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  1. #1
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    Do/Did you trust your host when you signup at first time?

    Hello,

    Some hosts collect Credit Card information and they charge every some period depend on billing cycle and other provide 3rd party Credit Card processing such as 2CO which mean you don't have to provide Credit Card information to hosts and those 3rd party Credit Card processing companies manage them which mean more secure.

    But there is few advantages on collecting Credit Card information by hosts which are; you don't have to worry about login your billing area and pay invoice every billing cycle because they will charge your CC automatically. and it also provide faster processing time than 3rd party Credit Card processing companies.

    But 3rd Party Credit Card processing companies need you to login your billing area and pay invoice every cycle, no auto charges, so if you forget about invoice date or miss invoice email, your host account might suspend without you are knowing it.

    As customer, which do you choose or recommanded?

    Thanks

  2. #2
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    I prefer to login on billing area and pay the invoice, I've had times when I forget the invoice date but most companies remind you of paying it. I dont like when they charge automatically every cycle cause I've read alot of bad experiences with it, aside, those hosts who collect CC information allow me to just give the info but I still have to approve payments and not let them to charge me automatically.

  3. #3
    I dont like when they charge automatically every cycle cause I've read alot of bad experiences with it
    Regardless of what you have heard, you should NEVER pay for a service with a 3rd party payment processor. It really makes no difference to your provider (as long as you pay your bills) - but, nothing bad can happen to you if you pay with a credit card. You can ALWAYS call your credit card provider in case of a problem and reverse the charges if need be. Paying for a service with a 3rd party payment processor (ie paypal or 2CO) is a very very bad decision. You have zero rights when paying for a service and you open yourself up to the possibility of fraud.

    We only started accepting paypal payments because ALOT of customers requested it - but frankly, you have zero protection and should never pay for a service with paypal or any similar 3 party processing solution
    www.cartika.com
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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by CartikaHosting
    Regardless of what you have heard, you should NEVER pay for a service with a 3rd party payment processor. It really makes no difference to your provider (as long as you pay your bills) - but, nothing bad can happen to you if you pay with a credit card. You can ALWAYS call your credit card provider in case of a problem and reverse the charges if need be. Paying for a service with a 3rd party payment processor (ie paypal or 2CO) is a very very bad decision. You have zero rights when paying for a service and you open yourself up to the possibility of fraud.
    You have to be joking? What you have said here is total and utter rubbish.

    You have the exact same rights when paying a host through Paypal as you do when paying a host directly, assuming you have used a credit card for both purchases.

    If anything, you have MORE protection when going through a third party as the host has absolutley no way to charge your card unless you authorise it.

  5. #5
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    I dont think it does matter as long as it is an established business.

    Further, id prefer 3rd party instead of a small company to charge my cc. At least a bid 3rd party (such as 2co) is more established and secure and trustable

  6. #6
    You have to be joking? What you have said here is total and utter rubbish.

    You have the exact same rights when paying a host through Paypal as you do when paying a host directly, assuming you have used a credit card for both purchases.

    I advise you research this more thoroughly - paypal and other 3PP offers ZERO protection for a service purchase

    If anything, you have MORE protection when going through a third party as the host has absolutley no way to charge your card unless you authorise it.
    Tell this to the 1000's of people who have prepaid for a year then their host disappeared

    If you do not understand the payment processing industry, that is fine - but, the fact the the customer approves each and every purchase through a 3PP is an illusion of control and safety - in actuality - whether the payment is automatic or not is irrelavent - the only thing that is important is the channel with which the payment was made... many companies (ie VISA and MC will not accept a chargeback from a paypal payment - the only real exception is AMEX - and even they will not guarantee a chargeback from a paypal payment)
    www.cartika.com
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  7. #7
    The whole point of a third party is often for that added layer of trust / protection. They are held to some very strict standards by the credit card companies, they monitor for fraud, and they often spend millions protecting your data. You do not forego any rights by using paypal (assuming your funding source is a credit card), as you would by paying directly via a credit card. In fact, PayPal facilitates communication between you and the seller. Should that not be ample, you can then resort to the standard channels via your respective credit card provider/ issuing bank.

    Another great thing about these third party providers is that they watch over their merchants. If they notice continual abuse or complaints, then they will not let that merchant use their services any further.

  8. #8
    Further, id prefer 3rd party instead of a small company to charge my cc. At least a bid 3rd party (such as 2co) is more established and secure and trustable
    More established and trustable then whom? then the host? sure - maybe - but, that is really irrelavent - they are not more trustable then Visa or MC or AMEX

    a 3rd party processor simply transfers control from you to the 3rd party - nothing more, nothing less
    www.cartika.com
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  9. #9
    The whole point of a third party is often for that added layer of trust / protection. They are held to some very strict standards by the credit card companies, they monitor for fraud, and they often spend millions protecting your data. You do not forego any rights by using paypal (assuming your funding source is a credit card), as you would by paying directly via a credit card. In fact, PayPal facilitates communication between you and the seller. Should that not be ample, you can then resort to the standard channels via your respective credit card provider/ issuing bank.

    Another great thing about these third party providers is that they watch over their merchants. If they notice continual abuse or complaints, then they will not let that merchant use their services any further.
    WOW - people here really need to research this more thoroughly - the advise given here is not only wrong, but poor as well..

    People, please contact your credit card provider (ie VISA, MC, AMEX, etc) and ask them directly
    www.cartika.com
    www.clusterlogics.com - You simply cannot run a hosting company without this software. Backups, Disaster Recovery, Big Data, Virtualization. 20 years of building software that solves your problems

  10. #10
    If you do a full year of payment, after 60 days you will not receive any protection from any credit card company (let alone a third party processor).

    Secondly, if you disagree with PayPal, you have the right to then move upstream to your credit card company and file a dispute.

    And cartika, I know this because I was recently disputing a charge on my credit card. I spoke with both Paypal and AMEX. I have first-hand experience with this and ended up handling the situation positively/within the guidelines of both AMEX and paypal to ultimately get my funds back.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by CartikaHosting
    many companies (ie VISA and MC will not accept a chargeback from a paypal payment - the only real exception is AMEX - and even they will not guarantee a chargeback from a paypal payment)
    "Many companies"? Can you name some of these please? Visa and MC will not refuse a chargeback based on it being paid through Paypal, I can tell you that for a fact because I did a chargeback on a service through Paypal just over a week ago which was funded through a Visa card. I have also charged back previous payments made through Paypal without any problem.

    Paypal is no different from any other chargeback and every bank I have ever dealt with will chargeback easier if it is a Paypal payment for a service because they know Paypal will normally instantly dismiss it internally.

    Without providing any evidence, your comments here are nothing but unfounded propaganda.

  12. #12
    Without providing any evidence, your comments here are nothing but unfounded propaganda.
    LOL

    3rd party processors are just that - 3rd party - and you are handing control over to them - ANY company can get a paypal account, but, not every company can get a merchant account - there is a reason for this...

    the OP essentially asked if it is safer to pay the host with a credit card directly or ot pay via a 3PP

    Talk about proaganda and BS all you want - I too have charged back a paypal payment for a service - many many times - sometimes it worked, others it didnt -

    Say what you will, but handing over control of your transactions to a 3rd party is not safer then paying directly via a credit card - please call and ask your credit card company this exact question:

    if I were to pay for something, would you recommend I make the purchase through paypal or pay directly with my credit card - and why?

    advising people to pay for a service through a 3rd party is bad advise -

    please dont take my word on it, please call your credit card company and ask
    www.cartika.com
    www.clusterlogics.com - You simply cannot run a hosting company without this software. Backups, Disaster Recovery, Big Data, Virtualization. 20 years of building software that solves your problems

  13. #13
    BTW - and as a small aside - how many people pay for a service with paypal using a credit card vs their bank account..

    Granted, you still get "some" protection if you fund with a credit card - but again, not nearly as much if you just pay with your credit card directly....

    though, I guess paypal defaults to bank account payment vs credit card for no reason at all - I also assume that paypal tries their best to ensure you dont change funding options to credit card for no reason at all:

    Before you change your funding source to your credit card, consider the benefits of paying with your bank account:

    * This payment is eligible for up to $500.00 USD of coverage with PayPal Buyer Protection.
    * You're still paying instantly and securely - without the worry of increasing debt
    * Paying with your bank account is instant and your payment will be completed immediately just as easy as paying with cash
    * PayPal keeps your bank account information safe and secure through military-grade encryption and 100% coverage of any unauthorized use


    Do you still want to change your funding source to a credit card?
    you realize that if you pay from a bank account for a service - you have ZERO protection right (at least through a cc you have a fighting chance - but heck, if you paid with a cc directly - you would have no concerns what-so-ever and are 100% protected)

    then, as if that isnt bad enough, they also state in their TOS that they will cancel your paypal account (and often times confiscate your balance) for no reason other then you dared to try and charge back against them

    PayPal reserves the right to terminate or limit account access privileges of buyers in any of the following cases:

    filing a chargeback against an unauthorized transaction
    but heck, this is all just propaganda - trust your money to 3rd parties - solid advise there - lol
    www.cartika.com
    www.clusterlogics.com - You simply cannot run a hosting company without this software. Backups, Disaster Recovery, Big Data, Virtualization. 20 years of building software that solves your problems

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by CartikaHosting
    Granted, you still get "some" protection if you fund with a credit card - but again, not nearly as much if you just pay with your credit card directly....
    Again, show me one company that gives you any less protection on a Paypal chargeback.

    Quote Originally Posted by CartikaHosting
    though, I guess paypal defaults to bank account payment vs credit card for no reason at all - I also assume that paypal tries their best to ensure you dont change funding options to credit card for no reason at all:
    Actually, think about it logically and it is cheaper for them to do a bank transfer than it is to take the hit on credit card fees. Add all those fees up for millions of transactions and it starts to build up, especially when it is avoidable.

    Quote Originally Posted by CartikaHosting
    you realize that if you pay from a bank account for a service - you have ZERO protection right (at least through a cc you have a fighting chance - but heck, if you paid with a cc directly - you would have no concerns what-so-ever and are 100% protected)
    So are you saying that you should also never pay for anything by cheque? You do realise it is not possible to cancel or reverse a cheque once it has been processed, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by CartikaHosting
    then, as if that isnt bad enough, they also state in their TOS that they will cancel your paypal account (and often times confiscate your balance) for no reason other then you dared to try and charge back against them

    ...

    but heck, this is all just propaganda - trust your money to 3rd parties - solid advise there - lol
    Ok, so they should be avoided because their TOS covers them for things that they can act on, but probably very rarely (if ever) do. As a hosting company with a TOS that also covers you from things that you are very unlikely to ever act on (service cancellation for any reason etc), are you saying you are less reputable and trustworthY than someone who does not have that clause?

  15. #15
    So are you saying that you should also never pay for anything by cheque? You do realise it is not possible to cancel or reverse a cheque once it has been processed, right?
    A cheque is different then paypal taking funds from your bank account

    of course I am not saying you should not pay by a cheque - I am saying the exact same thing over and over again - you should not hand control over to a 3rd party - especially not for a service

    using a cheque is a direct transaction - using a credit card is a direct transaction - are you being wilfully obtuse or is there another issue here altogether

    Ok, so they should be avoided because their TOS covers them for things that they can act on, but probably very rarely (if ever) do. As a hosting company with a TOS that also covers you from things that you are very unlikely to ever act on (service cancellation for any reason etc), are you saying you are less reputable and trustworthY than someone who does not have that clause?
    It covers them in case a large company goes out of business - that is what it is there for - so, if 1000 or 100,000 customers suddenly come looking for their money back - they wont go out of business - like so many other 3PP have done before them - the question is - at whos expense -
    if you are having problems with this one, it is at the customers expense)

    Again, if you pay directly via cc - it is safer (and that is the OP questions) -

    for the record, we utilize paypal alot - it is useful in certain situations - but, suggesting it is as safe or even safer (what a joke) then direct payment is false and uninformed at best
    www.cartika.com
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  16. #16
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    Both VISA and MasterCard process chargebacks on PayPal items. Mastercard and VISA have no policy (strict or suggested) dictating otherwise.

    If you call and ask your credit card company what method of payment is best, the response you get will depend on what bank you speak to.

    Here in Canada, Moneris (who have 3pp services) is owned by Bank of Montreal and Royal Bank of Canada. That means they will gladly recommend third party solutions. Worldpay (another 3pp service) is owned by Royal Bank of Scotland, so they'll state the same. In the states, Moneris USA have a great relationship with Harris Bank, so Harris will likely give a similar response. Afterall, by telling you that 3pp is unsafe they would be telling you that one of their own services is unsafe


    Simon
    EIRCA Ltd, home of The Genius Network™.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by CartikaHosting
    A cheque is different then paypal taking funds from your bank account

    of course I am not saying you should not pay by a cheque - I am saying the exact same thing over and over again - you should not hand control over to a 3rd party - especially not for a service

    using a cheque is a direct transaction - using a credit card is a direct transaction - are you being wilfully obtuse or is there another issue here altogether
    So it's ok to pay something by cheque when you do not have any comeback if you are ripped off, but in your own words you "NEVER pay for a service with a 3rd party payment processor" even though you do have comeback in that case?

    Quote Originally Posted by CartikaHosting
    It covers them in case a large company goes out of business - that is what it is there for - so, if 1000 or 100,000 customers suddenly come looking for their money back - they wont go out of business - like so many other 3PP have done before them - the question is - at whos expense -
    if you are having problems with this one, it is at the customers expense)
    Exactly, it covers them. What you seemed to have missed though is that clause doesn't prevent you from getting your money back, it prevents you from using their service once you get your money back. Just like a host getting a chargeback against their services, they can cancel your account. I placed a Paypal dispute not too long ago and Paypal closed it saying it was a virtual service and they could not deal with it, however feel free to contact your card provider for further assistance. I called and was told that doing a chargeback against them would not affect me, as long as I had exhausted all possible avenues with Paypal first.

    Quote Originally Posted by CartikaHosting
    Again, if you pay directly via cc - it is safer (and that is the OP questions) -
    And again I will say no it isn't. You can claim it is the same or you can claim it is safer, but you have nothing to backup your claim of being less safe.

    I can provide my card to 10 companies or I can provide it only to Paypal, which one is more likely to be safer? If I ever want to stop dealing with a company, I cancel the Paypal account which is a lot easier than cancelling a card to prevent further billing. Sure you could argue that those future billings could be rectified with chargebacks, but that is extra work for me and also causes me problems. I could be going to pay for something and find out that host x just wiped out my bank account, whether I can charge that back or not does not stop the embarrassment of standing in that store trying to pay with a card that it at it's limit.

    Quote Originally Posted by IHSL
    Worldpay (another 3pp service) is owned by Royal Bank of Scotland, so they'll state the same.
    Exactly. All of our banking is through the RBOS.

  18. #18
    So it's ok to pay something by cheque when you do not have any comeback if you are ripped off, but in your own words you "NEVER pay for a service with a 3rd party payment processor" even though you do have comeback in that case?
    wow - I have no idea what you are talking about -

    if you pay by cheque - you can reverse that cheque - if you pay from your bank account with a 3PP you have no recourse - that is a fact

    Exactly, it covers them. What you seemed to have missed though is that clause doesn't prevent you from getting your money back, it prevents you from using their service once you get your money back.
    listen man - search this forum for 3PP that have gone out of business - no one got their money back - what I am saying - and it isnt anything mind boggling here - if you perform a transaction directly - you are better protected - if you perform it though a 3PP - you are at risk (which by the way is what this thread is about)

    And again I will say no it isn't. You can claim it is the same or you can claim it is safer, but you have nothing to backup your claim of being less safe.
    3PP processors are not as stable as a direct source - just do a search...

    end of the day - this is all absurd !!!

    we are a hosting provider - we will accept payment via paypal, cc, cheque, money order - whatever you like

    however, what we are talking about here is WHAT IS BETTER FOR THE CUSTOMER

    the safest thing for a customer is to pay directly - either via a credit card or an alternate form of direct payment - period -
    www.cartika.com
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  19. #19
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    Im gonna avoid for now all what is been said (ill do it later when i get more time)
    cartika..i HAVE to use paypal in order to pay for what I need cause its my only option since Im overseas, I can't do it directly, its not affordable OR realiable, so by far paypal works and have worked for me for the past years!, not so much about 2co which ive had annoying experiences.

  20. #20
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    To answer the original question:

    As a customer, I prefer to reduce the number of middle-men between myself (the payor), and the host (the payee). Therefore, I choose to pay directly via my credit card (preferably American Express, since they have defended my rights fairly against unauthorized transactions in the past).
    Cory von Wallenstein, Dynamic Network Services Inc.
    My team and I spent the last few months putting together the DynDNS Spring Server VPS platform for folks needing IPv4 and IPv6 Linux servers on Xen. Would love feedback, both good and bad!

  21. #21
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    I don't want to take sides, but Cartika made some very good points.

    Everyone can bring up their individual experiences, but they prove very little. Here is why. The ultimate decision for whether or not a chargeback is approved is made by the card issuing bank, not by the customer, the merchant, or the card company. In other words, Visa, MC, AmEx, and Discover do not make decisions with regards to chargebacks.

    Just because someone did or did not win a dispute against paypal proves nothing. It only shows the policy of that one person's card issuing bank. There are thousands of card issuing banks out there. No one bank can speak for the card associations.

    We accept PayPal as well, but only as a courtesy. Most of our customers still prefer to pay directly by credit card. They can choose to pay automatically, they can cancel any time they want, and if, by some freak of nature, they were unable to cancel, they know they can dispute.

    With PayPal, if you dispute a credit card transaction against paypal, it really does cause PayPal to watch your account more closely and you run the risk of getting your paypal account frozen.
    eVerity.com
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  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by everity
    Everyone can bring up their individual experiences, but they prove very little. Here is why. The ultimate decision for whether or not a chargeback is approved is made by the card issuing bank, not by the customer, the merchant, or the card company. In other words, Visa, MC, AmEx, and Discover do not make decisions with regards to chargebacks.
    Please understand that while this is the case for Visa and MasterCard (not sure about Discover), where you are interacting with the issuing bank and not the card company, this is not the case with American Express. American Express works differently from the other providers, which is part of the reason they have historically had higher merchant fees. American Express issues and manages its own credit to customers, as opposed to Visa and MasterCard which provide just the charging service but leave credit issuance up to a bank.

    Hence, when you deal with chargebacks for Visa and MasterCard, experiences will vary since you're really dealing with the bank.

    When you deal with chargebacks with American Express, you're just dealing with American Express, since their credit corporation IS the issuing bank.
    Cory von Wallenstein, Dynamic Network Services Inc.
    My team and I spent the last few months putting together the DynDNS Spring Server VPS platform for folks needing IPv4 and IPv6 Linux servers on Xen. Would love feedback, both good and bad!

  23. #23
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    my bad, you are correct about that. AmEx is different.
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  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by CartikaHosting
    wow - I have no idea what you are talking about -

    if you pay by cheque - you can reverse that cheque - if you pay from your bank account with a 3PP you have no recourse - that is a fact
    That may be a fact for you, but it's not the same everywhere. Once a cheque I write clears, the money is gone. No way to reverse it, no recourse. We were not talking about bank transfers, we were talking about Credit Card funding so yes you do have recourse for a payment made through that. If you are going to claim something is a fact, the least you could do is get the facts straight first.

    Quote Originally Posted by CartikaHosting
    listen man - search this forum for 3PP that have gone out of business - no one got their money back - what I am saying - and it isnt anything mind boggling here - if you perform a transaction directly - you are better protected - if you perform it though a 3PP - you are at risk (which by the way is what this thread is about)
    Again, no you are not better protected. If I pay for something by credit card, no matter whether that company goes out of business or not, I can still chargeback the payment and receive my money. My bank covers my payments against fraud and a company not providing the service is classed as fraud. (And yes I did check with the bank before posting this and I wanted to make sure I was correct in this)

    Quote Originally Posted by CartikaHosting
    3PP processors are not as stable as a direct source - just do a search...
    You are claiming that Joe Blogg's hosting company with a merchant account is more stable than a company like Paypal? Who is making absurd comments here now?

    Quote Originally Posted by CartikaHosting
    the safest thing for a customer is to pay directly - either via a credit card or an alternate form of direct payment - period -
    In your opinion it is, but you have yet to provide one shred of evidence to backup your claim.

    Quote Originally Posted by everity
    I don't want to take sides, but Cartika made some very good points.

    Everyone can bring up their individual experiences, but they prove very little. Here is why. The ultimate decision for whether or not a chargeback is approved is made by the card issuing bank, not by the customer, the merchant, or the card company. In other words, Visa, MC, AmEx, and Discover do not make decisions with regards to chargebacks.

    Just because someone did or did not win a dispute against paypal proves nothing. It only shows the policy of that one person's card issuing bank. There are thousands of card issuing banks out there. No one bank can speak for the card associations.
    What you have said is exactly what we have been saying all along and actually contradicts what Cartika has been saying. Those individual experiences might not mean much as a whole, but they certainly prove Cartika's beliefs to be wrong. Cartika very clearly told us that Visa and Mastercard will not allow a chargeback against a Paypal payment. No maybe about it, it was said they will never allow it and that is nothing but a false statement because many people here can testify to the contrary.

  25. #25
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    I was mainly agreeing with Cartika's original point, that its safer to use a credit card directly, rather than a 3pp. I agree that its only marginally safer, and thats an opinion based on what I know. I'm sure other people have had different experiences and would therefore have different opinions.

    This is one of those things for which there is no definite answer, but I think most of the valid points have been made by this time, and the OP probably has all the information he needs to make his own opinion.

    I'm afraid this is another one of those discussions that will go on for 10 more pages, lol.
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