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  1. #1

    An example of how *not* to treat your customers

    There's a site for which I am webmaster. This site became unavailable the other evening, and remained down for the next 24 hours.

    This was not the first time the site had been unavailable, although ,ttbomk, the host has 9in fact been fairly reliable. Perhaps the operative phrase there is *ttbomk*.

    Anyway, after it had been down for 12 hours, I called tech support to ask what was going on and when the site would be up. The tech support fellow I spoke to started giving me a whole bunch of gobbledygook about restoring backup tapes and migrating to a different server and so on.

    That exasperated me, and I said, "Look, I really don't give a damn about your problems, what I want to know is, when will the damn site be up? Why are you restoring backups from tapes--don't you have hot backup?

    "Oh, and btw, regarding migrating? I will soon be migrating this site to a new host. You're no longer honest, or reliable."

    IOW, I thoujght the reply I got was not only insulting to my intelligence, but revealed a strong lack of intelligence on the part of the hosting company.

    I'd be very interested in seeing any comments from employees of hosting companies.

  2. #2
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    Dare I even ask how much you or the site's owner is paying each month? At least they had a backup!

    Anyway, your attitude is insulting to them. They obviously had a problem and were doing their best to fix it. How would you like them to phrase it so that it doesn't insult your intelligence?

  3. #3
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    ^^^ What cprompt said. The only insulting I can see is coming from you. And restoring from a backup and migrating sounds like what any host would do in the event of critical server failure. Unless the customer was specifically paying for it, they shouldn't expect "hot" backups.
    If you have to operate your company behind the scenes or under a fake name, maybe it's time to leave the industry and start something fresh.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by cprompt
    Dare I even ask how much you or the site's owner is paying each month? At least they had a backup!

    Anyway, your attitude is insulting to them. They obviously had a problem and were doing their best to fix it. How would you like them to phrase it so that it doesn't insult your intelligence?


    I'd recommend using the phrase "let us do our job". Afterall they're the ones being paid to host your site. If you can do it better: Do it yourself.
    Perhaps I'm a bit blunt though :/

    To the op: As previously stated at least they have backups and are making an effort to restore them.
    Things do go down from time to time and depending on how much you're paying you should have:

    a) Expect more
    b) Expect less
    c) Known what you were getting into ahead of time
    Last edited by David; 10-05-2006 at 01:12 PM.
    David
    Web hosting by Fused For businesses with more important things to do than worry about their hosting.

  5. #5
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    Before killing the poster, was there any kind of proactive communication from the hosting company? A forum, a blog, whatever isn't a form of that. You can't expect your customers to keep up with your new trends of communication. An email letting them know what is going on is sometimes necessary, and in a case when there is 12 hours of downtime and backup restoration going on, I think that falls into a scenario when an email is necessary.

    In a sense, it doesn't matter what he's paying - if a host is promising a product, with guarantee's and service levels agreements, they should meet them. While every customer should do some sort of research and comparison, you can not, and should not expect them to know what the justifiable price is, especially if they're not all that familiar with web sites and web site hosting. Sometimes you expect far too much of a customer, and to actually think someone would be calm and rational after going through 12+ hours of downtime with no proactive communication is a ridiculous expection. It seems like the growing trend here is that by offering hosting, we're doing the customers a favor. That's not the way it works, by them signing up with us, they're doing us a favor, and we should do everything in power to return it.

  6. #6
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    Please don't ever host with us. You sound like the customer from hell.

    They obviously were working to get your site back up asap. Unless you were paying a whole lotta money for a premium hosting account (customers like you never do), you were way out of line.

    --Tina
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  7. #7
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    Thanks inogenius! I agree.

    For some of you hosts that replied did you even read the OP's post completely?
    12 hours with NO communication at all? Well even in an emergency there should have been some sort of contact! It sounds as though he had no idea of any server migration, move or anything related!
    I would have been frustrated too. and my advice would be to "move"
    HostCaters.com - Quality Web Hosting - Under A Gig! - Since 1999

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Martie
    Thanks inogenius! I agree.

    For some of you hosts that replied did you even read the OP's post completely?
    12 hours with NO communication at all? Well even in an emergency there should have been some sort of contact! It sounds as though he had no idea of any server migration, move or anything related!
    I would have been frustrated too. and my advice would be to "move"
    I'm not a host, and I did read the OP's original post completely.
    Since when RUDE behavior by the OP excused by non-communication by the host?????

    It sounded to me like the OP went into with an "attitude" like he knew better than the host.

    I don't see how it is "gobbledygook" for the host to respond that they are restoring from tape, etc. It actually sounds more to me that the OP had no clue about the technical issues involved and was just throwing his weight around.

    Agree with Tina, OP sounds like a customer-from-hell.

  9. #9
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    Let's say that the web site and email are hosted on the email server. Or maybe the email server is standalone but down. How can the host send an email when said server is offline? Should the host be calling all those customers instead? There is clearly a point where the host can be proactive, but sometimes it's necessary for the customer to seek support.

    I think a system status page (that is updated primarily by humans and not some stupid monitoring bot) is always helpful, along with a system status message if the customer calls into support. Communication is definitely the key, but it's unreasonable for the host to attempt to contact every customer except via electronic means if their systems have issues.
    If you have to operate your company behind the scenes or under a fake name, maybe it's time to leave the industry and start something fresh.

  10. #10
    Sometimes emails don't work cause depending on:
    1) Whether the email is linked to the down website
    2) Whether the contact information is on the company website - which could also be down.

    In normal situations what the company has done is correct. Having dealt with customer service a lot in the past there is no way to avoid an irate customer. Perhaps allowing the OP to yell at the tech support was the first step. They could probably have solved it then after the customer had a chance to vent.

    Your not a customer I would want to deal with myself, since they could have told you anything no matter how good or bad and it wouldn't have been good enough.

    I ask the OP what he would have preferred when he called? Judging by the type of backup they probably couldn't have prioritised your site over other customers. Also if you didn't pay extra for backups or keep current backups yourselfs then you really have to deal with the type of backup they provide. Not all hosting companies provide free backups.

    I think there is probably 3 more stories in this story. The 1 from the Company, and 2 more from the OP telling the rest of the story.

    P.S. You were pretty rude to the support tech when you spoke with him. Despite popular belief, being rude and mean is not a right of a client or something that they have to take being a supplier of a service. Your lucky they even proceed to restore your sites at all. It wouldn't suprise me if the transfer didn't go "successfully"

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by cprompt
    Dare I even ask how much you or the site's owner is paying each month? At least they had a backup!

    Anyway, your attitude is insulting to them. They obviously had a problem and were doing their best to fix it. How would you like them to phrase it so that it doesn't insult your intelligence?
    His attitude is perfectly in line regardless of price; a 12 hour outage and wait without communications, that's not doing anything. If you're a so-called host and can't swap a box and restore it in 12 hours whether dedicated or shared you need find a new vocation.

  12. #12
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    Nowhere did the OP say there was no communication. Further, he says the host has been fairly reliable AND he was able to get a tech on the phone (mid-crisis, it seems) and find out exactly what was going on.

    --Tina
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by cowabunga
    His attitude is perfectly in line regardless of price; a 12 hour outage and wait without communications, that's not doing anything. If you're a so-called host and can't swap a box and restore it in 12 hours whether dedicated or shared you need find a new vocation.
    I really really hate this mentality that is okay for the customer to berate someone in customer support. Making excuses for rude behavior for the OP.

    How about civility for a change?

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by ieee488
    I really really hate this mentality that is okay for the customer to berate someone in customer support. Making excuses for rude behavior for the OP.

    How about civility for a change?
    I agree 100% as stated above. $20/mo does not give you anymore right to be rude to people. Unfortunitally it becomes more of a trophy call then solving any problems.

  15. #15
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    Personally I think the OP had a lot of B@##s for being rude to the tech who is trying to restore the server the OP is on and then tell the tech he is going to jump ship! The OP is lucky that the backup wasn't somehow "corrupted" and the tech not be able to retore his site.

    Tape backups are what you usually get from a decent host without paying extra for the service. It is pretty standard in the industry. Having a "hot backup" as you said would usually require a higher level of service and therefore a higher cost to you. Even with this, if a server has major problems (other than storage related) it won't keep your site from being down for a long period of time. If your website means so much to you that having it down 24 hours is devastating then pay to be put in a clustered environment. Believe me you will pay quite a lot for it. But then you can expect to pay dearly for redundancy.

    Dave

  16. #16
    They obviously were working to get your site back up asap. Unless you were paying a whole lotta money for a premium hosting account (customers like you never do), you were way out of line.
    How much exactly would he need to pay to treat someone like that? I don't think any amount of money would give someone the right to insult another person.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by WN-Ali
    How much exactly would he need to pay to treat someone like that? I don't think any amount of money would give someone the right to insult another person.
    The sad thing is there is no amount to make it not ok either, unfortunitally we have to deal with it. I still say that the OP is lucky that tech support is a bigger person and didn't accidentally corrupt the migration.

  18. #18
    for AH-Tina:

    You may be sure I will never move the site to your company, with your attitude.

    In fact,I'm the exact opposite of the Customer from Hell. I'm a former IT professional in some very demanding environments, so I understand this stuff. I'm actually not demanding at all, and I understand that hosting companies encounter problems.

    The problem started when I called Support at this company. The appropriate response in this situation is very simple: "We had an unusual problem, a hardware failure, and we are doing everything we can to get back on the air. We cannot predict, at this time, when that will be."

    That said....why did it take this company *24 hours* to get the site back on the air? That is totally unacceptable. Short of a major disaster to the building, or the region, can you imagine a hardware failure that would take 24 hours to restore?

    This is a major hosting company; I don't know exactly how much per month we are paying, but it's definitely not one of those cheapo companies.

  19. #19
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    "former IT professional" -- yes. The absolute worst.
    There's a reason they're being paid to host the site (By the site owner, not yourself -- just the webmaster).

    If there isn't why aren't you hosting it yourself?

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrCurious
    for AH-Tina:

    You may be sure I will never move the site to your company, with your attitude.

    In fact,I'm the exact opposite of the Customer from Hell. I'm a former IT professional .

    Translation: I know how to do your job better than you do!!!! (then do it yourself)

    Just saw David's post...yes, IT pros are either very sympathetic or nightmare customers. Guess which category you fall into?

    How much, exactly, were you paying per month for this account? What were you trying to accomplish by being an *** to the tech support guy who was trying to help you?

    --Tina
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  21. #21
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    I'm a former IT professional in some very demanding environments, so I understand this stuff.
    The tech support fellow I spoke to started giving me a whole bunch of gobbledygook about restoring backup tapes and migrating to a different server and so on.
    Anyone see a minor discrepancy?

    That said....why did it take this company *24 hours* to get the site back on the air? That is totally unacceptable. Short of a major disaster to the building, or the region, can you imagine a hardware failure that would take 24 hours to restore?
    24 hours really isn't that bad. Granted it's not terrific, but 24 hours turnaround for hardware replacement is quite good to be completely honest.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by nocebo
    Anyone see a minor discrepancy?



    24 hours really isn't that bad. Granted it's not terrific, but 24 hours turnaround for hardware replacement is quite good to be completely honest.
    I noticed the discrepancy, but gave the OP the benefit of the doubt.

    If he's in a budget shared hosting environment (he isn't even sure how much he's paying), then 24 hours for hardware replacement and data restoration isn't horribly unreasonable. Inconvenient and leaning towards the edge of "too long", probably. But certainly not the tech's fault and certainly not cause to rip him a new one.

    Also, I'm curious, what are the company's communication methods? Do they have a news area, email customers with updates, live chat, etc.? Obviously, he was able to get very fast information via a simple phone call. How many hosts simply unplug the phone or let it go to voice mail in a crisis?

    --Tina
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  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by AH-Tina
    How many hosts simply unplug the phone or let it go to voice mail in a crisis?
    Notice the problem here? You're comparing yourselves to hosts who shouldn't be compared to. You shouldn't strive to be better than an awful host - you should strive to be better than the best of hosts.

  24. #24
    I still say that the OP is lucky that tech support is a bigger person and didn't accidentally corrupt the migration.
    I was about to post that the tech could've **accidentally ** corrupted your backup.

  25. #25
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    As with most hosting companies, something that I didn't see mentioned here, is the fact that you're a webmaster for another party, and that person is actually the client experiencing downtime. That being the case, tech support actually has no responsibility to you directly as a 3rd party member, however it appears from your statement, they took the time to explain in depth a problem, but you failed to post entirely what the problem was, only that they were restoring data from tape backups to get your sites back up and running.

    As a former IT professional, what steps did you take directly to ensure the utmost uptime of the site? Do you have current daily backups? Did you opt for 3rd party DNS services so that in the event of a downtime or disaster you could easily move the site within a 10 to 15 minute window? With automated setups nowadays, and rapid DNS transfer, the site could have easily been moved already even on a new signup in a short period of time.

    The hardware issue, if it's being restored from tape, could most likely be an entirely corrupted server. I've seen RAID cards fry before, wiping all data from multiple SCSI HD's, blowing power supplies, and essentially killing whole machines. Restorations in my experience from tape is a slower process than from HD's directly, and it has a set order of restoration.

    Just as everyone has expectations of their provider, one must also place equal responsibility on themselves, and be able to deploy backup measures of their own in the same timeframe that they would expect from their provider. In my experience, the majority of clients do in fact want the smallest details of processes explained so as to fully understand the situation and be able to pass that along to their clients. A simple "the server's down, we're working on it, should be up in some timeframe but we're not sure when" isn't going to cut it as explaining the entire situation and what they're doing to fix it.

    There's really 2 sides (3 on WHT) to a story, that is the customer's, the providers, and somewhere in between. Take a moment to consider other people's posts, and hopefully things work out for you and your site here shortly.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by AH-Tina
    Nowhere did the OP say there was no communication. Further, he says the host has been fairly reliable AND he was able to get a tech on the phone (mid-crisis, it seems) and find out exactly what was going on.

    --Tina

    Heres the part though that I find "unacceptable" and I will add that I would call this "no communication"
    <snip>
    Anyway, after it had been down for 12 hours, I called tech support to ask what was going on and when the site would be up. The tech support fellow I spoke to started giving me a whole bunch of gobbledygook about restoring backup tapes and migrating to a different server and so on.
    </end snip>
    1. 12 hour downtime with no word from your host?
    2. Migrating to a different server? wheres the notification to the client here?

    I will agree the OP was put out.....most clients would be though if they went through 12+ hours downtime with no word from their host....then find out they are migrating you to another server?
    HostCaters.com - Quality Web Hosting - Under A Gig! - Since 1999

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Martie
    Heres the part though that I find "unacceptable" and I will add that I would call this "no communication"
    <snip>
    Anyway, after it had been down for 12 hours, I called tech support to ask what was going on and when the site would be up. The tech support fellow I spoke to started giving me a whole bunch of gobbledygook about restoring backup tapes and migrating to a different server and so on.
    </end snip>
    1. 12 hour downtime with no word from your host?
    2. Migrating to a different server? wheres the notification to the client here?

    I will agree the OP was put out.....most clients would be though if they went through 12+ hours downtime with no word from their host....then find out they are migrating you to another server?
    After reading OP's posts in this thread, I don't believe much of what he has written except that his website is/was down. I am surprise you believe him.

    I am a webmaster myself. I keep my own backups of my clients' sites. Any webmaster worth anything does.

  28. #28
    I still think there is more to the story, but I guess we might never know the another side

  29. #29
    1. OP had every right to be annoyed and angry after 24 hours with no communiction from the host.

    2. OP had no right to be rude.

    3. Host had no business going 24 hours without communicating with customers. This is a big reason why you don't host your customers on the same server (or even in the same datacenter) as your support server.
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  30. #30
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    Again, there is no indication that the host was non-communicative or that the host's website was down. The OP had the host's phone number. Did he get it from the host's website? Did the host have a news section? Did the host send out emails to their customers (the OP already admitted he's not the actual customer)?

    The OPs story is lacking some crucial details. Stop saying the host didn't communicate until we get more information.

    --Tina
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  31. #31
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    You know I am the customer from hell myself, I have very little patience with techs when my ISP dies. Mostly because they read off the same script and try and get me to reset all my Internet Explorer options even though I don't use IE.

    I have a few customers that come off the rails at me if there is down time, I listen I shake my head I agree with them and let them cuss me while trying to keep in mind that if it was me I would probably be worse.

    Hey guys we are web host that is what we signed up for, as long as someone does not get too personal they have a right to get mad and cuss a little when down time is extended.

    Now that being said the thread starter should also relaize that the host was probably under a lot of stress too and was doing everything they could to get the sites back on line and yelling at them really does not make it easier on them or get your sites back on line any faster. Sometimes things are out of their direct control. For instance they may have leased servers at servermatrix and during a hardware crash and OS reload servermatrix assumes that 48 hour reloads are fine and no amount of pleading yelling or begging makes a difference to them.
    So your host may have been at the mercy of the data center he is leasing servers from.

    In those circumstances it is best to try and stay cool listen to what the guy was trying to tell you, I am sure that the outcome for both of you would have been better and less stressful.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Techark
    Hey guys we are web host that is what we signed up for, as long as someone does not get too personal they have a right to get mad and cuss a little when down time is extended.
    You're right that we are webhosts, but that doesn't make us doormats.

    As a host yourself, you should know that people telling you "I know what I am doing" does not mean they do. I have dealt with many people in the past who told me "No point checking that, I've checked that already" and when I ask them to just humour me, I get a response like "Oh, I forgot I changed that", "My wife must have changed that" or similar. The tech is doing their job and unless they know for sure that you know what you are doing, they need to assume that you do not. They would get their head bit off if they sent a tech out to fix your machine and found the problem was one of those IE settings.

  33. #33
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    Considering I use Linux I doubt they are going to find any IE settings on my machine breaking anything.

    I know what you are saying and no we are not doormats but we are service providers and when we fail to provide that service then the customers have a right to vent a little.

    As long as they do not get personal and start calling my wife names etc.. they can throw a cuss word out there.

  34. #34
    So what exactly did happen? (if the OP will explain all the details...)

  35. #35
    Seems to me that the OP is leaving out many details. For one, it's his word alone that states there was no communication. No whether there was or not depends on if you take him at his word. I've learned over time here at WHT to almost NEVER take things on face value...

    1) Since he's NOT the owner and only the webmaster, they could have very well informed the actually owner.

    2) Emails are poor communicators to begin with, add to that outdated email addresses, spam blockers, etc.. and you can never be 100% certain your clients get notified anyway

    3) Forums are good, but you find the a majority of users never bother to look in them, they just call or open tickets

    Seems to me the OP is not handing us the full story and it's cropped to fit his worldview. Don't know the host in question, so no one can judge based on past knowledge of that host either.

    IMHO, 1 major outage and saying they were very reliable till then is NOT cause for whining here at WHT and looking for a new host....seems tad over-reactive.

  36. #36
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    My favorite experience... I was working support during the graveyard shift, and we received a monitoring alert that a customer's website was unavailable. First step is to verify the alert. The site is showing a maintenance page. In pretty websites, a server error (http 500) will return a maintenance page rather than an ugly bomb, so I begin troubleshooting.

    The account notes say that if anything becomes unavailable, use normal procedures to troubleshoot. Past 20 minutes, contact So-and-so as he's the maintainer. So-and-so won't answer. I get a call from So-and-so's CTO during this period, and he sounds like he's in bed.

    CTO - "Why has my site been down 20 minutes?!?"
    Me - "We did receive a timely alert, and I have been investigating."
    CTO - "Investigating isn't fixing the GD site!! Is it a firewall problem? What?! The pages are timing out on me!"
    Me - *Having already seen the maintenance page, and genuinely curious* "Could you give me the URL that is timing out?"
    CTO - "Uhh, no."
    Me - "I'm seeing a maintenance page, and have tried contacting So-and-so for the past 15 minutes."
    CTO - "Oh. Then I'm speaking to the wrong person." *click*

    No apology. But it sure was rewarding to find out the next day that So-and-so actually was working on the site, had taken it down, and it was a miscommunication on their end. I'm sure that CTO's attitude (and page timeout bluff) made him feel like a retard.

    I love hosting.

  37. #37
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    Jammo,

    You're missing out on the budget hosting realm!
    I'm at about 18 death threats and counting (all for previous companies).

    Then again I'm also at three marriage proposals...

  38. #38
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    Yeah, this guy was the CTO of a company whose name is on a card in many, many people's wallets; insurance-wise. I've actually only had a few bad experiences with customers, and I've worked at my company for a year next month.

    I haven't had any marriage proposals yet, but have been called a lifesaver more times than I can count, including today! I really do love hosting.

  39. #39
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    2 marriage proposals
    many, many dinner date offers
    Several amazon gift certificates
    1 death threat
    3 law suits (dropped before they ever went to court, because they were ridiculous)
    many, many *threatened* law suits
    1 beautiful gift basket with cookies, wine, muffins, etc.
    many various gifts

    ....and only 1 temporary nervous breakdown!

    --Tina
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  40. #40
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    David, AH-Tina,

    How long should I expect to work in hosting before receiving a death threat or marriage proposal? I am male, so I imagine the latter would be less likely. It's been a year for me. How 'bout yourselves?

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