That's what it comes down to
    Now, assuming that you're running into the second issue, you've got even MORE work to deal with:
    -- What application
    -- What processes
    -- What USER
    -- What configuration

    Of course, if you're dealing with the second, well, you're dealing with something that is going to take almost forever to login. Even consoling in will take forever, because the server is too loaded down to work properly. Eventually, the server will just have to be rebooted.

    Once the server's rebooted, well, you're SOL for finding out what the problem was, because the problem is already gone. Now, there's always a slim chance the problem will come back, but, usually, not going to happen.

    While there are ways to log things such as processes running, it's not always going to give pretty information. In fact, in most cases, it won't give any information at all. Sure, sometimes it'll say "xxx application", but usually that's going to be something silly like apache or exim. THEN you have to find out who is causing that, and WHAT is causing that.

    Truly debugging issues like this can take hours to do, even when consoling. Those hours mean that your server is not accessible, and, of course, problematic. As well, those mean that your server has no email. So, the question, again, becomes do you want to wait, or do you want to have the problem resolved in a timely fashion?

    Remote reboots may prematurely stop running processes and be harmful could it not if there was a kernel or cPanel error for example?
    Not always, and given the benefits to "remote reboots", I'd choose them over waiting any day of the week.

    If PC's (or servers) were truly that sensitive to power fluctuations, then, well, there wouldn't be that many in the world today, because EVERYONE goes through them. Unfortunately, it's a fact of life. During summer months, my circuits go out probably once a month (on average) due to old wiring, yet I have never once seen it affect my PC.

    Am I saying it's "good" to do this? No, not at all, but, it's not all bad either

    Again, only selective few Remote Reboot Devices use the hard boot method anyways. More and more, we're seeing IPMI used, as well as other hardware based devices that do the job properly, sending a soft reboot signal, which does no harm to the system itself.
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  27. #27
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    I wouldn't take the chance being without the remote reboot option.
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  28. #28
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    I will buy servers without remote ports if it is not a mission critical server or the provider is quick in rebooting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xcellweb Matt
    Components are a lot more likely to suffer damage when they have the power cut then turn back on again then when they are simply restarted with the button, sue to the nature of electric.
    We once had a HDD damaged due to a restart through the APC reboot port. Luckily the HDD was raided so we managed to recover the data.

    Even though providers save costs on support, they will have higher hardware replacement costs.

  29. #29
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    what's wrong with "shutdown -r now"?


    I've never had any trouble with this method...

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by sticky
    what's wrong with "shutdown -r now"?
    A remote port is essential when your server becomes unresponsive and you can't login to issue that command.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by hyperspin
    A remote port is essential when your server becomes unresponsive and you can't login to issue that command.
    Lol, exactly my thoughts, how do you issue a command when you cannot access the server via SSH...

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  32. #32
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    Even though providers save costs on support, they will have higher hardware replacement costs.
    Wrong
    After using numerous "reboot" options for various clients over 4 years, take a guess as to how many of those have caused the hardware to have to be replaced. Go on, guess!!! Ok, ok, I'll tell you..

    none

    That's right, not a one of those have ever caused hardware to have to be replaced, and I've used a number of setups in my day (including the ugly as sin APC style). Nothing has ever caused any problems with RRP's that I have seen. I'm not saying it won't or can't happen, but the odds of this happening are, well, they're pretty damned slim. Like I said before, hardware is built to withstand this any more.


    what's wrong with "shutdown -r now"?
    Nothing, and if you can do it, of course, that's always the best possible solution. However , you can not always reboot your server this way.

    Take, for example, server load. I've had plenty of servers load out on me, beit due to I/O issues, load issues, etc. At this point, you can't login, period. OOOPS, damn, you've got to either
    A> wait for some clueless tech to go out there and reboot your server, hoping it comes back up in time
    OR
    B> use the RRP

    B is ALWAYS going to be the best option, because then you're not waiting for tickets, techs, and the like, which can cause servers to be down an additional 20-60 minutes.

    The PROPER solution to handling things is always going to be the shutdown command. If that's not possible, then you need some sort of backup. IPMI is a much better solution than that of the days of old (APC/etc), because it's NOT as cruel to your server as the others, an allows you to reboot the server properly, as it is a hardware based setup.
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  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xcellweb Matt
    Lol, exactly my thoughts, how do you issue a command when you cannot access the server via SSH...

    No where did I see that people were talking about when ssh was down....

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by sticky
    No where did I see that people were talking about when ssh was down....
    If you find your server is unresponsive, you can pretty much guarantee that SSH is going to be unresponsive too.

    I dont see why anybody would use an RRP if SSH was up and running so you could throw the shutdown command in.

    So if you think a remote reboot port is there to be used alongside the shutdown command (instead of as a last resort after all other attempts to reboot the server have failed) i somewhat question your thinking...

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  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xcellweb Matt
    If you find your server is unresponsive, you can pretty much guarantee that SSH is going to be unresponsive too.

    I dont see why anybody would use an RRP if SSH was up and running so you could throw the shutdown command in.

    So if you think a remote reboot port is there to be used alongside the shutdown command (instead of as a last resort after all other attempts to reboot the server have failed) i somewhat question your thinking...

    Funny thing is, I was answering the OP's question... So I find your eyeroll emoticon to be an insult towards me.

    Quote Originally Posted by edelweisshosting
    Hi,

    Would you use for hosting purpose a server without a remote reboot port? With many providers, reboot is only possible by ticket or messaging system.

    Thank you
    Last edited by sticky; 10-11-2006 at 10:19 AM.

  36. #36
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    Common sense and a knowledge of server and why you would require a remote reboot port will tell you that the OP means when your server becomes unresponsive.

    You know the reboot command, so I assume you have at least a basic knowledge of servers and Linux. Surely you realise that the only time you are going to use an RRP or request a manual reboot by the dc is when you cannot access the server via SSH to take it down.

    So therefore, whilst there is nothing wrong with using the comman you posted and it is perfect for most scenario's, in the scenario where an RRP or dc staff would be used, the command via SSH must not be working/SSH must not be accessible.

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