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  1. #1
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    Shots Fired On Miami Plane

    An American Airlines passenger has been shot by an air marshal in Miami after claiming to have a bomb in a bag.

    The shots were fired as the passenger attempted to flee into the terminal via a jetway - a bridge link - leading off the plane.

    A Homeland Security official said: "Shots were fired as the team attempted to subdue the subject."

    It is not clear whether the person was shot during a struggle or if they were running away from air marshals at the time.

    The jet had landed at Miami International Airport and is currently on the tarmac.

    It is surrounded by heavily armed police and a stretcher has been removed from near the airliner.

    Analysts say this could indicate that a person has been killed.

    Flight 924 had flown in from Medellin in Columbia - it had been heading for Orlando.

    Defence and security expert Francis Tusa told Sky News that the presence of air marshals in the US was "boosted dramatically post 9/11".

    He added that pilots do not always know an air marshal is on board a flight.
    http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0...205417,00.html


    More info on pretty much all the news sites.
    Steve

  2. #2
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    The man has died from his injuries. I'd like to hear some details about this... something doesn't seem right.

  3. #3
    heard about this on the radio just a few minutes ago. I guess I better google some details.

  4. #4
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    I've been concentrating on a certain sports event in Lisbon most of tonight but this is what i've learnt via CNN >>

    - The man shot dead was a US citizen.

    - 3 controlled explosions have been performed on bags removed from the American Airlines plane during the last 3 hours.

    - A press briefing by authorities is due any time now, hopefully we'll learn such details as to confirmation that this was a genunine threat, otherwise the US security personnel involved will be in the same unfortunate situation as their British [London] based counterparts since July 22nd.

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  5. #5
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    Here's a "breaking news" article from a local Miami newspaper, which has some additional details and comments from passengers:
    http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald...s/13351198.htm

  6. #6
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    Update -

    *A preliminary investigation has revealed that there were NO explosives contained within the bag or the plane as a whole.

    *A woman travelling with the man said he was mentally ill according to reports. There are also claims that his wife shouted after her fleeing husband and the sky marshalls, that he is ill and hasn't taken his medicaqtion.

    *After claiming to have a bomb, he evanded security personnel exiting the aircraft and heading for the terminal building, warnings were shouted but he he apparently made moves to reach into his bag and shots were fired.


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  7. #7
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    Does this remind anyone else of what happened to the Brazillian guy in London? (only difference is that we had just been bombed, USA was bombed 4 years ago)

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Fernandez
    Does this remind anyone else of what happened to the Brazillian guy in London? (only difference is that we had just been bombed, USA was bombed 4 years ago)
    Sure, but if I recall correctly, the Brazilian guy in London didn't verbally or physically threaten the police. He merely ran for his life. The difference? I don't think it's subtle at all; in fact, it's pretty obvious.

  9. #9
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    Well, yes, but if a person is mentally ill - is that any excuse to shoot-to-kill them - I disagreed with what happened to de Menezes (sp?) after the London bombs, and I disagree with this.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Fernandez
    Well, yes, but if a person is mentally ill - is that any excuse to shoot-to-kill them - I disagreed with what happened to de Menezes (sp?) after the London bombs, and I disagree with this.
    So in the future if someone wants to blow up a plane they just have to act mentally ill and they will be fine?
    Steve

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vortex-Steve
    So in the future if someone wants to blow up a plane they just have to act mentally ill and they will be fine?
    No, I didn't say that - however there are ways to stop people without shooting them with the intention of killing.

    Stun guns, and non fatal shots are one option.

    Besides, this person was running AWAY from the plane ...

  12. #12
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    Stun guns, and non fatal shots are one option.
    And that stops them blowing up a bomb? (OK so a stun gun could disable you for a bit, but what if they are wearing an explosive vest which is detonated by the stun gun?).
    Steve

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Fernandez
    Well, yes, but if a person is mentally ill - is that any excuse to shoot-to-kill them - I disagreed with what happened to de Menezes (sp?) after the London bombs, and I disagree with this.
    No, and nor did I profess my agreement with what the officer(s) did today. We still don't know enough of the details, and until we do, I'm not going to make any speculative assumptions -- because they're just that: speculation.

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    From http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/...n1104399.shtml
    An agitated passenger who claimed to have a bomb in his backpack was shot and killed by a federal air marshal Wednesday after he bolted frantically from a jetliner that was about to take off, officials said. No bomb was found.
    So, there was a reason, though, not sure if the reason was worth anything. The guy looks suspicious, runs madly from a plane about to take off, after claiming to have a bomb? Hrrrrrrrrrrrrm, maybe not all there, but definitely a high risk.
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  15. #15
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    It's good to see that these air marshals do their job.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Fernandez
    Does this remind anyone else of what happened to the Brazillian guy in London? (only difference is that we had just been bombed, USA was bombed 4 years ago)
    A bigger difference, assuming the reports are accurate, would be that this guy said that he had a bomb in his bag, and then reached into the bag.

    Stun guns, and non fatal shots are one option.
    Stun guns that work the way they do in the movies, maybe, where getting hit with one instantly knocks the person out... but that's not what they do in the real world. And "non-fatal shots" generally are not allowed by policy in U.S. police agencies. The problem again is the real world vs. the movie world -- real people can't reliably simply shoot a bad guy in the hand as he's reaching for his weapon, which is why real world policy is generally to fire at "center of mass," and not to fire at all unless deadly force is appropriate.
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vortex-Steve
    So in the future if someone wants to blow up a plane they just have to act mentally ill and they will be fine?
    Well, sure, think about it... that'd make perfect sense, because nobody who is mentally ill would really set off a bomb!

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by JayC
    Well, sure, think about it... that'd make perfect sense, because nobody who is mentally ill would really set off a bomb!
    Stun guns take out a person for up to 30 sec last I checked enough time for someone to get to the person and assertaint he situation better.

    The new stun gun designs have the ability for the police officer to keep stunning the victim by pressing the trigger continually as they have a much larger charge capacity now.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Vortex-Steve
    So in the future if someone wants to blow up a plane they just have to act mentally ill and they will be fine?
    Can we then in the future shoot any mentally ill person claiming they have a bomb?

    It all depends on the context.
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vortex-Steve
    So in the future if someone wants to blow up a plane they just have to act mentally ill and they will be fine?
    First of all I don't think a real terrorist will tell you he has a bomb, second he wasn't actually in the plane when he made the threats (the plane had landed and they were on the boarding bridge) and third his wife told them he was "mentally ill".
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  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by J-P
    First of all I don't think a real terrorist will tell you he has a bomb, second he wasn't actually in the plane when he made the threats (the plane had landed and they were on the boarding bridge) and third his wife told them he was "mentally ill".
    so what if he was reaching for a remote switch in his backpack and the explosive was on the plane? makes sense to get away from the aircraft then hit the switch.

    Sorry if I was an Air marshal and someone claimed they had a bomb and was reaching for it... they would be stopped from performing that action.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by esh
    so what if he was reaching for a remote switch in his backpack and the explosive was on the plane? makes sense to get away from the aircraft then hit the switch.

    Sorry if I was an Air marshal and someone claimed they had a bomb and was reaching for it... they would be stopped from performing that action.
    Dont they search hand luggage (ie backpack) before boarding in USA now?

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Fernandez
    Dont they search hand luggage (ie backpack) before boarding in USA now?
    It is ran through an X-Ray machine and read by a human... so are you assuming humans don't make errors?

  24. #24
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    Sorry if I was an Air marshal and someone claimed they had a bomb and was reaching for it... they would be stopped from performing that action.
    Precisely

    his wife told them he was "mentally ill".
    Yeah, and that's to be believed why? Crazy man walks into the plane (airport, whatever), claiming he's got a "bomb". Hello, these people did EXACTLY what they were supposed to.

    Dont they search hand luggage (ie backpack) before boarding in USA now?
    Sure they do, and while that's a good thing, nothing (even not read by human ) is perfect. Anything can slip by Anyone. Hell, they were searching this stuff long before 09/11 but stuff still got through.

    he wasn't actually in the plane when he made the threats
    Does WHERE he was actually , physically matter? No. These people are paid to do a job, and protect airports, planes, etc. Yes, he may (or may not) have been on the plane, that is irrelevant. What is relevant was the man was acting like a madman , screaming "I HAVE A BOMB". If the guy can't be talked to reasonably, hey, there is no alternative.
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  25. #25
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    You know... I am sorry for the guy, his wife and family, and that there was no bomb and he was bipolar, however I think the Air Marshal took the only option he/she had given the reported situation.

    Hindsight is 20/20.

  26. #26
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    Would a real bomber run around the plane screaming I have a bomb, please shoot me?

  27. #27
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    I have mixed feelings on this. There was enough evidence of a threat in front of the eyes of the marshals that they could make a good argument that to abstain from shooting was excessively risky. Still it is sad that an insane person, who was harmless but gave so much indication of being dangerous, had condemned himself to death by failing to take his pill that morning. It would have been nice if the marshals could have discerned the difference in time to not shoot, but that is risky. A cool, calculating, suicide bomber would probably find no advantage to acting crazy--just push the button and the mission is accomplished. Still, sometimes a suicide bomber is not so calm when caught between the mission and so much of human nature that resists the mission, although the decision to push the button could still win out in the end over such internal conflict.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Fernandez
    Would a real bomber run around the plane screaming I have a bomb, please shoot me?
    Who knows?

    The successful ones aren't around to answer that question and neither are any of the witnesses.



    The fact that this part "I have a bomb" was even said, is a threat and should be taken seriously no matter what else comes out of the mouth... even "I'm just kidding" after saying so.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Disgruntled
    A cool, calculating, suicide bomber would probably find no advantage to acting crazy--just push the button and the mission is accomplished. Still, sometimes a suicide bomber is not so calm when caught between the mission and so much of human nature that resists the mission, although the decision to push the button could still win out in the end over such internal conflict.
    And of course the idea of a "cool, calculating suicide bomber" is only one possible scenario. While the air marshal service was strengthened primarily to counter the threat of organized acts of terrorism, while on duty they can't dismiss the possibility of other types of people who may commit acts just as dangerous.

    "Will a terrorist will tell you he has a bomb?" Perhaps not. But there have been many people with bombs who have said so. And, yes, people without bombs who have claimed to have them. The bottom line is, though, that over a hundred people were on the plane, probably dozens of others near enough by to have been in danger if there was a powerful explosion either onboard or on the jetway, and there was an agitated person claiming to have a bomb. What's the greater risk for a law enforcement officer faced with that? If there had been a bomb and they hadn't stopped him, what would we be writing here?

    Look, everyone knows these days you don't even joke about bombs or weapons in an airport or on a plane. That's even the law. I do feel bad for this guy, who it seems was completely harmless and actually a good person (his neighbors, according to reports, are shocked that this happened to him). I also feel bad for the two cops, who will probably be left wondering themselves if they couldn't have done something different. But the reality is that they could not -- the actions they took were exactly what their training and their service's policy required them to do.
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    I also feel bad for the two cops, who will probably be left wondering themselves if they couldn't have done something different.
    And on that note, something completely different to think about.
    These individuals will live with this for the rest of their lives, the fact that they shot a man. No amount of training can prepare you to face that at all.

    10:1 they will find themselves looking for another line of work. Why? These guys aren't heros, they did their job, something that they were trained to do. Yet, in the end, they're the fall guy. Somehow, some way, they'll end taking the heat for this, what heat there is to take, of course.

    As well, part of the "art" if you will of their job is anonymity. Of course, by now that's blown. Not sure if their pictures have been posted yet, but at some point, they definitely will be.

    It's an all around loss situation. These guys (or girls, not sure there) have to live every day of their lives wondering if they could have done something different, knowing that they took someone's life, justified or not. Messy stuff there
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  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by SniperDevil
    The man has died from his injuries. I'd like to hear some details about this... something doesn't seem right.
    Something ISNT RIGHT......

    How could he get on a plane with a bomb AFTER BEING SCANNED @ THE AIRPORT??

    They jumped the gun big time,this country seems to be getting worse,i dunno.........





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  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Dude
    Something ISNT RIGHT......

    How could he get on a plane with a bomb AFTER BEING SCANNED @ THE AIRPORT??

    They jumped the gun big time,this country seems to be getting worse,i dunno.........



    and you'd be saying "man, they really didn't do a good job, especially after 9/11 and all those warnings". it's a sad situation, and the air marshall did what he had to do to protect the people in the airport. there's no telling now days, with people willing to strap bombs to themselves and what not...

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Fernandez
    Stun guns take out a person for up to 30 sec last I checked enough time for someone to get to the person and assertaint he situation better.

    The new stun gun designs have the ability for the police officer to keep stunning the victim by pressing the trigger continually as they have a much larger charge capacity now.
    Actually here is an example of stun guns not working on someone. I'm sure people have heard of this. Took 3 cops with stun guns to take down ex-hockey player Bob Probert.
    http://badjocks.com/archive/jun0604.htm

    "According to police, Probert was yelling at bystanders from the truck's window then jumped out to fight a man. At that point, police tried to arrested him, but they couldn't get the cuffs on him until he had been TAZERED THREE TIMES! At the station, things didn't get any better, according to one officer,"

  34. #34
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    The wife said that the man was bipolar. I suspect that he was not delusional, but he was probably in the crushingly depressed mode. This looks like suicide-by-cop, and people who attempt to get themselves killed this way often succeed.

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Dude
    Something ISNT RIGHT......

    How could he get on a plane with a bomb AFTER BEING SCANNED @ THE AIRPORT??

    They jumped the gun big time,this country seems to be getting worse,i dunno.........



    so let me get this straight

    you're an air marshall. some guy is playing with his bag and announcing he has a bomb. your first instincts are 'nah, airport security wouldve caught any bombs, no need to worry' ?

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slidey
    so let me get this straight

    you're an air marshall. some guy is playing with his bag and announcing he has a bomb. your first instincts are 'nah, airport security wouldve caught any bombs, no need to worry' ?
    Well, what should the first instinc be?

    Should it be to take your gun out and execute the person with one shot between the eyes?

  37. #37
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    i thougth their first instances were shouting at him, and firing warning shots which he ignored (whilst runnign towards the airport terminal and fiddling with the bag he said he had a bomb in)

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Dude
    Something ISNT RIGHT......

    How could he get on a plane with a bomb AFTER BEING SCANNED @ THE AIRPORT??

    They jumped the gun big time,this country seems to be getting worse,i dunno.........
    Ah, come on! Some people need to learn to be able to mentally put themselves in the situation of others. Can you honestly say you would not have shot him if you were the air marshal? If you can, if you really, honestly, can say that, then I feel for you, I really do.
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  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Fernandez
    Well, what should the first instinc be?

    Should it be to take your gun out and execute the person with one shot between the eyes?
    I'm glad they hire competent people as air marshals.

    PS: You seem to really troll the USA/gun threads.
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  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Dude
    Something ISNT RIGHT......

    How could he get on a plane with a bomb AFTER BEING SCANNED @ THE AIRPORT??

    They jumped the gun big time,this country seems to be getting worse,i dunno.........
    If he had run, detonated a bomb and killed 30 people, you'd be complaining and wondering why they didn't shoot him after he explicitly told them and then ran.

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