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  1. #1
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    Sep 2002
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    Chargeback Success?

    Hi,

    Has anyone had success in fighting your chargebacks? what was your experience, who was in favor? Acquiring bank or merchant account provider or the issuing bank, tell us your experiences..

    Nish

  2. #2
    Traditionally speaking...a merchant will be liable for all every transaction they accept in a CNP setting.

  3. #3
    Join Date
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nish
    Hi,

    Has anyone had success in fighting your chargebacks? what was your experience, who was in favor? Acquiring bank or merchant account provider or the issuing bank, tell us your experiences..

    Nish
    We have had great success fighting chargebacks , although our fraud procedures are very time consuming.
    Ceridius Networks Sales
    Email/MSN [email protected]
    Ceridius Networks - Reseller of Hivelocity Hosting
    Network Speed Test

  4. #4
    Unfortunately, the chargeback rules are very much in favor of the cardholder so it is difficult for the merchant to win the dispute in a card not present transaction.

    There are things you can do to help yourself. For example, if you ship tangible goods, only ship via courier to the billing address of the card and require the cardholder's signature for delivery. For intangible goods or services, you can do a micro-payment and require the cardholder to log back in and verify ID.

    However, as stated earlier, this stuff is time consuming.
    Dave
    PH: 800-761-7475
    PH: 802-876-5087
    www.RiskPayments.com

  5. #5
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    Thanks for the replies, BTW iam aware of the procedures in fighting it, however need to know how many people really got your money back? and how much time did it take?
    for us it took close to 2 months..

  6. #6
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    Based on a quick statistical sampling that I did on some merchant records, I'd say that if you have a cooperative merchant processor and a streamlined representment/rebuttal process with oversight by someone in the chargeback department, you could be looking at a success rate of 20-30% or more with your chargeback reversals. (Naturally, the exact % will vary from merchant to merchant and even from month to month)

    I can tell you first hand that a lot of it comes down to how well documented your representments are. If you have clear documentation on your order and supporting facts like an AVS match, proof of delivery and/or other related details, then it is definitely worth going through the process of a representment.

    In terms of the timetable to resolve it, you can easily be looking at a 1-2 month window. Nothing moves very fast with exception processing in the bankcard industry due to the interplay between acquiring and issuing banks that are required, not to mention the complexity of the Visa/MasterCard chargeback rules.

    To put it in perspective, the Visa documentation for chargeback handling alone is about 1 1/2 inches thick of material. The only way to really "prevent" a chargeback for approximately 60% of the reason codes available would be to process a transaction using Cardholder Authentication from a company like CardinalCommerce.

    The only caveat for those in the Web hosting industry is that it won't provide protection for subsequent recurring transactions done which do not utilize Cardholder Authentication since the cardholder is not actually present (online) for those.

    Hope that info is helpful!
    CDGcommerce.com - Trusted Merchant Account Solutions since 1998
    Many thousands of successful, growing businesses benefit from our expertise every day. You can, too!
    We help merchants to eliminate gateway costs, reduce & mitigate fraud and achieve streamlined PCI compliance.
    Learn more today at http://www.cdgcommerce.com - we look forward to helping your business grow!

  7. #7
    I'd say 1-2 months is pretty typical. As CDG said, it just takes a long time for the various actors to move information back and forth between them.

    Unfortunately, I don't know of any source for statistics on how many chargebacks disputes are settled in favor of the merchant. I would imagine that issuers and acquirers must track it. It would be interesting to have the numbers.

    Anecdotal evidence seems to point toward the merchant coming out on the short end of the stick the vast majority of the time.
    Dave
    PH: 800-761-7475
    PH: 802-876-5087
    www.RiskPayments.com

  8. #8
    Unfortunately, the chargeback rules are very much in favor of the cardholder so it is difficult for the merchant to win the dispute in a card not present transaction.
    I dont completely agree with that. In a one off transaction - this may be true - but, with a services engagement - ie hosting, support, etc - there is a distinctive papertrail and proof of acceptance of services and charges - ie) 8 month history of monthly transactions, support emails discussing the services, etc...

    Chargebacks are very easy to win if you are in the right...

    HOWEVER

    I can tell you first hand that a lot of it comes down to how well documented your representments are. If you have clear documentation on your order and supporting facts like an AVS match, proof of delivery and/or other related details, then it is definitely worth going through the process of a representment.
    We have found that the battle simply isnt worth the investment - and normally dont participate in such disputes where at all possible... simply put, the secondary costs begin to far surpass the value of the actual chargeback...
    Last edited by cartika-andrew; 11-01-2005 at 06:06 PM.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
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    Thanks for those valuable information,

    Few weeks back we refunded an order worth $210 and in just 2-3 days we got a chargeback for the same and unfortunately we never got the money back in both cases, Is this a common scenario? or it only happens for large merchants like us?

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Nish
    Thanks for those valuable information,

    Few weeks back we refunded an order worth $210 and in just 2-3 days we got a chargeback for the same and unfortunately we never got the money back in both cases, Is this a common scenario? or it only happens for large merchants like us?
    if refund went through by that time, you should have stated it in documents you provide replying to chargeback request.
    there can happen situation that you will lose both chargeback case and refund amt, and noone except you or service hired by you will fight to get at least 1 sum back.

    from cbk fighting companies i could recommend vindicia.com
    they give good service and get their profit as some % of won chargeback sum.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
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    Quote Originally Posted by jinger
    if refund went through by that time, you should have stated it in documents you provide replying to chargeback request.
    there can happen situation that you will lose both chargeback case and refund amt, and noone except you or service hired by you will fight to get at least 1 sum back.

    from cbk fighting companies i could recommend vindicia.com
    they give good service and get their profit as some % of won chargeback sum.
    We did mention in the document provided by the bank, but still no use; however the site you gave is not opening for me

    I have also come across few websites which claim "Sell your chargebacks" do they really work? any experiences?

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Nish
    We did mention in the document provided by the bank, but still no use; however the site you gave is not opening for me
    you have to contact your merchant provider in this case; they should advise as they protect your rights on behalf of visa/mastercard rules

    sorry for the link, add 'h t t p : // w w w.' there, I cant post links as new forum user

    Quote Originally Posted by Nish
    I have also come across few websites which claim "Sell your chargebacks" do they really work? any experiences?
    Real services do work as they sell their ability to fight chargebacks. The thing they are tought to do. They will demand all info about transaction, billing, support and service to make sucessfull chargeback fight, documents they compose must be informative and convincing enough to win the case

    You can hire and form own chargeback team, but it will demand time, resource and finding person who knows all about this to manage the team.. so, extra efforts from your side.
    It is worth just in case you get 10k+ txns/month and 100+ cbks with this

  13. #13
    You should definitely not be getting tagged for the refund and the chargeback.

    The problem is that the merchant is at the mercy of whatever the cardholder claims. You can collect and present specific documentation on the transaction that will refute some chargeback claims but not others. Its difficult to cover all the bases.

    Ideally, you'd like to be able to both fight and prevent chargebacks, but both are time-consuming and expensive, so its not always cost-effective to do both.

    Sometimes, focusing on either prevention OR resolving disputes in your favor can be a better strategy.
    Dave
    PH: 800-761-7475
    PH: 802-876-5087
    www.RiskPayments.com

  14. #14
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    If you refunded a sale to the same credit card that you charged it, a good exception handling system on the settlement network side should be able to catch that and do an "auto-representment."

    That being said, not all settlement network exception systems do that.

    However, you should definitely be able to win the representment by faxing proof of the credit return transaction that was made. There is no situation by which you should be double-debited permanently for the amount of the sale twice... unless your merchant processor is not submitting the representment in a proper format or some other related reason, you should get a successful reversal on the CB sales amount.

    All that being said, just keep in mind that you won't be refunded for the chargeback service fee. So let's say that the sales amount is $250 and the chargeback fee is $25... you would get the $250 reversed but NOT the $25.

    That is not due to the merchant processor being unfair or trying to squeeze out an extra profit but more so a reflection on the fact that every time there is an exception item like a chargeback or retrieval request, a cost is incurred to the ISO/MSP regardless of the result and so this is passed through to the merchant.
    CDGcommerce.com - Trusted Merchant Account Solutions since 1998
    Many thousands of successful, growing businesses benefit from our expertise every day. You can, too!
    We help merchants to eliminate gateway costs, reduce & mitigate fraud and achieve streamlined PCI compliance.
    Learn more today at http://www.cdgcommerce.com - we look forward to helping your business grow!

  15. #15
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    A chargeback reversal isn't terribly difficult as long as you keep good records. The pain of it is the time doing all the paperwork..

  16. #16
    Join Date
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    anti-chargeback mail

    this i the mail i send to all the chargeback con-artists:

    Dear sir
    You are receiving this email because of your successful attempt to chargeback a transaction made on ntpay.com. If you were unhappy with the service provided to you by that website, we would be happy to give you a CREDIT on the purchase, back to your credit card account.
    You have decided to chargeback the item instead, claiming it was a fraudulent transaction. Our systems and FIT (Fraud Investigation Team) have flagged your dispute as inaccurate. We are informing you of this in advance to try and resolve this matter amicably. We are offering you a credit on the account, which would require you to return to your bank and cancel the chargeback.

    If you chose not to cancel the chargeback, and remain under the claim that this was not a valid transaction, we will peruse a fraud investigation against you through the use of our attorneys, and state and federal court. Convictions of such offenses could cost you a minimum fine of $5,000.00 and 6-12 months imprisonment.

    Also we withhold the right to call you in certain hours during of the day and night to remind you about this unresolved issue, what can be very unpleasant to you and your relatives.


    Please work with us on this matter, and it will be solved immediately. You will have to respond to this email with your intentions for us not to peruse legal action against you.

    Sincerely,

    NTGROUP, Inc.

  17. #17
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    I was with you up until the part where you call "certain hours day or night" That seems a bit heavy handed..

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by haimhle
    this i the mail i send to all the chargeback con-artists:
    Did it help?
    I was going to implement alike thing with calling to those who bought our software, activated it, and then came for chargeback for 'Unauthorized Txn' reason

  19. #19
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    Sep 2002
    Posts
    134
    Is it possible for the customer to take back his/her chargeback from his bank? If they do so will the Acquiring bank intimate the merchant?

  20. #20
    Its definitely possible for the cardholder to reverse the chargeback themselves. The resolution will depend on your processor, and whether or not they will count it as two seperate transactions and resolve them one after the other, and also how quickly they move, etc. Unfortunately, even if the cardholder reverses the chargeback it will most likely still count against you in the processing history.
    Dave
    PH: 800-761-7475
    PH: 802-876-5087
    www.RiskPayments.com

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by businessamerica
    Unfortunately, even if the cardholder reverses the chargeback it will most likely still count against you in the processing history.
    yeah, but for card-not-present transactions some chargeback reasons (like Unauthorized Transaction) can't be won by dispute at all unless you have verified-by-visa/cvv2/address verification. So chargeback reversal in this case is huge benefit as you at least get your money

  22. #22
    Without a doubt it is definitely better to win the dispute and get your money back, but a chargeback is a chargeback is a chargeback in the sense that regardless of whether or not you win or lose the dispute it still has a negative impact on your processing history. Even if you win every single time or the cardholders reverse of their own accord every single time, too many chargebacks can put your processing capability in jeopardy.
    Dave
    PH: 800-761-7475
    PH: 802-876-5087
    www.RiskPayments.com

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by jinger
    Did it help?
    I was going to implement alike thing with calling to those who bought our software, activated it, and then came for chargeback for 'Unauthorized Txn' reason
    3 chargebacks was reversed but its just a small part between the whole number

  24. #24
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    Unfortunately, given the vast amount of fraudulent transactions, and fraudulent chargebacks done by people who have in fact ordered and received services, then simply file a chargeback later on. It's why there's a growing number of hosts requiring copies of information such as driver's licenses, passports, and signed CC authorization forms. 3 forms of proof of services provided and ordered is tough to dispute, and has helped us win a much larger percentage of chargebacks than the norm.

  25. #25
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
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    Thanks for all your replies,

    I guess all chargebacks and reversals are handled manually? any idea how chargeback works in POS terminal?

    Also we did induce VBV, after doing this # of orders reduced and we had to resume to normal mode,

    what were your experiences in Vbv or Mcsc?

  26. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Nish
    I guess all chargebacks and reversals are handled manually? any idea how chargeback works in POS terminal?
    Documentation is to be handeled manually, though i managed to create tool making it automatically (well, we have 600 cbks+/month, so it was kind of necessity). Tool gathered all needed info from various systems and gave doc as output.

    On billing side, chargebacks are handeled as per your agreement with bank. For example, you can be autodebited right after you receive chargeback. then u'll get money back only if u win the case.

    reg POS - not sure, if you have info please share

    Quote Originally Posted by Nish
    Also we did induce VBV, after doing this # of orders reduced and we had to resume to normal mode,
    what were your experiences in Vbv or Mcsc?
    i wonder why vbv reduced orders? was it less clicks or less submits?
    possibly this difference are fraudulant orders which entered invalid vbv pass.

    Our experience with vbv (just implemented it) let us get rid of 55% of chargebacks (Unauthorized Transaction chargeback reason), this was first goal of vbv implementation.

    sales didnt go down much

  27. #27
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    With a card present environment, chargebacks are still handled in a similar matter but the disputes rules simply vary.

    In addition, there is a higher frequencey of "retrieval requests" in a card present environment which may then lead to chargebacks if the merchant doesn't respond quickly. There are far fewer retrieval requests in the card NOT present environment.

    Also, the major benefit to Cardholder Authentication technologies like VBV/MSC is that they -block- a chargeback from even taking place IF it is covered by the approximately 60% reason codes supported by that fraud prevention solution.

    In other words, if a cardholder who authenticated a transaction using VBV/MSC tries to charge back a sale that was covered, that chargeback will never even -reach- your merchant account... which is great, since it won't incur any expense to you at all nor will it impact your risk ratios.
    CDGcommerce.com - Trusted Merchant Account Solutions since 1998
    Many thousands of successful, growing businesses benefit from our expertise every day. You can, too!
    We help merchants to eliminate gateway costs, reduce & mitigate fraud and achieve streamlined PCI compliance.
    Learn more today at http://www.cdgcommerce.com - we look forward to helping your business grow!

  28. #28
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    Sep 2002
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    134
    Yes even we have custom-made chargeback handling system to handle for our internal purpose; But any idea how banks handle it?

    We did have problems as many of our customers closed the window before completing the VBV step and emailed us what was it, so we took back it for a short period till we prepare some help for the same.

    CDG thanks for those valuable inputs

  29. #29
    Nish,

    Were you using a pop-up window?

  30. #30
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    i receive 4 CB's from user with muslim name and mailed him that if those will not be reversed i will inform FBI about his contacts with osama bin laden. after a week 3 CB"s was reversed

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by haimhle
    i receive 4 CB's from user with muslim name and mailed him that if those will not be reversed i will inform FBI about his contacts with osama bin laden. after a week 3 CB"s was reversed

    so... because he has a muslim name he automatically knows osama bin laden?


    You might be a little more careful with the racist stuff around here..

  32. #32
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
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    134
    Quote Originally Posted by CardinalCommerce
    Nish,

    Were you using a pop-up window?
    Yup, it was having a POPUP window which prompts for the password

  33. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Nish
    Yup, it was having a POPUP window which prompts for the password
    Well that explains alot. Visa and MasterCard have required that the authentication window if displayed, must be displayed inline within the website. With the inline delivery a merchant retains all the branding and messaging to ensure their shopper that this is an important part of the checkout process, while we are conducting the "look-up" to check enrollment. If a cardholder is not enrolled, or their bank isn't participating the cardholder goes immediately to the confirmation page.

  34. #34
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
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    134
    Thanks for the valuable advice,

    It was how our bank documents gave the integration method, however we will correct it

    Thanks once again

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