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  1. #1
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    Whos to blame My host or me?

    OK then here's a dilemma. I've been with the same host for close to 2 years, but same old story they got quite big, sold out to a bigger company and the support I'd valued for so long started to get a bit 'wobbly'. I accepted that as part of the big 'changeover' and things started to settle again.

    Anyway, one of my sites, a travel directory, iexploreflorida.com has run without hitch forever so imagine my surprise when I visit the site to do some editing and the only thing left is a page with this:

    Fatal error: Cannot redeclare clsUsers::$date_format in /home/englishf/public_html/lib/users.class.php on line 58

    I'm also having problems with two other database driven sites.

    Contacting support they tell me its all because of a PHP upgrade from 4 to 5 and after a bit of back and forth they say its not their problem because they dont support third party scripts etc etc. I posted on their forums (at their suggestion) without any luck too which is why I'm here again (after a long long gap). Do I just quit and move elsewhere?

    They say the 'upgrade' was mentioned on their website in advance but I think if the upgrade was such a major issue surely an email alert would have been a better idea. Who has the time to visit their webhost homepage daily?

    Anyway....

    Thanks

    Ade

  2. #2
    Hi,
    upgrading from php4 to php5 can cause some damages for sure. The hosting should have emailed at least a week before doing the change so all users can change their scripts accordingly. What you can do now is ask them to move the website to a server with php4 (if they have one), rewrite the script (can take some time) or change your host. Most of the hosts have separate servers with php4 or php5 so they can move clients at their request. Hope that helps.
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  3. #3
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    Thanks for the reply, have already signed up with a new host with PHP 4 so migration fun on the horizon now !

    Cheers !
    Ade

  4. #4
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    I would agree that updating PHP from 4 to 5 should be classified as "something major" and an eMail to all Clients, giving advance notice, would have been the prudent thing to do. Unfortuanately, there are many Hosters that do not give notice and Clients find out when things stop working.

    If a Hoster is concerned for their Clients or value their business, it also makes sense for a Hoster to give some help if problems arise after the upgrade, although, there is no obligation. You are not the first nor will you be last, to be in the situation you are now.

    Your only recourse is to fix the PHP/mySQL error or move to a Hoster that provides PHP 4. And with hindsight, question them specifically if they will give notice and/or help, after a major upgrade of any Server software.
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  5. #5
    Good luck Ade, this is a good decision and I hope you'll have no problems with and after the migration.
    Keep us posted
    Last edited by maiahost; 08-03-2006 at 10:37 AM.
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  6. #6
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    Upgrade from 4 to 5 on a production server is just...well, crazy. PHP 4 is pretty much considered a whole different ball of wax than PHP 5 and WILL cause a lot of existing scripts to break. I'm surprised that any host would do that to their customers without plenty of advanced warning and offering them the option to move to a PHP 4 server.

    To simply stop supporting PHP 4 is like purposely trying to get rid of a portion of your customer base.

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  7. #7
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    I'm more annoyed I guess because I was paying more for the extra 'support' ($33 a month for the kind of service you'd expect for less than $10!!). Still, time to move on and I have chosen a host with telephone support too which over the years I'm convinced now is something that is essential to be honest.

    Thanks guys

    Ade

  8. #8
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    I agree Tina ! I'm really gobsmacked that a host with such a good rep (I'm not here to name and shame until my sites are moved!) could be so unthinking and like you say, the option to stay with PHP 4 would have been a great idea but here's the best they could do (response to my ticket which was closed unresolved by them)..

    "The actual migration was announced in early Jan 2006, with an option for clients to obtain a php5/mysql5 testing account prior to the changeover to ensure script compatibility. You may wish to ask on our forums, but your request goes behind our realms of our customer support (script coding)"

    Ade

  9. #9
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    Must be a stupid host.

    Ditching PHP 4 for PHP 5 isn't upgrading

    It's only just new anyway so there is great demand.

    You made the right decision in moving.

  10. #10
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    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by Katatonic
    Must be a stupid host.

    Ditching PHP 4 for PHP 5 isn't upgrading

    It's only just new anyway so there is great demand.

    You made the right decision in moving.
    I can't agree about demand. We have had a test bed server for clients to test their stuff on 5+ if they want (we have copied several over under accounts we have for testing then moved them back) for quite some time; but a while back I thought we would start offering hosting on it just to test the water...so I put it in my signature here under a different name. How many inquiries have we had in 2 or 3 months?? TWO total...one for a developer who didn't need hosting now but was about to begin work on a 5+ project and said he would be back when they got going in a month or 2 and another who wanted a TON of resources (way more than any of our plans offer) with a bunch of other "specialty" requests that were too much to worry with.

    I see posts on here all the time from people wanting to know why there aren't many PHP5+ hosts and now I know...for the vast majority nobody cares, the demand just isn't there yet...

    But we have no plans to EVER forcibly upgrade everyone from 4+ to 5+ (it is a lot more than just an upgrade and can break a LOT). I think there will be a slow gradual migration as more people start writing in 5+ and for MySQL 5+ but we will have 4+ servers for people who need them as long as there is a demand. I think it will (probably in the next year or so) start a gradual shift for customers as new things (programs, forums, scripts, etc.) start becoming available optimized for the 5+ version platforms. (Also a lot of the older programs that do have new 5+ versions tend to still be "buggy")
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  11. #11
    Its possible to offer both versions on a server but I definately wouldn't recommend forcing clients to use one or the other, as it can potentially lead to broken scripts. Its also even more concerning when a provider doesn't have a single box they can put you that will accomodate php4. best of luck on your new host!

  12. Yeah very stupid move on their part. Why not just offer 4 & 5 like most everyone else. Good luck with your new host.
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by DDT
    so I put it in my signature here under a different name. How many inquiries have we had in 2 or 3 months?? TWO total...one for a developer who didn't need hosting now but was about to begin work on a 5+ project and said he would be back when they got going in a month or 2 and another who wanted a TON of resources (way more than any of our plans offer) with a bunch of other "specialty" requests that were too much to worry with.

    I see posts on here all the time from people wanting to know why there aren't many PHP5+ hosts and now I know...for the vast majority nobody cares, the demand just isn't there yet...
    Just because you did not get enquiries about it doesn't mean there is no demand for it, just the same a one host not getting signups does not mean there is no demand for hosting. I'd say about 1 out of 5 enquiries we have had over the last few months has been from people looking for either MySQL5, PHP5 or both. There most definately is a demand for PHP5 hosting.

  14. #14
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    Well, I think part of the reason PHP5 isn't taking hold so well is because many hosts see it in that light also:
    They'll offer it when the demand is there, however with fewer PHP5 test beds it's more difficult to make PHP5-specific code, especially when many hosts still prefer PHP4 (and you can't run PHP5 code on a PHP4 server), so to make it compatible, they either don't use the PHP5 specific code, or just stick with PHP4 entirely.

    I'm in a bit of the same situation myself, I would like to learn PHP5, but a lot of hosts only offer PHP4.

    edit: darn my typos....
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarkRogue
    (and you can't run PHP5 code on a PHP4 server)
    You can install both versiosn very easily on the same machine.

  16. #16
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    I can't seem to grasp the concept of ugprading all servers to PHP 5 without giving customers the option of staying on PHP 4. When we added PHP 5, we purchased an entirely new set of hosting servers and then gave customers the option of moving off of the PHP 4 servers.

    The management at this company doesn't appear to be too knowledgeable. Any host should know that customers don't always visit their hosts website on a regular basis -- especially customers who are on automated payment billing -- they have no reason to ever visit the hosts site, so long as the service is working.

    If we were going to do something like this (which we wouldn't), we would most certainly send an e-mail to all of our customers explaining what was going to be done and the risks involved.

    Best of luck with your new host.
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  17. #17
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    Usually web hosts just compile in both versions of PHP and allow their clients to be able to access both versions. Your old web host wasn't willing to do this?
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  18. #18
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    I just found the 'advance warning', dated January 9th on their forums. Only thing is this means you have to visit the forums to see this, not only that but its one of those closed forum deals where you cant read the forums unless you're signed on.


    Hi,

    PHP will go live on all our servers on 1st July 2006. We will no longer support php4 from this time.

    PHP is currently on build 5.1.1 and we believe that this is ample time for third party developers to make their scripts php5 compliant. Complaints/feedback can be left here.

    Thanks!


    Later the admin answers this comment:


    Quote:Q
    Does this mean that we will not be able to run php4 scripts on myacen servers at all or that you just won't support fantastico applications written in php4, or that you won't upgrade/patch PHP4 as security holes are discovered and new versions are released, or something completely different?
    Either way it doesn't sound good.


    A:It means php4 will no longer run on our webservers after this date.

    And that was my warning. Like someone in this thread commented I really had no reason to visit support or the forum until something went wrong. I am still astonished that users were not contacted via email before hand, if I would have known before the July 1st deadline I would have changed hosts before half of my sites were messed up. Now I have sites 'upgraded' to PHP 5 and have to go back to PHP 4, either way its messy.

    Ade

  19. #19
    The php script that is causing the problem-- can you go back to the supplier... It looks like an easy script variable substitution. Is it a custom script?

    Q...

  20. #20
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    The directory script that is causing the problem is called Indexu its not up to date and there are security issues with the latest version so I wont be upgrading. Am posting on the forums at the Nicecoder website but I wont hold my breath as I've tried before and it can be weeks before a reply (if any!) sometimes. The downside of using obscure directory scripts authored in Malaysia !!

    Ade

    Here is an archived version of my site courtesy of Archive.org to give you an idea of what the script actually looked like.
    Last edited by 99thfloor; 08-04-2006 at 08:28 AM.

  21. #21
    Definitely a poor mgmt decision to upgrade a live server from php4 to php5, notice or no notice. Shouldn't have happened period. They wanted to offer php5, they should have started with a fresh server and moved ppl who wanted php5 to it.

    Sounds like they had their heads up their butts on that one. As for them saying they don't support 3rd party scripts..well, in general that's a normal rule, but in this case the scripts broke because of what they did so it makes it their problem.

  22. #22
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    Theirs two sides of every story, and I would like to point out that this was announced on 9th January 2006, the actual implementation varied, most servers were actually upgraded on July 1st as specified but others occurred at a later stage.

    - This was emailed on multiple occasions
    - The notice was stickied on our forum, the user is a regular at our forums.
    - A notice was posted on our news section of our client portal 16 days before "d day" as a reminder to clients
    - 3 months prior to the implementation we offered FREE accounts on a php5 server dedicated to our customers testing various scripts (third party etc).

    Unlike most hosts we actually plan, consult and give ADVANCE notice before making crucial changes which may affect the way a user’s website operates.

    No our implementation has not been poor, we are not a "stupid host" users just failed to heed to the warnings and emails we send out. The stickied thread attracted 154 replies since its inception, we have various other threads including FAQ's etc but because this has already been implemented these are closed and archived.

    PHP5 is a vital step in our offerings and hence 6 months grace time, and a free machine was offered for use to our clients. At a guess less than 5% of scripts stopped functioning after the upgrade, however most users were running old versions of 3rd party software and upgrading them to the latest version got their sites up and running once again.

    Obviously we cannot provide 3rd part scripting support for clients, as Peter mentioned it's beyond our realms of customer support. We don't get paid from phpbb or similar companies to provide support to our users so I don't agree it's our job to do their job.

    Our business was never sold as per the first post. Yes we have expanded rapidly both through our online and offline ventures and that's why the remainder of the year we are focusing on consolidating our systems, processes etc. Companies suffer from growing pains and it's not the first time we have but we are working on these issues and it's it's because of a solid product backed by solid reliability that has seen this explosion in the last 6 months. Sorry to see you go, however I would have recommended fixing the problem either yourself or contacting the developer. Those recommending running 5/4 combined it was looked into but we don't wish to bloat our servers with software. Considering PHP is in version 5.1.X this has given developers ample time, that do not know how to code correctly time to resolve their scripts incompatibilities. 5 was in beta what 2 years ago?

    Most of my gripe is not with the user starting this thread, as it's true php4->5 is a big step. However it's with the other hosts in this thread. You have no idea how our system was implemented or any information and you make a judgement with no further information. One would hope you are never part of a jury.

    Updated: And for those users that did contact us prior to the migration, they were moved over to a php4 server we brought online that gave them additional time to make their changes.

    Updated: Grammar corrections

    Updated: Further Clarification

    Robert
    Last edited by coight; 08-05-2006 at 11:49 AM.
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  23. #23
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    Thanks for your thoughts Coight/Robert. The reason I posted here (I'm not here to cause trouble) was because support closed my ticket without a resolution and advised me to post on the MyAcen forums, which I did here, again without any real resolution (though Robert did offer a brief reply). Up until this incident I was more than happy with MyAcen. In fact I'll go as far to stay the best host I've used in my short 3 years of webhosting experience, which is why you've never seen me on here moaning about anything and which is why you never saw me on the forums there much at all (last post infact was Nov 2005 prior to this incident).

    I really cant remember any downtime in almost two years with MyAcen for instance.

    I never received any email from MyAcen informing me of what was going on. Yes I used to be a regular poster on the forums there but not this year. Most of my posts and activity date back to 2005. Anyway....

    quote:
    "Unlike most hosts we actually plan, consult and give ADVANCE notice before making crucial changes which may affect the way a user’s website operates."


    Thats all very noble, but for whatever reason I missed all that advance warning. The sign of a great host is one that is there when things go wrong too, which like I say was very rare (very rare!) in the case of MyAcen.

    I'm not here to bad mouth MyAcen but the facts are that your update broke my site. Your update, not mine. Thats what I'm p***ed at thats all.

    Believe me when I say I've had some cheap a** hosts (MyAcen is not one of them) but even those $10 a month jokers would have offered more in the way of getting my site back up believe me, other than the "we told you so" reponse I got from you guys !

    Anyway

    Thanks for your comments Robert and please understand I only came here out of utter frustration, not to do some unwarranted hatchet job.

    The 'My Site Has Died' post at MyAcen is here.

    Cheers

    Ade


    Updated (didn't notice this in Roberts post)
    Quote:
    "And for those users that did contact us prior to the migration, they were moved over to a php4 server we brought online that gave them additional time to make their changes."


    Really if I'd've known this do you not think I would have taken up the opportunity to do so?

    Updated: Grammar corrections
    Last edited by 99thfloor; 08-05-2006 at 12:27 PM.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by 99thfloor
    Thanks for your thoughts Coight/Robert. The reason I posted here (I'm not here to cause trouble!) was because support closed my ticket without a resolution and advised me to post on the MyAcen forums, which I did, again without any real solution (though Robert did offer a brief reply). Up until this incident I was more than happy with MyAcen. In fact I'll go as far to stay the best host I've used in my short 3 years of webhosting experience, which is why you've never seen me on here moaning about anything and which is why you never saw me on the forums there much at all (last post infact was Nov 2005 prior to this incident).
    Adrian that's understandable but don't take my post as a negative response to your original. I'm miffed about how all these other hosts can comment without knowing the full story behind the issue. I usually reserve judgement until I hear both sides. I guess posting gets your url in the public eye.

    It's great to hear you have had a great experience =). It's something we hardly hear but when we do the office is a great place to be. We always encourage communication between our users and us as it helps direct our business to where it needs to be. You can't make decisions on the spur of the moment and hence why we have private consultation groups of users (most of our customers are not aware of this) however it's something I'm bringing up here because I believe it's important to note.


    I really cant remember any downtime in almost 2 years with MyAcen for instance.
    We invest tens of thousands of dollars into our equipment, we don't oversell our servers and hence why we can offer such reliability, but it's great hearing it from a customer. I guess some customers that are wanting to come back now did not know how good they had it before they went to the hosts offering incredible 100gb of space packages =). Hopefully the new host will be the same, worry free.

    I never received any email from MyAcen informing me of what was going on. Yes I used to be a regular poster on the forums there but not this year. Most of my posts and activity date back to 2005. Anyway....
    =) Much like our other users, our forums have pretty much flattened out in the last 24 months, the only real time you get posts is when a user is having issues. It's strange you know, looking back at the tickets from July their are 4 or 5 similar notices that clients did not receive emails however the general consensus is most received them ok. Did you get this one atleast: http://my.tw.com.au/index.php?_m=new...news&newsid=92

    quote:
    "Unlike most hosts we actually plan, consult and give ADVANCE notice before making crucial changes which may affect the way a user’s website operates."


    Thats all very noble, but for whatever reason I missed all that advance warning. The sign of a great host is one that is there when things go wrong too, which like I say is very rare (very rare!) in the case of MyAcen.
    Thanks for the Feedback Adrian. It's appreciated, we inform customers that ALL feedback is read and considered. If your happy we like hearing about it also =), it means we are doing things right and we can concentrate on improving the other areas of our service. We are not perfect by any strecth of the imagination but constant feedback helps build our business around our customers and their needs.

    I'm not here to bad mouth MyAcen but the fact are that your update broke my site. Your update, not mine. Thats what I'm p***ed at thats all. Believe me when I say I've had some cheap a** hosts (MyAcen is not one of them) but even those $10 a month jokers would have offered more in the way of getting my site back up believe me, other than the "we told you so" reponse I got from you guys !
    Understandable, however I agree with Peter in relation to the script. Most times we just direct the end user to the support of the script, however as you have mentioned their support seems to be lacking and I'm sure this is also adding to your frustration. However, I've seen your post and apparently their is a fix for php5 but I'm not registered so can't see it.

    Anyway

    Thanks for your comments Robert and please understand I only came here out of utter frustration, not to do some unwarranted hatchet job.

    The 'My Site Has Died' post at MyAcen is here.

    Cheers

    Ade
    Basically I wanted to clear it up for those users searching for us at these forums. Maybe I'll go post some rubbish to get our url out to the public. Another thing to note Adrian, is that all clients (the type you are) will be upgraded free of charge to VPS systems in the next 30-90 days (we've been given this date by our supplier). Basically at this time users will be able to run whatever configuration they want even PHP4 .

    Rob
    Last edited by coight; 08-05-2006 at 12:38 PM.
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