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Thread: Exovian Scam

  1. #1

    Exovian Scam

    I hope this serves as a warning, and also as some advice on how to handle disputes with a Webhost.

    On Jan 30, 2006 I contacted Exovian Sales to setup a website for my Church which was going to require a lot of bandwidth for video. Their sales department said they could accomodate and directed me via email to:

    "To get started, simply click Order Now under the Top Reseller Plan and enter the Coupon CHAD to receive 750GB Bandwidth and 40GB of Space for $839.76 every two years."

    Within the first 6 hours of signing up it became apparent that I was going to be unable to reach their servers, even using the IP address. Their lack of help from support was apparent in this glib resposne:

    "I am able to ping it without a problem, from two seperate locations.
    Regards,
    Dave"


    Not a whole lot of support there... Now since Exovian has a "30 Day Money Back Guarantee" and it didn't look as if this was going to be resolved I submitted a ticket to billing for a cancellation. The response was shocking...

    "as per our Terms of Service you cannot receive a refund if you are on a custom package, or if you are cancelling due to personal reasons."

    Custom Package? I was directed to click on a preconfigured package and enter a coupon code. That was the first time my setup was ever referred to as a "Custom Package" and the sign-up was mis-leading.

    I spoke with Anthony Bush who identified him self as "Director of Hosting" and made an offer. I said that I appreciate the fact that they may have had costs incurred during setup and offered them $100 for their time and trouble (approx 3 months worth of service paid for for less than 6 hours worth of hosting). He denied this request and when I followed on with a demand for refund this was the response I received from abush @ exovian.com

    "
    That's too bad Chad. Should have read the TOS before you signed up."

    I also let them know that I filed a charge-back with my bank and received the following threat from billing @ exovian.com

    "
    Hi Chad,

    If your band files a chargeback we will have no choice but to contact the bank and take action against your account. You agree'd to pay for two years in advance and that's exactly what you got with top of the line service and support. You also lied to our technicians when they were trying to help you to make up excuses to try and blame our company. There is nothing wrong with the service and support so please contact your bank and cancel the chargeback or we will have no choice but to take action against this account."

    This was my response:

    Just to clarify:

    1)I did not lie – I could not connect and your support could not assist me
    2)I was never informed before purchase that my order would be a “Custom Package” and in fact was directed in an email to click on a preconfigured package thus as I was not informed the term is not applicable. This is willful misdirection in attempt to extort money from customers and it won’t hold up.
    3)I will not contact my bank, and will continue to proceed to the fullest extent of the law.

    Until you honor my demand for refund I have nothing more to discuss.


    Apparently they know little of the law, and of the charge-back regulations. They can't take action against a duely established process governed by financial law. Because they are unwilling to refund my money so far I have been left with a few options which I hope some of you may find helpful if you're ever faced with a similar situation:

    1) Filed a chargeback with my bank which is under investigation
    2) Contacted the BBB of Southern Florida via bbb.org

    An interesting note here... Exovian is listed in the BBB Database as Digicor, Inc <sensitive info snipped>, where Ben Gabler resides, the assumed "owner" of Exovian.

    Yes -- Its run out of someone's HOME -- I could find no business address in any internet search and nothing on their website I found listed a business address.

    Amy Norman with the West Palm Beach BBB emailed to inform me that:

    "This company has already "earned" an "unsatisfactory" business reliability report with the BBB. It is, therefore, doubtful that they will respond to us, or to you, concerning this matter. Nevertheless, we will make our best effort to help mediate a solution." --


    A search of Exovian on the BBB Website uncovered that "Exovian" or Digicor has NEVER responded to a consumer complaint and is NOT a member of the BBB.

    From the BBB Website:
    The Bureau processed a total of 7 complaints about this company in the last 36 months, our standard reporting period. Of the total 7 complaints in the last 36 months, 3 of those were closed in the last 12 months.

    Complaints Concerned
    Repair Issues: 1
    Outcome of the complaint -
    No Response: 1

    Customer Service Issues: 2
    Outcome of all complaints -
    No Response: 2

    Product Issues: 1
    Outcome of the complaint -
    No Response: 1

    Refund or Exchange Issues: 1
    Outcome of the complaint -
    No Response: 1

    Billing or Collection Issues: 2
    Outcome of all complaints -
    No Response: 2


    To continue...

    3) Contacted the BBB for Washington State, since the sales invoice I have from Exovian listed an address at
    5903 Cowiche Canyon RD
    Yakima WA 98908-8641

    4) Filed a formal complaint with the FTC -- FTC.gov

    5) Filed a formal complaint with the Office of the Maryland Attorney General, who will forward this for investigation by the Florida State Attorney General

    If exovian attempts to stop my chargeback of hinder my bank's investigation, or further denies to cooperate with the BBB in resolving such matters I will have no choice but to take legal action. I'm fortunate in that I have access to a great deal of free legal support. I've been assured by the Attorney General's office that the matter will be under investigation now that a formal complaint has been filed.

    Anthony Bush or Ben Gabler, if you're reading this here's your last opportunity to provide a refund. I don't know what makes you think that 6 hours worth of hosting deserves $839.72 but if you don't refund it soon you'll be explaining it to the BBB, FTC and Attorney General's office, and maybe even a judge soon -- all along the way I assure you that I'll take every opportunity presented to warn people about this type of scam including Television, Radio and anyone else in the media that will listen.

    Make this right, and refund the money.




    Last edited by ldcdc; 02-09-2006 at 01:54 AM.
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  2. #2
    Nice. At least you’re fighting back.

    Stuff like that really makes all hosts look bad - although if they could deliver it 34.99 for 40 gb of space is a good deal. Kind of surprising they would try to sell you 2 years upfront, that just sounds suspicious - as far as avoiding scammers in the future, buy hosting month to month.
    if you haven’t already, have a lawyer look over those TOS.
    Dave Schott
    CEO / CFO Ambient Host, LLC.
    http://www.ambienthost.com
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  3. #3
    Thanks ambient -- I have had my attorney review it and have had 3 independant witnesses print local copies of it to prevent any after the fact manipulation. If it goes that far it will be a slam dunk, I have no doubt.
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  4. #4
    Join Date
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    You're doing the right thing by making an example out of these guys. More power to you.
    <<< Please see Forum Guidelines for signature setup. >>>
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  5. #5
    If everything you have said is accurate, then they will not have a foot to stand on. This is a very unfortunate situation and hopefully it will help teach you and others to evaluate services monthly initially, unless you feel extremely comfortable.

    Good luck.
    FrogJumper.com, Superb Cpanel Web Hosting.
    Excellent, High Paying Affiliate Program.
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  6. #6
    Join Date
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    If what you're saying is true, they might lose their merchant account if they try to fight the chargeback. Keep everything documented in a file.
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  7. #7
    Thanks for the support guys! -- As far as accuracy I've been advised by my lawyer to request the email server logs from my ISP. Since I acted quickly I was fortunate enough to gain their cooperation. Since email is the only trail of communication a signed affidavit from an ISP regarding email traffic is important.

    I've got printed piles of every communication ever sent and received and all verified by outside parties. The message to the consumer there is to DOCUMENT, DOCUMENT, DOCUMENT --
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  8. #8
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    Sorry to hear about your terrible experience with them, better luck next time! If they cannot honor their own 30 day money back guarantee, I doubt they will be providing a reliable service.
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  9. #9
    Join Date
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    Anthony is a young guy. I'm not sure about the rest of the company, but he doesn't seem to know much about hosting. I wish you the best of luck in getting your money back, they're way out of line in denying you a refund.
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  10. #10
    Join Date
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    Okay WebHostingTalk, Want to know the truth?

    Well here it is.

    I received an email from Chad Marshall on 1/29 at around 10:52 PM PST.
    “I'm considering switching to Exovian…
    (rather than try to copy and paste it all, here are the details) -- I'm looking for 1.6 TB bandwidth per month plan.
    Chad L. Marshall”

    He also insisted on paying for two years
    “I would be happy with your Top Level plan, but a 34.99 (I'll prepay for 2 years)”

    A few emails later he replied with:
    “Ok. So we're looking at 34.99/mo x 24/mo = $839.76

    Account will be the features as your top level hosting with the following exceptions:

    Bandwidth: 750GB
    Disk Space: 40GB”

    Obviously a custom plan, as it is not on our website. And the reason we have that we don’t do refunds on custom plans is because people abuse it by signing up for a custom plan then canceling hours later, if people didn’t abuse our service it wouldn’t have been in our Terms of Service.

    Chad signed up on 1/30/06 at 11:34 A.M. At 2:41 PM he submitted a ticket saying he cannot ping our server. Fine, we checked it, Dave checked it, we had numerous people try it. It worked fine. He wanted to cancel. I called him and we spoke. He told me that” God had a message for him and that was that hosting was a bad idea”. We even changed him to a new IP and everything to try and figure out the problem. He said he was still having problems. Then, on the same day at 5:04 P.M. Chad submitted a ticket asking that Joomla be installed. Two minutes later, at 5:06 P.M. Dave replied with “Hi Chad, I have installed Joomla.” We were still working on the IP problem but when we switched his IP he couldn’t ping that one either. At 9:59 P.M., Chad said
    “And another bit of information that may be helpful. My WAN IP addy is:
    68.34.65.165”. Dave replied with “

    68.34.65.165 72.232.61.99 72.232.61.99 l 0 0 1 lo
    68.34.65.165 72.232.61.98 72.232.61.98 l 0 0 3 lo
    68.34.65.165 72.232.61.100 72.232.61.100 l 0 0 3 lo
    72.232.61.99 68.34.65.165 72.232.61.97 0 0 51 eth0
    72.232.61.98 68.34.65.165 72.232.61.97 0 0 3 eth0
    72.232.61.100 68.34.65.165 72.232.61.97 0 0 3 eth0
    68.34.65.165 72.232.61.99 72.232.61.99 l 0 0 29 lo

    I see connections coming from your IP
    I can see data going to your connection, It looks like its working.

    <<< removed >>>


    After talking on the phone with Chad, he was telling me that I’m not a Christian, and criticizing me about my religion and all this stuff. Everything seemed fine, he acknowledged he wasn’t going to be receiving a refund and wanted to make the best of it. He said “I want you to know that I don't have any hard feelings about anything, as you said it was just business and I respect the position I put you in. I want to make this relationship work, as I've got a lot of people counting on this and I have no desire to just give up because of a rough start.”

    I don’t see why he came to post here, as there is no need for it. He needs to abide by our Terms of Service, and he has his hosting for 2 years as he wanted, and then signed up for. He was lying to our Support Reps about not being able to login or anything, and next time I speak to Dave I will have him provide me with more logs if he has them.
    Last edited by SoftWareRevue; 02-05-2006 at 11:15 AM.


    Regards,
    Anthony B.
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  11. #11
    Join Date
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    Regardless of which party is telling the truth about what, it's on the host to be professional, even in posting details of conversations, proof, etc.. We all know attitude does no good in these situations for either party.. It can be a heated situation, by all means, but it's always a good idea to take a deep breath before posting (I think many people can relate to that one here on WHT)

    In my personal view with the refund policy.. If a host offers custom plans, that's a good indication that it isn't very hard for them to set one up. Adding a clause in your TOS stating something to the effect of "If we have to do any work in creating a custom plan, we're not going to give any refund at all, ever" is poor, and sounds a bit like someone's out to make a quick buck. This is obviously just my view, and I could by all means be wrong, and the moon I really do think is made of cheese.

    As for the OP, this is obviously a lesson you'll remember. You stated that you saw no BBB resolutions, etc.. This should be part of the checks you do "before" you go with a company, and give over almost $1000..

    Anthony, you might want to have your post edited, as you also posted the client's email address, and admin username/password to his script install in your posting. I certainly hope that was just a simple oversight..
    Last edited by TurbulentMedia; 02-05-2006 at 05:56 AM.
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  12. #12
    First, and foremost, I didn't accuse anyone of being anything. When the conversation began it was clear that I would have to explain how I came to this point to order services and ask Anthony Bush if such discussion would offend him. Not to accuse him of not being a Christian -- That's ridiculous, and yet another in a long series of lies and mis-leading statements he will be held accountable for.

    Second -- I never said that his support reps couldn't log in. So I don't know what that statement is about. I said *I COULDN'T LOG IN*

    I have logs as well... When I was having trouble I called a friend who told me a should do a trace route to see if something on my end my be blocking the connection.

    The traceroute made about a dozen "hops" and then dropped off somewhere over by Exovian -- But that's not the point.

    - The point is I cancelled the same day I signed up
    - I was mis-lead during sign-up
    - There is no OBVIOUS in the law -- my lawyer assures me that because of the mis-leading sign-up email this is going to be a piece of cake.

    In the interest of space I had left this part out, but thanks for bringing it up. I did try to give Anthony a second shot and the next day when I asked him if there was any documentation on how to use their system for building sites (they have some kind of sitebuilder software) -- This was their support response which was emailed to me:

    We will have to move you to another server to do this.

    Please answer these routine questions.

    What is the IP you are on?
    Are you on Linux or Windows?
    What is your main domain name?
    What is your main username?
    How many accounts do you have?
    Would you mind moving to one of our other servers?
    What username would you like for SiteBuilder?
    What password would you like for SiteBuilder?
    What is your contact email?
    What is your first and last name?


    At this time, no there is no documentation on it.
    Regards,
    Anthony Bush
    Exovian Hosting Sales and Support
    abush @ exovian.com



    Now at this point it became abundantly clear that their lack of competence was going to continue to be an issue.

    How can a HOST be asking ME, a client, what my IP address is? What the OS of THEIR Server is? Then have the nerve to ask me what my email is (when they're emailing me at the time) as well as my first and last name!

    This is what passes for support over there. So here is an excerpt from my reply:



    I realize that time was consumed on behalf of your staff and offered Mr. Bush a compromise of refunding only part of the full amount in exchange for the early cancellation to cover his time. Mr. Bush rejected this offer, again referred me to the terms of service, and I attempted to accept this, however given recent support responses for what I would consider to be simple questions I can see that this relationship is going to be anything but amicable if I were to remain as a customer.

    I reference a support ticket which was responded to by Anthony Bush where, while in the process of emailing me back at my email account he asked the following “routine” questions which were not seen in any of the previous tickets I had opened.

    We will have to move you to another server to do this.

    Please answer these routine questions.

    What is the IP you are on?
    Are you on Linux or Windows?
    What is your main domain name?
    What is your main username?
    How many accounts do you have?
    Would you mind moving to one of our other servers?
    What username would you like for SiteBuilder?
    What password would you like for SiteBuilder?
    What is your contact email?
    What is your first and last name?


    At this time, no there is no documentation on it.
    Regards,
    Anthony Bush
    Exovian Hosting Sales and Support



    It is clear from the tone and nature of these questions that our relationship will not be amicable. Obviously as the hosting provider your staff is aware of the IP addresses and operating systems of your servers as well as my domain name, my contact email (as this was the email this very message was sent to) and my first and last name.

    I’m writing to ask that you please honor my request for cancellation and that you refund me $839.72

    Having made this purchase from a corporate account I am making this request as the President & CEO of Marshall Diversified, Inc, its officers, stockholders and beneficiaries. Because this is a corporation I must provide due diligence in my actions and follow this through to the fullest extent, regardless of expense.

    In the interest of not taking up any more of your time or expense I ask that you honor my request for refund immediately.




    Now the problem here is that kids are used to dealing with other kids, who they can bully. They can't get it through their minds that someone might actually hire a lawyer, and take them to court. Or how someone could post these details here, and on every forum they can find and dedicated at least 30 mins a day just to ensuring that people hear about it. Its not taking up much of my time, and at this point its a pleasure to spread the word.



    This whole thing -- isn't going away. Its beyond me now and there are over a dozen people and agencies involved. I promise the members of webhosting talk I'll keep them informed.


    --
    Chad
    Last edited by CMarsh; 02-05-2006 at 11:04 AM.
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  13. #13
    Join Date
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    CMarsh, i am very sorry to hear of this, but i only have one question for you.

    Why would you go ahead and pay for 2 YEARS, and not just pay on a monthly basis?
    Sergio D.
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by CMarsh
    It is clear from the tone and nature of these questions that our relationship will not be amicable. Obviously as the hosting provider your staff is aware of the IP addresses and operating systems of your servers as well as my domain name, my contact email (as this was the email this very message was sent to) and my first and last name.
    Chad, you are not the only customer we have. How do we not know the type of hosting you signed up with and what server you are on? Maybe we have more then one server (11 to be exact) and maybe we offer both windows and linux (we do) and maybe we have more then one customer, because you’re not the only one (obviously since we have 11 servers). These are very poor accusations you have just made here.


    Regards,
    Anthony B.
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  15. #15
    Join Date
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExovianAnthony
    Chad, you are not the only customer we have. How do we not know the type of hosting you signed up with and what server you are on?
    After reading that quote again, it actually says "You're not the only customer we have. How do we not know..." and the answer is "I have no idea!"
    I have no idea why you have to ask for the most basic details about your customers hosting.
    Every host should have easy access to that information.

    Good luck Chad - although you probably won't need it.
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  16. #16
    We signed up for 24 months because it was less expensive over time and we were working with donated funds from folks to get the church sermons online we were trying to save every penny.

    The support system they use required me to log-in to submit a ticket, so his response is ridiculous. I put in a username and password to submit that ticket so they had all my account information they needed. They were just trying to be difficult, and they set the tone there. Which really was the straw the broke the camel's back. It became obvious to me at this point that a second chance wasn't going to work and that he (Anthony) was just looking for ways to make things difficult.

    With all the council I've received thus far its apparent that even if they try to fight me they'll end up spending more that that $800 defending themselves in court. So even if I loose, which won't happen, they will have expenses that will more than make up for it. Its clear to anyone with any sense of the law that no lawyer has reviewed their TOS and they're operating under the assumption that it protects them in some way from legitimate legal action.

    They would be well advised to turn this around now and make a commitment to this forum that such actions were in error and try to make ammends. Its clear the court of public opinion is on my side and as this moves forward to an inevitable lawsuit I plan to submit a Press Release and make direct contact with every television, news and radio station in West Palm Beach.

    I'm not out for vengance, I just want our $839.72 so we can use it to get the sermons online through another host.
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  17. #17
    Oh, on a side note, something a bit funny.... I stopped by the office after Church this morning and saw that Bush, Anthony showed up on the caller ID last night at 3:49 a.m. from a 509 area code -- He was at least smart enough not to leave a voice mail with threats, but I can only assume he was calling in regard to this message thread.

    Thank you Anthony. When you do speak to a lawyer inform him that you acting on behalf of Exovian have just established "minimum contact" within the state of Maryland. He'll know what that means.
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  18. #18
    Join Date
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    From reading responses so far, its fairly clear that Exovian are not forward thinking in their approach to customer service, sales or accounting. If i were in Exovians position, i would have had them refunded, and be working on a damage limitation exercise, as reviews of this kind, on a public forum, from a church, will never be a sales boost.

    As the original author of this post seems to not only have his witts about him, along with good legal, and common sense, which seems to clearly be outdoing Exovians quite defensive and aggressive attitude, i applaud Chad for taking such a proactive approach. As far as one of Exovians replys went, "we have more than one customer". Thats surprising, seeing as they need to request all the specifics of their account, down to their name, even when given a username. Any edition of Client Exec or Modernbill will store this information. Even cPanel would store most of the details requested.

    Best of luck to you Chad, although i doubt you will need it. Kudos to you.
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  19. #19
    Thanks for the support Lee!
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  20. #20
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    As I've been following this thread also, I was keeping an open mind until the last post by the host, and this new info about calling in the middle of the night, etc.

    Chad, if the host isn't willing to work with you to come to a refund agreement, and you have exhausted every means to contact them, etc, do what you have to.

    This gives hosts a bad name in general, and I don't like that. It should say something by the BBB online report of the company, stating that they have *never* done anything with any of the complaints they have gotten.
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  21. #21
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    Cmarsh, I hope it works out for you!
    I am curious to know the way you found out about Exovian.
    Was it from this forum, or elsewhere?
    While I can respect any host TOS I just dont buy not honoring a money back guarantee for a custom plan. In fact this is the first time Ive heard of it.
    If you did have discussion prior to signing up were you not told that by signing up for a custom plan you are essentially voiding your money back guarantee?
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  22. #22
    I was never even told it was a "Custom Plan" -- The email link they sent was to a pre-configured "Top Seller" plan of theirs.

    This is what I received:

    To get started, simply click Order Now under the Top Reseller Plan and enter the Coupon CHAD

    Their TOS mentions a CUSTOM PLAN -- words which were never used or conditions explained prior to purchase.

    Their TOS STATES:
    To receive this refund, you may not be on a custom package of any sort. You must be on one of the pre-created packages by Exovian that is listed on our site.

    TOP SELLER is a pre-configured package on their site.

    Their TOS Says nothing of what a Coupon Code is, or how that changes pre-configured packages, but since its not defined as a "Custom Package" its not applicable -- That's the kind of things lawyers tear apart.

    A judge will take one look at this, my evidence, the reports from the BBB, and outcomes from the Attorney General's office investigation and settle it. They're living in a complete fantasy world if they don't think its coming to that. I've got 1500 members in my church, all awaiting to hear the outcome of this. That's a whole lot of very passionate and upset folks who consider this money the property of the Church. To them its like Ben Gabler of Jupiter Florida and Anthony Bush of Yakima Washington have stolen from the collection plate, and there's just no stopping that. We'll be happy to spend 5, 10k even 20k to prosecture for $839.72 on the principal. You don't steal money intended for God's work.

    --
    Chad







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  23. #23
    Join Date
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExovianAnthony
    Chad, you are not the only customer we have. How do we not know the type of hosting you signed up with and what server you are on? Maybe we have more then one server (11 to be exact) and maybe we offer both windows and linux (we do) and maybe we have more then one customer, because you’re not the only one (obviously since we have 11 servers). These are very poor accusations you have just made here.


    ExovianAnthony
    Something you may want to think about:
    A client that spends 800 plus dollars, believe me you are going to remember!
    I just find it really strange that you did NOT mention to the client he would NOT be able to get a refund since he was (in your words) on a custom plan?
    That may be your policy and so be it (although a very poor one) and everyone knows a TOS can be changed at anytime so no one really knows how long that had been there.

    And another thing Exovian
    you do not know this client as you have so darn many but yet he gets his own personal coupon from someone at Exovian:
    To get started, simply click Order Now under the Top Reseller Plan and enter the Coupon CHAD

    Nuff said! CMarsh...keep us updated with your outcome of this ordeal.
    Last edited by Martie; 02-05-2006 at 10:56 PM.
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  24. #24
    Join Date
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    As stated earlier, regardless of who is at fault it's companies like this that make the industry look bad. You can't really expect someone to pay $800 for less than a weeks service.

    It's probably best to stick with well established hosting outfits.
    Clustered Hosting With Continuous Data Protection (CDP)
    http://www.solidinternet.com
    8 Years of hosting excellence!
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  25. #25
    Join Date
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    After looking at the host's TOS, it can't be held up legally in court. A Lawyer did NOT write this.. It's probably a copy of TOS's from other hosts.

    Exovian, you do realize that you have to have a *legal* document that is agreed upon if you want to hold it up in court, correct?
    If you do not state in the order system when a plan is "custom" or not, and don't inform your clients of this, to try and catch them in a loop, you'll be the one getting sued.

    And on a side note - The Steelers just won!
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