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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aussie Bob
    I can't remember who said it, but they said any businessman could build a successful hosting brand with any type of control panel.
    This is not correct. This is not even possible. Try to use one of those less popular control panels then (such as Bankoi Linux Control Panel, web tools, hosting app, etc). This is like saying any businessman could build a succesful hosting brands with any type of servers or even costumer service. Tye to use your marketing, entrepreneurial and business skills, if you can.

    You have to have a decent software and hardware, if s not the best.

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by hcn
    You have to have a decent software and hardware, if s not the best.
    I've worked on many servers and I have seen successfull hosts run on anything from top notch hardware to bargain basement desktop wannabe servers.
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  3. #83
    IMO success (define that in terms of revenu/profits etc) would come down to marketing, entrepreneurial and business skills, and not the control panel being used.
    Dont get me wrong Bob, I agree with you - however, a control panel can certainly influence the revenue/profit relationships

    This is not correct. This is not even possible. Try to use one of those less popular control panels then (such as Bankoi Linux Control Panel, web tools, hosting app, etc).
    Well, I am not certain you can say this. Look at pair - they certainly do not have one of the better control panels, yet they have built a hugely successful business (sorry pair, love your business model but hate your CP)

    Another example is dreamhost - horrible CP, but, successful none the less...

    *tips hat to all those successful hosts using ensim.
    LOL

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by pixelized
    I've worked on many servers and I have seen successfull hosts run on anything from top notch hardware to bargain basement desktop wannabe servers.
    Google being in the latter. They've realized, correctly, that hardware will eventually fail, so spending more money with decreasing benefits towards uptime doesn't make sense. If you have properly designed software, hardware failure will be an integral part of it's design and it will be able to completely work around that.

    With the right software, you can run your hosting company on eMachines and have terrific service.
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  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by ukhostingco
    I agree with extras, I would place far more trust in a hosting company that has developed it's own feature rich control panel than a third party service. This demonstrates the level of competance of the host.
    That works as long as you are not building a hosting business. Think what moving will be like.

  6. #86
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    I think cpanel has a decent setup and like anything it relies on the nut behind the wheel if it does it job well or not. IF you have auto update on and/or edge release well then....nice knowing you

    I agree with aussiebob on this one. As long as your control panel is easy to use, reliable and geared towards your target market it should not matter much what you choose. People get so wrapped up in the fan clubs around here and ignore what is right for their business and end up failing.

    We use to use cpanel but due to our needs and company growing at a good rate we decided to move to H-Sphere because in our path it definately will be better in the long run. Cpanel served it's purpose and we can shake hands and move on, no hard feelings but they did not support the clustering and high tech automation we are going to need for one of our large projects we are doing now.

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by AvailNetworks
    I think cpanel has a decent setup and like anything it relies on the nut behind the wheel if it does it job well or not. IF you have auto update on and/or edge release well then....nice knowing you

    I agree with aussiebob on this one. As long as your control panel is easy to use, reliable and geared towards your target market it should not matter much what you choose. People get so wrapped up in the fan clubs around here and ignore what is right for their business and end up failing.

    We use to use cpanel but due to our needs and company growing at a good rate we decided to move to H-Sphere because in our path it definately will be better in the long run. Cpanel served it's purpose and we can shake hands and move on, no hard feelings but they did not support the clustering and high tech automation we are going to need for one of our large projects we are doing now.
    I'm with you. It's tough enough to figure out a control panel that fits your business without rose-colored glasses on.

    I was thinking Plesk, but I would love to benefit from your knowledge of H-Sphere and the reasons you chose that. I know nothing about it or Helm for that matter.

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by extras
    One advantage of heavy and slow software such as Windows, cPanel, PHP and its apps

    Windows heavy and slow? In terms of speed and efficiency Win32/IIS outperforms your regular CentOS/Apache box.

    Back to the subject at hand; I likewise dislike cPanel as an administrator, if I had to use a control panel I'd use DA as my experiences with it thus far have been pretty good.

    Let's get down to why I dislike cPanel as a whole:

    Apache 1.3

    Why? Why not use Apache 2, or better 2.2.x? The performance increase versus 1.x and 2.x has been proven to be rather signicant, is it not time to upgrade already?

    Customising software:

    I'd like to be able to customise my software, such as compiling whatever Apache version I want, however this I can't do as cPanel has its arms wrapped firmly around my ability to freely administrate without breaking something.

    Inefficiency & load:

    Unless you use rather high end software, there is a considerable amount of load added to your server when multiple users are accessing the cPanel interface, mainly as it's written mostly in Perl and Perl is notorious for being rather resource heavy.


    HOWEVER! And being a big however, cPanel is a great product at the end of the day. Despite its obvious flaws it pleases clients, which lets face it is the goal of a control panel in the first place, secondly all I care about is having an API which automatically adds my entries to BIND, Apache, Exim etc without me having to manually intervene, this is the ultimate goal of a control panel.

    At the end of the day cPanel serves its purpose, but if you expect it to replace the need for decent server administration, security and upgrades then you're in for a bunch of trouble.

    Can't say I've had a whole load of trouble with cPanel either although I have used it extensively. However, it still has it's flaws but doesn't anything.

    For the general end user cPanel is the best product on the market, that is undeniable.
    Last edited by Jeff - Exceed; 09-27-2006 at 08:56 PM.

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff - Exceed
    For the general end user cPanel is the best product on the market, that is undeniable.
    You were doing so good until this. You would have to go pretty far back on this forum to find a single instance where a new user who has never used a control panel liked cPanel if they also demoed the competition. It's easily the most confusing and illogical interface of any software that I've ever seen. I'm the only one still on a cPanel server by us. Everyone else is on DA.

    I love working with DA, as do the users, but from a long-range hosting perspective, neither DA nor cPanel are the answer. Users also like Plesk a lot, and it's scalable. In theory, SW-Soft has quite a lineup of large-hoster supporting software. I'd like to learn about H-Sphere too.

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff - Exceed
    Apache 1.3

    Why? Why not use Apache 2, or better 2.2.x? The performance increase versus 1.x and 2.x has been proven to be rather signicant, is it not time to upgrade already?
    EasyApache 2.0 is coming and features Apache 2.x support. It's already in the EDGE builds if you want to give it a shot.

    Customising software:

    I'd like to be able to customise my software, such as compiling whatever Apache version I want, however this I can't do as cPanel has its arms wrapped firmly around my ability to freely administrate without breaking something.
    Not sure exactly what you mean here. EasyApache 2.0 also includes a TON more compile time options for Apache and PHP. We've been throwing custom stuff into Apache for a while now. Mod_security, FastCGI, etc are all custom things that we rely on and they work just fine with cPanel. It doesn't get in the way at all.
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  11. #91
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    *tips hat to all those successful hosts using ensim.
    Quote Originally Posted by CartikaHosting
    LOL
    They actually do exist *looks at unitedhosting.co.uk*

  12. #92
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    Cool

    H-sphere is a cool concept but it recently had it's own hole-patch I noticed somewhere.
    I looked at it closely and I presume since some people like CartikaHosting base their business on it, that it must "deliver". It is however a solution for multi-service providers integrating many functions into one. Even P-soft will tell you it doesn't start to "shine" until you have 5-6 servers running different things with it and the more servers the more it "shines".
    It concerns me a little that it is "all things" (billing, account creation, VPS, Windows & *nix server management, site builder, under one "hood" ) so there is the potential one thing could affect everything however if everything works as they say it is a "total" solution for hosting; replacing separate billing & provisioning systems, site builders, VPS systems, and even decides when provisioning a new account which server can most efficiently handle it (example you have 3 Windows servers, new user signs up for plan "A" , H-sphere knows what that account's resource demand is, picks server with best resources available for it... not load balancing but helping keep the admins from having to do as much manual juggling between servers to maintain more equal loads)
    Very interesting software for the host that's growing & wants to have an "all in one" package and the ability to add Windows & *nix servers both at will.
    Another downside could be licensing costs but not so much if as they told me you are using it to replace several people and a lot of man hours & other programs through automation.
    Unlike cPanel it is not recommended for installation on a single server or "lower-end" server because it is intended for multi-server management (and what good are all those features if you tried to have them on a single Celeron )
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  13. #93
    Hello DDT, I really do not want this to turn into a cpanel vs hsphere discussion - however, I would like to touch on a couple of our points:

    H-sphere is a cool concept but it recently had it's own hole-patch I noticed somewhere.
    Certainly, everything has holes and patches are constantly being released, as with every software

    it doesn't start to "shine" until you have 5-6 servers running different things with it and the more servers the more it "shines"
    Agreed - however, there are still benefits in a single server situation that do not exist with something like cpanel (automation, etc) - however, the biggest benefit in a single server environment is the capability to seamlessly cluster and expand

    It concerns me a little that it is "all things" (billing, account creation, VPS, Windows & *nix server management, site builder, under one "hood" ) so there is the potential one thing could affect everything
    I have never really seen anything like this. Sure there have been some control panel issues, bad patches, upgrades that havent gone well, etc - however, the largest benefit is that we have been able to take the control panel server down, fix the problems then bring it back up. The difference is, no other services were down during this time (ie you have the capability of bringing the CP down while keeping websites and other services up) - so, although it is never a good thing when a service like control panel is unavailable - people are still in business and honestly, the complaints are far and few between when it is just the control panel that is down, while every other service is up (especially when the control panel maintenance window is announced)

    and even decides when provisioning a new account which server can most efficiently handle it (example you have 3 Windows servers, new user signs up for plan "A" , H-sphere knows what that account's resource demand is, picks server with best resources available for it...
    That would be an interesting feature - though, I am not sure if we would use it. The way it actually works is the admin designates which servers are available for new signups and will round robin assign accounts across those servers.

    not load balancing
    Seamless and integrated load balancing is available - we are in fact looking at adding this to email servers. The problem is the associated cost - and I am not sure the market will pay double to have everything load balanced - as the benefits from 99.9%+ to 99.99%+ really arent significant enough to most people (aie the market segment is much smaller) - so, I am not yet convinced that it is a feasible business model - at least in our space. having said this, I believe we can load balance critical services like mail - and the market would be willing to pay a slight increase in order to achieve even more reliable mail service

    Another downside could be licensing costs but not so much if as they told me you are using it to replace several people and a lot of man hours & other programs through automation.
    Honestly, once you factor in all costs, the licensing fees for hsphere are negligible...

    Anyway, I apologize for having an hpshere discussion in this thread, however, I did want to touch on some of your points, as I think you had some misconceptions in some areas

  14. #94
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    Cool

    Thanks, I wasn't doing a one vs. the other post. It's been several years since I talked to them and I've slept since then but they did mention the fact that on a single server (if it was a good one) the ability to expand easily was a big plus. Like I said I'm sure it's good but it's in a class by itself compared to all the other "panels" discussed here so maybe the person with the questions about it should start a new thread in the forum for those topics. I knew your company would know a lot about it being a h-sphere "partner" company.
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  15. #95
    Thanks, I wasn't doing a one vs. the other post.
    I know - I just wanted to make sure it didnt go in that direction (and I was saying that as much to myself as to you )

  16. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aussie Bob
    *tips hat to all those successful hosts using ensim.
    Thanks Bob

    I have to say that we absolutely LOVE admining our Ensim servers... From a press release Ensim made a couple of weeks ago which I commented on:

    More importantly, Ensim is the only panel which measures up to our security requirements". "We wouldn't trust any other software to manage our hosting environment."
    The way Ensim handles each site in its own secure filesystem is stunning, nobody can take that away from Ensim no matter what gripes they have.

  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by UH-Matt
    The way Ensim handles each site in its own secure filesystem is stunning, nobody can take that away from Ensim no matter what gripes they have.
    Not to start an argument here (as I am not competent in questions of server security), but I thought others might be interested to know Cpanel Nick's view on chrooted environment posted two years back on Cpanel forums :

    A proper chroot system requires a complete copy of all the system libs in a virtual dir.

    To make sure every perl and php script runs, you'll need to make sure you have a copy of the perl and php modules installed as well.

    If you want apache to run inside the root for each user, you'll have to give up pre-forking, and take a large performace hit.

    If you want a true chroot system, expect about 1.5 gigs extra for account and about 1/2 the http performance.

    Linux chroot() isn't secure anyways. Once you obtain root in the chroot you can easily get out anyways.

    The complete topic is here: http://forums.cpanel.net/showthread.php?t=18902

  18. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by CartikaHosting
    Anyway, I apologize for having an hpshere discussion in this thread, however, I did want to touch on some of your points, as I think you had some misconceptions in some areas
    This is interesting. You're generating quite a bit of interestin H-Sphere in my mind. I may want to put H-Sphere on our next couple of servers. Before I do that, I'd like to try a reseller program somewhere. However, if I do that, how easy is it to take my accounts and setups to the new servers if it turns out that I like H-Sphere?

    One thing mentioned earlier was that it is better for shared hosting than a VPSs like Virtuozzo. I was wondering though, why would VPSs look any different to H-Sphere than real servers or is that mostly a Virtuozzo and not all virtual hosting environments would have the problem? (E.G. I would think you could install H-Sphere on a virtual machine the same as on a real machine.)

    If someone did try it on one server, is it a resource killer?

    Can someone expand from one server without too much weeping and gnashing of teeth, and do they have documentation on strategies to do so?

  19. #99
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    Here's a post made last night on the full disclosure mailing list about that previous hole: http://lists.grok.org.uk/pipermail/f...er/049778.html

    He says he found 2 more holes while searching for this one. Interesting stuff.

  20. #100
    If someone did try it on one server, is it a resource killer?
    You can run it on a single server without issue, however, you may not want to run it on a VPS - the CP service is a little too heavy for most VPS situations.

    Can someone expand from one server without too much weeping and gnashing of teeth, and do they have documentation on strategies to do so?
    Yes, you can pretty much seamlessly cluster and expand as required.

    However, if I do that, how easy is it to take my accounts and setups to the new servers if it turns out that I like H-Sphere?
    It would be a manual process for that move. Ironically enough, it is automated to move from cpanel to hsphere, but not from hsphere to hsphere.

  21. #101
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    We used to use Cpanel for a long time until 3 years ago. It was just becoming a heache. Revaluated with other admin panels and Hsphere was a much better solution (we were expanding so it was woth the time) over the past 3 years Hsphere became more and more stable and reliable. I certainly recommend.
    You can even import cpanel accounts which is nice.
    getting it to work requires some work (RTFM). Once it is up, it is nice and smooth.
    Psoft support is great if you ever have any issues.
    For now, I have to say, Hsphere really rocks.
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  22. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by ad572
    Am I off base in these thoughts?
    Do you remember CPanel 3? As in version 3? If you don't, then you don't really know what bad is. The current versions of CPanel are really good. The problems you've seen are likely from clueless providers as much as they are from CPanel.

    If you pay attention, running a CPanel server is really easy, and rarely should it go down due to problems. (I know I've been doing it for 5+ years now.)

    The fact that hackers target CPanel is a sign of its popularity. Same as Windows XP. Its not that Mac OS X is _that_ much more secure - its that hacking XP gives a hacker a 15x fold increase in targets.

    So, in a nutshell, CPanel isn't perfect, but its pretty good. I recommend sticking with it.

    Take care,

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  23. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by CartikaHosting
    . . . Ironically enough, it is automated to move from cpanel to hsphere, but not from hsphere to hsphere.
    I've wondered as to why that is the case. I think the h-sphere developers didn't want to make it too easy for h-sphere clients to jump between h-sphere hosts, so h-sphere hosts couldn't "poach" from other h-sphere hosts. If there's poaching to be done, they prefer it was done on the cpanel hosts.

    My theory.
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  24. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harmolodic
    Not to start an argument here (as I am not competent in questions of server security), but I thought others might be interested to know Cpanel Nick's view on chrooted environment posted two years back on Cpanel forums :

    The complete topic is here: http://forums.cpanel.net/showthread.php?t=18902
    Correct but...

    Harddrives are huge these days and I think extra space requirements is a very small price to pay for system security dont you?

    Performance would only be affected if your stuffing the server full of unlimited domain plans...

    ... Any host selling realistic hosting packages will find their model works perfectly on Ensim based hosting environments. Its just a case of keeping everything in perspective and being realistic.

    Of course a cpanel person is going to try and put down a chroot environment, becuase there competitor has made it happen, but if disk space and performance are the only two (very week) arguments they have managed to come up with then Ensim is a winner

  25. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by CartikaHosting
    It would be a manual process for that move. Ironically enough, it is automated to move from cpanel to hsphere, but not from hsphere to hsphere.
    That pretty much maps my strategy then. Try a site or two somewhere and if they work fine, setup a new server or two on H-Sphere and go from there.

    It looks like Windows doesn't work for the starting point. We currently use FreeBSD, but then there is also Linux. Does it matter if you start on FreeBSD or Linux?

    Other than twice the licensing cost, can I easily have two servers sharing a load and if one goes bad, than the sites remain running including e-mail, FTP, etc.?

    The licensing looks like a 1-time $4.50 per domain, and that is reusable for the next domain?

    What about parking domains, e-mail only domains, do they take a license?

    What about system-wide, server-wide, and domain-wide off-site backup and restore? How easy is that?

    How easy is it to do software upgrades like PHP and Apache without making problem for the control panel?

    Do they have anything like Installatron?

  26. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by UH-Matt
    ... but if disk space and performance are the only two (very week) arguments they have managed to come up with then Ensim is a winner

    Actually it was Nick's third argument that seemed the most worrying, at least to a person not entirely knowledgeable on matters of Linux chroot

    Linux chroot() isn't secure anyways. Once you obtain root in the chroot you can easily get out anyways.

  27. #107
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    Yep - if your not knowledgeable and something worries you, you should read up on it or ask your host, rather than trust what someone who doesnt use the system says

  28. #108
    Good point, but sometimes it is better to leave such discussions to the experts and listen to their recommendations. I would certainly be happy to receive more input from the WHT community, preferably with some argumentation

    Based on vulnerability statistics, Ensim's security appears to be superior, but it is still not perfect. Didn't Ensim Pro have a privilege escalation vulnerability not that far ago? This is where I like the idea shared by many that when security is truly your #1 priority and you do not worry about disk storage, performance and higher costs in general, complete virtualization would seem like a less half-done solution.

  29. #109
    Just wanted to express my opinion on this interesting matter

    I've been using Cpanel for the longest time and Plesk recently.

    When it comes to security for control panels, I think all control panels are really "technically equilvalent". My reasoning behind that is, usually the most used software will be the one that is exploited and therefore causing security issues. There has been long discussions that Microsoft Windows is insecure versus Linux. I don't believe that is a valid comparison, look at the number of users of Windows vs Linux and then you will see why there are security flaws. Is because things are commonly used therefore people find ways to exploit openings. Just like Cpanel vs Plesk,Ensim,Helm, DAdmin, etc ,etc. Cpanel definitely is the most used control panel and probably has the most "known" security issues. But thats mainly because it is most used. If Plesk was the most used control panel out there, I am sure it would be rated the worst control panel for security as well. Same applies with the Windows vs Linux example. If the entire world was using Linux, I am sure more security exploits would be found over Windows.
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    That reminds me its kind of like virus scanning programs. Norton/mcafee vs. the unknown scanners....

  31. #111
    Just wanted to give my two cents.

    cPanel has been my favorite control panel for quite some time now. Haven't had the problems you've mentioned, so I'm reluctant to letting it go.

  32. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by IT_Architect
    The licensing looks like a 1-time $4.50 per domain, and that is reusable for the next domain?

    What about parking domains, e-mail only domains, do they take a license?

    What about system-wide, server-wide, and domain-wide off-site backup and restore? How easy is that?

    How easy is it to do software upgrades like PHP and Apache without making problem for the control panel?

    Do they have anything like Installatron?
    1. Actually, it's 1 license = 1 customer. That customer (license) can hold an infinite ammount of domains under it (unless the plan dictates otherwise) and it is reusable should that customer cancel. You can also get cheaper pricing going through an authorized reseller of them.

    2. Unless they are in their own end-user account, no.

    3. Backups are very easy - you can set up an rsync (or other script of your choice) to automatically backup the data at whatever interval you would like. You can also use a commercial solution if you choose.

    4. Psoft generally won't support custom installs like that. However, it's not *too* difficult to custom compile PHP (just needs the installation of a few packages before hand).

    5. Yes - it's called EasyApps.
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    Thanks TONS! for those answers.

  34. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by IT_Architect
    Thanks TONS! for those answers.
    Not a problem
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  35. #115
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    You can run H-Sphere on a single server without issue, however, you may not want to run it on a VPS - the CP service is a little too heavy for most VPS situations.
    However, from what I'm now reading, the control panel service runs on only one server instead of on each server, is that correct or no?

  36. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by IT_Architect
    However, from what I'm now reading, the control panel service runs on only one server instead of on each server, is that correct or no?
    That is correct. However, the CP server itself can cluster if it has to.
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  37. #117
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    318
    Quote Originally Posted by mripguru
    That is correct. However, the CP server itself can cluster if it has to.
    The control panel can be clustered meaning that it doesn't cost more than the additional install fee and it is automatic where you don't need to put in place your own measures to synchronize databases?

    If you cluster other servers, such as e-mail or simply hosting servers, you do pay additional license fees or not, since it is licensed per user?

    Please correct any mis perceptions:
    - H-Sphere is account based similar to ModernBill. For that reason, you won't be using it to sell domains apart from hosting accounts because of the cost.
    - To support the smooth scaling and roll-outs, you need to stick pretty much with the stock configuration.
    - It COULD work fine with VPSs, such as Virtuozzo, as long as they are not running the control panel process and they are running a compatible operating system. However, the problem with VPSs is if you allow people to install things that mess up H-Sphere's management of the server. If you don't allow them to do this, then it takes away the main advantage of a VPS.
    - I'm guessing that the accounts and billing are as automatic as packages such as AWBS or ModernBill.
    Last edited by IT_Architect; 10-03-2006 at 03:22 PM.

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