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  1. #1
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    Relocating to India or China

    I'm looking to decrease my overhead so that I can increase my number of employees. Therefore I'm looking to relocate either to India or China, from the U.S. I'm Chinese so obviously I feel more at ease in China, with the people and culture. Plus I've just returned from a trip there and I like it.

    However, Indians seem to have a better grasp of English, and that's needed for certain things like customer support, since most of my customers are Americans.

    What I will need are programmers, designers, and tech support people. For tech support, they will only need to communicate via web support tickets and email, and not by phone.

    Does anyone have any input or insight into this? I'm having a tough time deciding. Things like the level of skill between IT people from these two countries, or the pay.

    Also, is anyone familiar with the culture change from the U.S. to India? I've not gone to India yet but I am planning a trip to have a look, just so I can be sure.

  2. #2
    I think this link would help you for relocation; http://www.indobase.com/bpo/future-p...ver-china.html
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  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Skeptical
    I'm looking to decrease my overhead so that I can increase my number of employees. Therefore I'm looking to relocate either to India or China, from the U.S. I'm Chinese so obviously I feel more at ease in China, with the people and culture. Plus I've just returned from a trip there and I like it.

    However, Indians seem to have a better grasp of English, and that's needed for certain things like customer support, since most of my customers are Americans.

    What I will need are programmers, designers, and tech support people. For tech support, they will only need to communicate via web support tickets and email, and not by phone.

    Does anyone have any input or insight into this? I'm having a tough time deciding. Things like the level of skill between IT people from these two countries, or the pay.

    Also, is anyone familiar with the culture change from the U.S. to India? I've not gone to India yet but I am planning a trip to have a look, just so I can be sure.
    Hmm..I am an Indian and I have also visited China (Zhuhai) and I personally think (I quote "it is just my point of view")that the infrastructure is much better in China (especially the special economic zones) than in India.
    However, you are very correct on the English front. As the medium of instruction in many schools is English in India, there is a sizeable number of English speaking population.

    Many Indians do have an accent to their English, but since you have mentioned that the tech support personnel only need to communicate via web support tickets and email I dont think there could be a problem.

    Additionally, there are so many programmers, designers and other IT support staff in India. One more advice, the southern part of India has more number of graduates and post graduates than the northern part of India (Most foreign owned companies are established in the south than in the northern part of India). The most popular destination for IT firms to set up office in South India is Bangalore (However, the infrastructure there is growing worse day by day).

    The other popular destinations are Hyderabad, Chennai, Trivandrum and Cochin. As I was born and brought up in Chennai I would obviously recommend Chennai than other southern regions (Infrastructure is comparatively better).

    Dont worry too much about the culture change. Greater percentage of foreign owned companies are from the United States.

    Pay is also cheap (I don't think it is cheaper than China though). A student fresh out of college will be ready to work for US $ 200 per month.

    The company that I work for is also planning to set up an office in Zhuhai, but we seem to be facing problems communicating with people there in English.

    So that is the story. Now, it is upto you to take a decision on choosing China or India to set up your firm.

  4. #4
    Why not relocate to Brazil - I know that some of you must be saying 'brazil? he must be joking'... here are some advantages: in the same time zone as eastern US, very talented work force, high end infrastructure rocks, plenty of english spoken, very little culture shock (most visitors do not want to leave). And just a 6-8 hour nonstop flight to Miami, NY, Houston or LA. Everyone likes brazilians (in general). And best of all you can go to the beach after work

    A student fresh out of college will be ready to work for US $ 200 per month.
    In BR it is more like US$500/month starting salary. As far as the level of IT, brazillians have been among the leaders in IT security for some time now. Not to mention the design talent.

    I know that this is not what the post is about and this offers little help on choosing between china or india, but I just thought I would toss this in the bag since india/china are the obvious choices but there are many other good (sometmes better) options that get overlooked.

    Good luck with your relocation wherever you go.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by ashridhar
    Hmm..I am an Indian and I have also visited China (Zhuhai) and I personally think (I quote "it is just my point of view")that the infrastructure is much better in China (especially the special economic zones) than in India.
    However, you are very correct on the English front. As the medium of instruction in many schools is English in India, there is a sizeable number of English speaking population.

    Many Indians do have an accent to their English, but since you have mentioned that the tech support personnel only need to communicate via web support tickets and email I dont think there could be a problem.

    Additionally, there are so many programmers, designers and other IT support staff in India. One more advice, the southern part of India has more number of graduates and post graduates than the northern part of India (Most foreign owned companies are established in the south than in the northern part of India). The most popular destination for IT firms to set up office in South India is Bangalore (However, the infrastructure there is growing worse day by day).
    Could you shed some light on infrastructure? When you say China has better infrastructure, what do you mean? And how is Bangalore getting worse?

    Quote Originally Posted by ashridhar
    Pay is also cheap (I don't think it is cheaper than China though). A student fresh out of college will be ready to work for US $ 200 per month.

    The company that I work for is also planning to set up an office in Zhuhai, but we seem to be facing problems communicating with people there in English.

    So that is the story. Now, it is upto you to take a decision on choosing China or India to set up your firm.
    It seems India is cheaper than China, if a newly grad will start at $200/month. In China I think this number is at $3-400.

    Do you have any ideas as to why the company you work for wants to relocate to Zhuhai as opposed to India, or even other parts of China? Are they an IT services company? Or are they in the manufacturing business as well?

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Skeptical
    Could you shed some light on infrastructure? When you say China has better infrastructure, what do you mean? And how is Bangalore getting worse?

    Well, in Bangalore powercuts are a very common thing (you should plan accordingly to have a backup when there are powercuts). The roads are bad. Traffic is insane. On those fronts China is better.


    It seems India is cheaper than China, if a newly grad will start at $200/month. In China I think this number is at $3-400.

    Do you have any ideas as to why the company you work for wants to relocate to Zhuhai as opposed to India, or even other parts of China? Are they an IT services company? Or are they in the manufacturing business as well?
    Our company is not relocating to Zhuhai, but is setting up one more development office in Zhuhai. Yes, we are an interactive 3D visualization and simulation development company (We offer our services and also have our own proprietary products).

  7. #7
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    i think you should go to china

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by zeca40


    In BR it is more like US$500/month starting salary. As far as the level of IT, brazillians have been among the leaders in IT security for some time now. Not to mention the design talent.
    Not to mention the Beaches!
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  9. #9
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    zeca40,

    Security being 'script kiddies', right?
    Personally I've considered moving out of the west solely to reduce my own cost-of-living: I'd still be wary of hiring locals of wherever I went though depending on your type of clients.

    I'd recommend also visiting where you plan to go ahead of time (you've been to China but have you checked out India?). Be thorough and I'm sure you'll find your spot.

    Note: I'd recommend China for you though - why not you're a native you'd fit right in!

  10. #10
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    Relocating or outsourcing?

    Physically moving is a much bigger decision. If you are making the move solely to save on your living costs, don't forget to factor in your entire offline cost - family, friends, culture, entertainment, etc. There is a lot more to life than just economics.

    Also don't forget legal system and freedom. There are still some horror stories about American Chinese that opened companies in China and tried to be honest by refusing to pay bribes. They are currently in Jail in China and nobody stateside cares to help pressure the government to release them.
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  11. #11
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    I don't think you can generalize the kind of service you get just by country, in either country I'm sure there's many professional high quality services available and at the same time lots of poor quality services like any other market and country.

    In India I've always found the communication skills to be an issue, I'm Indian myself and have lived there many years. Even people looking for jobs might take months to just get you their resume, generally those countries aren't going to provide as high quality as other places might on average. Why? There is too much competition to the point where to the general public it's all just who can provide the lowest price and still have something working even if it wasn't done very well.

    Regarding the culture - it's very different, the work ethic is much difference as well including the climate. Why do I mention the climate? I've found that the average worker in an office environment gets less done just because of climate, step outside the office and it's pretty hot and you're sweating both ways to and from work and so most people get less done than they would here in the US. Maybe I'm not making the best of points, but there is definitely a very big difference. You might be better off looking for partners to work with in the UK or just stick with the US.

    Personally, I think moving to another country just to lower your own costs isn't the best move. I would find a way to make it work where are you located now.
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by spiv
    Also don't forget legal system and freedom. There are still some horror stories about American Chinese that opened companies in China and tried to be honest by refusing to pay bribes. They are currently in Jail in China and nobody stateside cares to help pressure the government to release them.
    Yes It seems quite easy to get into trouble with the law in China, and their cooperation with the US hasn't really been that great...

  13. #13
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    You are a Chinese hence you may prefer China. And that may the only point as to why I may suggest China to you for software development and services.

    I strongly recommend India. In terms of infrastructure India and China are almost at par. There is not much of a difference to talk about.

    If I were to get into manufacturing I would go only to China. But when it comes to Software development and services India is the Number 1 choice. That is the reason companies like Microsoft , Google, Oracle, Yahoo, Sun .... have such huge bases here.

    India is quite friendly with the foreigners too. There are companies like Korean Companies like Samsung and Hyundai which do over a billion dollars worth of Business in India.

    Let me give some figures which CEO of top companies promised in the last 2-3 weeks in India.
    Microsoft - 1.6 billion
    Intel - 1 billion
    AMD - 3 billion

    I was seeing an interview of Bill Gates on TV recently (He had come to India for small trip). He was saying that the University system and quality is similar to what they get in the US.. And that is the reason why MS prefers India as the most important country after the US. He said China has a lot of work in that area.

    When I was in the US a couple of months back I had met customer of mine who is mainly into embedded system. He has 2 offices in India in Delhi and Chennai. He said it has been a great experience working with his Indian team. He has about 150 people in these offices.

    India is a lovely country with a great history and lovely future and the present is as bright as any other country in the world


    I hope I was of some help.


    Regards
    Amar
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    The master replied, "When hungry, eat. When tired, sleep. When you need care, come to bobcares...."

  14. #14
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    Although I agree with you overall, India has some real challenges in that government has not invested in infrastructure and doesn't seem to be able to address urgent issues:

    Lack of sufficient roads - 10mile commute in Bangalore takes hours
    Lack of airport capacity/facility - travel to/from India is very frustrating
    Lack of reliable electricity - companies must buy their own generators

    Because of China's strong manufacturing (and centralized government - nobody said a democratic society is always better for making "command decisions") the roads, transportation, and electricity infrastructure are much better in China.

    There is a huge building boom - China is constructing more skyscrapers in the big cities than any other country.

    China also, for better or worse, has a hugely aggressive nuclear energy program and is currently embarked on a long-term plan to build tons of Nuclear powered generators. While all the big Western nuke companies are enjoying the new sales of nuclear reactors (France, US, etc.) we may find ourselves 5 or 10 years out seeing China adding "cheap electricity" to its' global competitive advantages.

    And finally, China has the largest potential new local market for products and services. Companies go to China both for development and also to expand sales into the local market. In India, most companies go primarily for outsourcing, there is some incremental market potential, but nowhere as large a population as China.

    Although the median income is still low in both countries, by sheer numbers the new emerging workingclass/middleclass in China is much larger.

    It's not a surprise (anymore) that the biggest growth in cellphone new users is China and a lot of the new innovative services (text messaging, multimedia, etc.) have started first in Asia/China telecom.

    Quote Originally Posted by bobcares
    You are a Chinese hence you may prefer China. And that may the only point as to why I may suggest China to you for software development and services.

    I strongly recommend India. In terms of infrastructure India and China are almost at par. There is not much of a difference to talk about.

    If I were to get into manufacturing I would go only to China. But when it comes to Software development and services India is the Number 1 choice. That is the reason companies like Microsoft , Google, Oracle, Yahoo, Sun .... have such huge bases here.

    India is quite friendly with the foreigners too. There are companies like Korean Companies like Samsung and Hyundai which do over a billion dollars worth of Business in India.

    Let me give some figures which CEO of top companies promised in the last 2-3 weeks in India.
    Microsoft - 1.6 billion
    Intel - 1 billion
    AMD - 3 billion

    I was seeing an interview of Bill Gates on TV recently (He had come to India for small trip). He was saying that the University system and quality is similar to what they get in the US.. And that is the reason why MS prefers India as the most important country after the US. He said China has a lot of work in that area.

    When I was in the US a couple of months back I had met customer of mine who is mainly into embedded system. He has 2 offices in India in Delhi and Chennai. He said it has been a great experience working with his Indian team. He has about 150 people in these offices.

    India is a lovely country with a great history and lovely future and the present is as bright as any other country in the world


    I hope I was of some help.


    Regards
    Amar
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  15. #15
    Some Indian cities have congestion problems like Bombay and now Bangalore. Then again, isn't New York congested. Why discount the whole country for the sake of a few cities.

    We live in Cochin, a smaller city in the south west coast of India. Its the Internet hub of India(the bandwidth arrives via sea cables here). We have our own Facility, but for Newcomers, Cochin has the Infopark here , where a business can simply come and plugin computers on already built up space/infrastructure. We have wide roads and less traffic(at least in Kakkanad, the outer suburb where the Infopark is situated). The climate is like Florida, no harsh summer and winter, but humid.

    We also have beaches

    China is known for manufacturing and India is known for services. If you're looking for outsourcing, India is the destination. As for the $200 salary, maybe you're talking about several years ago. Now, the salaries have risen. A 3-4 year experienced engineer will be close to $1000. Starting salaries are close to $500 .

  16. #16
    India may turn out to be a better option if you are thinking of relocation. India & China may be neighbours but India is at an accelerating pace on technological front, it is now focusing on its untapped potential & gearing up to be the next hot IT destination.
    1. Indian Government is realizing the IT potential & has been creating special policies for encouragement to Global companies.
    2. Indian universities are churning out thousands of computer graduates .i.e. superior manpower at affordable prices. India has definitely better English speaking population especially in metropolitan cities like Mumbai, Delhi, Chennai, Bangalore & Hyderabad which are adopting western culture.

    3. Every International company has been eyeing or establishing a centre at India. Look at Microsoft, Google, Citigroup, Boeing, etc. These countries must have seen some potential in India before investing their funds & efforts.

    4. India’s Infrastructure is compatible for current requirements, & it is improving every year with increasing demands.

    5. Regarding climate, it is average comparing other northern or southern countries. No extreme heat or cold.

    As pointed out by Cernax - Ankit, its wonder how he could think that Indian climate is so hot that a person can’t work, after all; India is not situated in middle of Sahara desert . Besides, corporate workplaces offer every facility to an employee including suitable environment. India’s technological scenario is rapidly changing & it is gradually gaining a prominent position.
    Last edited by etechsupport2; 01-06-2006 at 07:05 AM.
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  17. #17
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    If I would have been asked , where to go, I will definetly prefer India over China as India is considered to be best mind brains where as China is for manufacturing.

  18. #18
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    Again, I think both China and India have a lot to offer but be careful - thinking China is only cheap labor and manufacturing is very short-sighted and dangerous.

    China is churning out tons of highly educated graduates (PhD level, not just engineers with BS degress) in all disciplines and is doing a lot of new research and engineering, not just coding/implementation of other company's projects.

    The most recent issue of Business Week has an extensive article ("China's B School Boom") on how China has built-up excellent American-style MBA programs (often in partnership with leading US/European business schools) and is now churning out lots of managers and professional leaders - not just coders and grunts.

    China has always been strong in nuclear engineering and now they are working heavily on space programs and telecommunications.

    The homegrown company Huawei has developed routers and networking gear that is going head-to-head against Cisco for less than half the price (yes, there were some allegations of copyright infringement but Cisco settled that last year). They have thousands of engineers and are not just selling in China but now also selling in the US and Europe.

    Quote Originally Posted by cunning
    If I would have been asked , where to go, I will definetly prefer India over China as India is considered to be best mind brains where as China is for manufacturing.
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  19. #19
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    I think both places are good, however what is more important is, what place is better for you.

    What I will need are programmers, designers, and tech support people. For tech support, they will only need to communicate via web support tickets and email, and not by phone.
    Based on your thought of your needs, I would recommend you India. However irrespective of whatever you decide, it might be highly recommended that you first do an extensive online research & make a travel plan for both the countries, especially for the states & cities that you would more likely want to stay in.

    Once you have seen it for yourself, it might be more easy (or more complicated) for you to decide.

    P.S.. If you plan to keep working on Internet, if I am not wrong, China's govt. restrictions about internet might make it more interesting/tough for you. Especially the "so called" free speech concept of USA might not work there.

    Hope this helps.

    Vishal

  20. #20
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    Hi!
    It is interesting that you mentioned Huawei. They have their R&D base in Bangalore, India.
    This news is 2 years old. They have now grown their base a lot more here.
    http://in.rediff.com/money/2003/jun/28huawei.htm

    Why would a Chinese company in mainland China want to come for software development to India ? ... That's the reason same reason why Mirosoft, Oracle, Sun etc. are here.

    India may not be the most developed nation in the world in terms of GDP or per capita. But when it comes to software development and services I think India is the leader as of now.

    Yes the other countries are good and India would not have the leadership advantage forever. But India is a great choice.

    It's like
    cars = US
    Electronics = Japan
    Design = Europe
    Manufacturing = China
    Software = India


    Regards
    Amar
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    The master replied, "When hungry, eat. When tired, sleep. When you need care, come to bobcares...."

  21. #21
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    Thanks for the informative replies!

    In my research I've found that India is indeed better for IT in general, especially with the English speaking population.

    The main thing that's dragging me down is the personal sacrifices I must make. As noted in my first post, I'm Chinese American. In China I can blend in and not stick out like a foreigner, plus I really enjoy the single life there (it's a man's heaven there!).

    Now as for India, I really have no idea. I've never been there, and I'm sure I'll stick out like a sore thumb there as a foreigner. Could some of you who have been there or are based there tell me what I should be in for in terms of personal living? Are there many foreigners there, and what are their experiences like working there? I'm looking at either Hyderabad or Bangalore mostly, but that can change depending on other factors (such as living conditions, life style, talent, etc.).

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Skeptical
    Thanks for the informative replies!

    In my research I've found that India is indeed better for IT in general, especially with the English speaking population.

    The main thing that's dragging me down is the personal sacrifices I must make. As noted in my first post, I'm Chinese American. In China I can blend in and not stick out like a foreigner, plus I really enjoy the single life there (it's a man's heaven there!).

    Now as for India, I really have no idea. I've never been there, and I'm sure I'll stick out like a sore thumb there as a foreigner. Could some of you who have been there or are based there tell me what I should be in for in terms of personal living? Are there many foreigners there, and what are their experiences like working there? I'm looking at either Hyderabad or Bangalore mostly, but that can change depending on other factors (such as living conditions, life style, talent, etc.).

    Hi,

    Good. There are quite a few foreigners in India. Don't worry you would not be sticking out like a sore thumb because there are quite a few tibetans who had migrated to India and you can see them around the cities (Especially Bangalore and Chennai. Not sure about the cities in northern part of India). I have visited Hyderabad quite a few times. I would say, Hyderabad is a much better option. Bangalore is crying out loud for help because it has already become too congested and the authorities are turning a blind eye to poor infrastructure problems that Bangalore is facing right now.

    As for foreigners experience in India. I would say, India has been a lithmus test for many. You have to always expect the unexpected here. Many people cant wait to catch the next flight home. There are a few who seemed to enjoy everything that India offers and stay here permanently. So yeah it all boils down to you.

    Cheers :-)

  23. #23
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    Anyone who is a U.S. citizen considering moving to or establishing assets in another country needs to consider whether or not they would ever want to work for the government or provide government contracts in the future.

    If you have overseas interests it will affect your ability to obtain a security clearance.

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by IRCCo Jeff
    Anyone who is a U.S. citizen considering moving to or establishing assets in another country needs to consider whether or not they would ever want to work for the government or provide government contracts in the future.

    If you have overseas interests it will affect your ability to obtain a security clearance.
    ___________________________________________________________________


    For foreign companies, establishing a subsidiary is the recommended route.
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  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cernax - Ankit
    . . . Why do I mention the climate? I've found that the average worker in an office environment gets less done just because of climate, step outside the office and it's pretty hot and you're sweating both ways to and from work and so most people get less done than they would here in the US.
    Ever heard of air conditioners?
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