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  1. #1

    Unhappy Issue with Hongkong data center

    I recently purchased a server from a new data center in hong kong. They were suppose to provide me with 2 ip addresses but they didnt do so. I loged in to WHM and tried to creat a new account but every time i did that it said missing ns2 entry ( because I just had one ip address and I wasnt able to creat the second name server) so I see an option in whm called add an IP to the server i hit the button and it ads i guess around 150 virtual ips to my server. one day after the data center shuts down my server and sends me a bill of $1500. And they tell me that act has cused the data center to go down for the whole weekend. Now i just have a question from you guys is it that easy to put a data server down for 2 days? that means any custemer can put a data center down by pressing one button ? And do you think that I have to pay that bill just because of pressing a button mistaklly in the whm of my own server ?
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  2. #2
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    What a silly issue ! If I were you, I would request chargeback from my bank and go somewhere else!
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  3. #3
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    Im guessing this is with hostfresh .. saw a thread about this the other day.

    I'm not sure how the setup *should* be done but i know from experience a few times where another user in the data centre has added one or more of my ip's causing errors or the ip flips between my box and theirs.

    I agree however that it seems stupid that someone can cause so much damage so easily.

    although you should really have emailed the host and asked for your second ip rather than trying to do it yourself. I dont agree with the $1500 bill for this because i presume it is the hosts job to secure the network not yours.... im sure their must be a proper way of setting it up otherwise all the ddos kiddies would be "1337" and "take down" entire networks simply by binding a few ips on a compromised box... i presume atleast.
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  4. #4
    I asked for the second IP address, they told me they need 24 hours I wait for 72 hours and they havent add the second Ip address and no respose to my emails. So i at the time i thought thats the only option
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  5. #5
    DAM! man just ask for chargeback from your bank those hong kong guys think we are stupid , shut down a data center it's funny... silly issue man !
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  6. #6

    Unhappy issue with the data center

    Hi
    They are threating me that they will send the case to police if dont pay within 6 days what should i do?
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  7. #7
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    They can not do anything, just ignore and call your bank.
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  8. #8
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    Jun 2004
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    Get a lawyer perhaps?

    i wouldnt worry though, hardly your fault. there bad network setup/mistake it seems :/

    were you forced to read there T&C or AUP before signing up? or was it all done by emails.

    if not you have a 100% leg to stand on.
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  9. #9
    Join Date
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    i surgest that you seek legal advise and find out for sure rather than asking people in a forum with no or little legal expertise
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    Electrical Contractors, West Midlands, UK
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  10. #10
    Hello Everyone,

    Since this issue was brought up to the public by Mr. Azar, we'll let you guys know what has happened.

    Last Thursday Mr. Azar has requested for additional IP and we've replied within an hour stated that we need justification per APNIC policy, Mr. Azar has replied with a short sentence (unlikely can justify an IP for it) and so we've forwarded it to our network upsteam.

    Within 24 hours, Mr. Azars paypal subscription was cancelled by himself and 6 hours later the network started to have IP hi-jacking issues, he then tell us his server has been down and we can be sued for considering paypal subscription cancelled for canceling the service. weve sent our network admin in and check out what was happened and found out there maybe an issue with our Cisco switch, however they could not identify it because it was actually someone inside the network was hi-jacking the IPs.

    The issue was lasted since Sunday afternoon (Hong Kong time) until Monday afternoon, during the 24 hours period, our servers keep going down and up every few hours. We then sent our Linux tech in and verify every single machine on that rack and found out Mr. Azars machine was added 152 IPs on eth0.

    We then replied on the ticket system and inform Mr. Azar weve verified him for adding 152 IPs to his server. His reply us and say hes completed the conversation with us and he have contacted the Internet Fraud Complaint Center about this issue and he has the complete right to sue us and that might as well cause to closing down our company.

    We then inform Mr. Azar if he would like to being this further, well as well do it as the issue was verified by NTT/Communication and our techs and the HardDisk has been pulled out for further action and weve send an invoice for $1500 per our AUP/TOS (more than 10 hours with 4 dedicated techs working on a fix).

    He then apologized and said that hes a grade 12 student and do not have money to pay for the charge and admit that he has added 152 IPs by mistake, however how can you believe it can be a mistake to add 152 IPs (he said he clicked a buttom in WHM to add 152 IPs), it was from 103 254, 102 was his own IP. Anyway we were going to let it go and stop messaging him, however he keep messaging us and said that it was our fault and it has nothing to do with himself.

    Anyway since the issue has been brought up again by Mr. Azar, itll force us to take this further, all collected fund will be completely compensated to the affected customers, even thought no one asked for a refund or credit, as our customers has been happy with us.

    Best Regards,
    Bill
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  11. #11
    FYI, we've setup vlan per rack, not by one single customer, as IP justification is a pain in Asia, we however would never charge anything on the IP.

    We've also setup vlan for a smaller amount of servers now and it'll be easier to identify the abuser easier.
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  12. #12
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    I would add that if your host delay in giving you an IP, there is totally no reason to add additional IPs according to your whims. You claim that you are given one less, but you add 152 IPs more! What right have you to be here complaining about?

    This is quite irresponsible behaviour and $1500 seems to be an understatement, they only charge you for the labour incurred but not the downtime they experienced. You should consider yourself lucky. Take it as a lesson and behave more responsibly.

    One button does not cause this. If I did press such a "button" I would have called long distance to HK and alert HostFresh about this rather than causing the unnecessary downtimes and delay by keeping quiet.

    Quote Originally Posted by sph-ray
    I recently purchased a server from a new data center in hong kong. They were suppose to provide me with 2 ip addresses but they didnt do so. I loged in to WHM and tried to creat a new account but every time i did that it said missing ns2 entry ( because I just had one ip address and I wasnt able to creat the second name server) so I see an option in whm called add an IP to the server i hit the button and it ads i guess around 150 virtual ips to my server. one day after the data center shuts down my server and sends me a bill of $1500. And they tell me that act has cused the data center to go down for the whole weekend. Now i just have a question from you guys is it that easy to put a data server down for 2 days? that means any custemer can put a data center down by pressing one button ? And do you think that I have to pay that bill just because of pressing a button mistaklly in the whm of my own server ?
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  13. #13
    Hi
    I think if Hostfresh.com's network is so vounrable that goes down by pressing a button in one of the custmer's server they should consider disabling that button. Not Charging the honest customrs becasue of pressing the money. BTW here is 2 qouts of what they wrote so u can get an Idea of what kind of people they are :
    1."even thought no one asked for a refund or credit, as our customers has been happy with us"
    and in my email:
    2."We've got a few customer cancelled and the others asking for refund/credit, so you must have to pay"
    these are both writen in the same day by hostfresh.com company
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  14. #14
    A paypal charge back was submitted by Azer few minutes ago, we'll seek for legal advice and we'll have everything done in a legal way, we will not comment on this issue anymore.
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  15. #15
    Join Date
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    Good luck hostfresh, one of my servers was affected by this and I know you guys where working hard to find the culprit. I agree with boonchuan that $1500 is very lenient. Looks like sph-ray will definately be learning a good lesson here!
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  16. #16
    That's the reason that hostfresh gives their servers away so cheap. they have too many hidden charges and clearly they have a rude staff. The only people who back them up are their chines colegues
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  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by american-pro
    That's the reason that hostfresh gives their servers away so cheap. they have too many hidden charges and clearly they have a rude staff. The only people who back them up are their chines colegues
    Quote Originally Posted by american-pro
    I agree I am also new to webhostingtalk but what they are doing is not right the weakness of ther network and datacenter is their own problem they shouldnt charge the custemers becasue of that
    Can you tell who's speaking from the spelling.

    And

    Join Date: 11-23-2005

    Anyway, thank you to people who has been supportive, we'll keep up with our support.

    - Bill
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  18. #18
    lol what do you mean detective hostfresh ?
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  19. #19
    even if i was that person, that dosent give you the excuse to rip peple off.
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  20. #20
    http://www.webhostingtalk.com/member.php?u=131413

    http://www.webhostingtalk.com/member.php?u=131440

    Enough said, stop talking to yourself on another thread (http://www.webhostingtalk.com/showthread.php?t=463138) , even though you claim yourself a 12 grade student, you act like 9 years old, anyway I'm off, as this is getting ugly and going no where.

    - Bill
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  21. #21
    dont talk to people that way, this is not china man
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  22. #22
    What is wrong with charging him $1500? I think it is well deserved! That abuser took my machine's IP address making it go offline and affecting many others on the network. Cpanel adding all IP address is one very lame excuse, you have to "enter" each IP to add it to your machine. Also there is nothing wrong with charging the abuser $1500, $1 per IP, and labour cost of 4 techs + damages to OTHER customer's server as well. I am sorry "sph-ray" but your Cpanel excuse is lame.
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  23. #23
    Join Date
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    We then inform Mr. Azar if he would like to being this further, we’ll as well do it as the issue was verified by NTT/Communication and our techs and the HardDisk has been pulled out for further action and we’ve send an invoice for $1500 per our AUP/TOS (more than 10 hours with 4 dedicated techs working on a fix).
    It takes balls to admit that your network (or a large chunk of your network) was down for a weekend, and that it took you 40 man hours to isolate an issue that should have been reasonably simple, I'll definatly hand that one to you.

    Looks like you've got to get some education into those techs to say the least; If you do a vlan per rack/cabinet, trial and error of simply pulling servers offline could have resolved this in a fraction of the time (not to mention, someone just logging into the router and looking for an unusual pattern in the ARP table for the affected IP's).

    While I do agree, customers shouldn't be binding IP's that dont belong to them, I strongly doubt you'd ever get $1500 out of the customer, as I can't for a second believe that you'd be able to establish in court that it *reasonably* took 40 man hours to isolate this issue.
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  24. #24
    well, if someone intentionally abuses, no matter how much you set the price they won't pay it
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  25. #25
    i just know something HOSTFRESH better shut down ur company man, i don't care if that guy is 12 grader or older, he was ur customer ...
    if you don't know how to do busniness shut it down man..
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  26. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by porcupine
    It takes balls to admit that your network (or a large chunk of your network) was down for a weekend, and that it took you 40 man hours to isolate an issue that should have been reasonably simple, I'll definatly hand that one to you.

    Looks like you've got to get some education into those techs to say the least; If you do a vlan per rack/cabinet, trial and error of simply pulling servers offline could have resolved this in a fraction of the time (not to mention, someone just logging into the router and looking for an unusual pattern in the ARP table for the affected IP's).

    While I do agree, customers shouldn't be binding IP's that dont belong to them, I strongly doubt you'd ever get $1500 out of the customer, as I can't for a second believe that you'd be able to establish in court that it *reasonably* took 40 man hours to isolate this issue.
    Myles,

    We at first thought it was an network problem, thus we spent most of the time on checking the 6500, and we did "sh ip arp" on every switch, however it didn't show the machine were using the IPs, it stays at the original machine's mac address, that's why we didn't thought it was someone added 152 IPs into his machine.

    We wouldn't like to make the charge, until he said he'll sue us for taking the server down and has sent a complaint to internet fraud center, thus we'll have to do it in the legal way with proper charge, we then stopped message him and was going to let it go, he then reply and claim it's our fault and said it has nothing to do with him.

    - Bill
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  27. #27
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    I have news. This topic has been covered *many* times on WHT. The topic I'm referring to is giving every single customer a private VLAN. I don't care if the customer was being malicious or not. You're trying to fault him for deficiencies in your network design, which is a sad route to take.

    For the uninformed, a private VLAN simply means that your server's traffic will not be able to contact anything else on the network except for whatever resides in your private VLAN (usually only the nearest router (and whatever else the router will route for you)). This, in combination with individual customer subnets, ensures that IP theft simply doesn't happen. It sounds like HOSTFRESH is using a /24 or larger, shared among several boxes. Not only can customers steal IPs that they're not authorized to have, but as you can see, they can also take down any machine in that segment by duplicating its IP address.

    The bottom line is.. don't blame the customer, blame yourself. Real hosts use private VLANs and customer-specific subnets.
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  28. #28
    Problem with that tical, if you knew how difficult it is to obtain IP addresses in Hong Kong datacenter or even in Asia then you might have a second thought of that Vlan idea. I am sure of hostfresh did have enough IP addresses they would be using Vlan infrastructure.
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  29. #29
    Also, my opinion towards this entire issue comes to the bottom line on principal. "American-pro" is the person that abuse or exploit the network hi-jacking IP addresses. Therefore in conclusion he is responsible for the network outage for certain server machines including my own machines. You can't blame hostfresh that it is their problem when it is obvious that it comes down to "American-pro" intentionally trying to use a huge IP range on his own machine affecting other machines on the network. Yes I may agree that hostfresh could look at making sure this doesn't happen again, but there is no right to blame hostfresh on this as I think IF everyone had right morals, there would be technically no "need" for rules or laws. And in this case, if "American-pro" didn't do what he did, the network would still be running fine without outages. Maybe it comes out to the end of being neutral. 1.) American-pro should not have done what he did. 2.) Hostfresh should ensure in the future this won't happen again. Seems to be the most reasonable outcome in this entire situation.
    Last edited by renegadeavenger; 11-24-2005 at 02:05 AM.
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  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by renegadeavenger
    Problem with that tical, if you knew how difficult it is to obtain IP addresses in Hong Kong datacenter or even in Asia then you might have a second thought of that Vlan idea. I am sure of hostfresh did have enough IP addresses they would be using Vlan infrastructure.
    You're certainly right about that, as I only deal with allocations under ARIN jurisdiction, where /20's flow like wine That being said, I still stand by my remarks. There's a whole plethora of answers to the problem of obtaining additional IP addressing without being wasteful. For one, you could assign the customer a /30, yielding one usable IP address. If customer requests more IP addresses, simply next-hop them individual /32's until you're blue in the face (or you run out of IPs)

    There are other ways to address this problem, like one-to-one NAT, that are even less-wasteful than burning a /30 to give the customer one usable IP. The point is, HOSTFRESH should not expect sympathy for what appears to be a failure to maintain network infrastructure that is adequate for hosting uncontrolled customer machines.

    You know the saying.. "pay to play"
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  31. #31
    hmm I actually don't think hostfresh ever expected sympathy in this.. From what I noticed, american pro the abuser started off this entire topic because he was upset his machine was taken offline ( he did a chargeback on hostfresh and also filed a fraud complaint ) forcing hostfresh to explain how they dealt with it. In general, I don't think this should've made it to the forums at all since American-pro is indeed at fault and should have been working with hostfresh in private on this entire issue. I don't think he had any right to flame on the boards with his current doings.
    Last edited by renegadeavenger; 11-24-2005 at 02:12 AM.
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  32. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by tical
    I have news. This topic has been covered *many* times on WHT. The topic I'm referring to is giving every single customer a private VLAN. I don't care if the customer was being malicious or not. You're trying to fault him for deficiencies in your network design, which is a sad route to take.

    For the uninformed, a private VLAN simply means that your server's traffic will not be able to contact anything else on the network except for whatever resides in your private VLAN (usually only the nearest router (and whatever else the router will route for you)). This, in combination with individual customer subnets, ensures that IP theft simply doesn't happen. It sounds like HOSTFRESH is using a /24 or larger, shared among several boxes. Not only can customers steal IPs that they're not authorized to have, but as you can see, they can also take down any machine in that segment by duplicating its IP address.

    The bottom line is.. don't blame the customer, blame yourself. Real hosts use private VLANs and customer-specific subnets.

    We've setup vlan per rack, thought it's not possible to setup vlan per server/customer as it's hard to obtain IPs in Asia, it's being said on previous thread. The case have nothing to do with it thought, the customer knew he does not have the right to add 152 IPs and he did it intentionally and being silence when the server went down and said they'll sue us for taking the server down.
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  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by HostFresh
    We've setup vlan per rack, thought it's not possible to setup vlan per server/customer as it's hard to obtain IPs in Asia, it's being said on previous thread. The case have nothing to do with it thought, the customer knew he does not have the right to add 152 IPs and he did it intentionally and being silence when the server went down and said they'll sue us for taking the server down.
    I just explained that one-to-one NAT prevents having to burn a /30 per customer, and essentially accomplishes what you have right now, plus private VLANs, and prevents IP theft. Of course, that means you make your router do quite a bit more work. Again, pay to play.

    It was not my intention to single you out. In fact, I'd like to see another thread in the dedicated server forum, that names all the providers out there who do not provide private VLANs and individual subnets per-customer.

    To renegadeavenger: I agree with everything you just said, as evidenced by the complaintant's account being disabled. Apparently the moderators saw it this way as well. It is for this reason that I won't make any further remarks, unless HOSTFRESH has a specific question/comment about the technical aspects of my recommendations.

    btw, happy turkey day for those of you in the states
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  34. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by tical
    I just explained that one-to-one NAT prevents having to burn a /30 per customer, and essentially accomplishes what you have right now, plus private VLANs, and prevents IP theft. Of course, that means you make your router do quite a bit more work. Again, pay to play.

    It was not my intention to single you out. In fact, I'd like to see another thread in the dedicated server forum, that names all the providers out there who do not provide private VLANs and individual subnets per-customer.

    To renegadeavenger: I agree with everything you just said, as evidenced by the complaintant's account being disabled. Apparently the moderators saw it this way as well. It is for this reason that I won't make any further remarks, unless HOSTFRESH has a specific question/comment about the technical aspects of my recommendations.

    btw, happy turkey day for those of you in the states
    Your recommendation is good and we'll definitely look into it and see what can be done with our network, thanks for your advice.

    - Bill
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  35. #35
    hehe, well there was another thread with the person using multiple accounts to flame hostfresh ( unfortunately, it is dumb that both accounts had the same birthdate ) and also making some "Very" I personally found "considered racial remarks".
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  36. #36
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    This incident shows that VLAN or other IP address protection is absolutely necessary for dedicated servers. OP probably didn't foresee the huge problem he caused when he added 150+ IP's. (BTW, that's a lot of IP's to add by hand.) Simple human error may also set the wrong IP. Or if a server is hacked, it could send spam from different IP's at random times through out the day. It would be nearly impossible to track down the culprit.
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  37. #37
    Join Date
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    I thaught their would be another side to the story - sorry about my previous post HostFresh.

    Once again it seems if people are reasonable they will come out better for it. filing a fraud complaint and requesting a chargeback and being generally unreasonable when it was your fault initially obviously didnt work!

    And as for using multiple accounts - just blew any trust anyone had in you.

    unlucky.

    my appologies again hostfresh on previous post.
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