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  1. #1
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    • Level 3 and Cogent Reach Agreement on


  2. #2
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    As a client of Cogent , what irritates the living H$#L out of me is the fact they offered single homed Level (3) clients free service for a year , yet when we asked them for an SLA credit due to the B.S. we as a client had to deal with the basically told us to kick rocks. Way to go Cogent.
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  3. #3
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    Under the terms of the agreement, the companies have agreed to the settlement-free exchange of traffic subject to specific payments if certain obligations are not met.
    I think that means Cogent has to pay if it keeps on sending far more traffic to L3 than it was recieving?
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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewhost
    I think that means Cogent has to pay if it keeps on sending far more traffic to L3 than it was recieving?
    That's my take on it as well. Level3 and Cogent learned that this really isn't good for either of them, but Level3 was sick of getting the short end of the stick.
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by justadollarhostin
    That's my take on it as well. Level3 and Cogent learned that this really isn't good for either of them, but Level3 was sick of getting the short end of the stick.
    this will just mean Cogent will change BGP so that it will go over non-L3 routes when transmitting to multi-homed users (eg: Abovenet, WilTel, etc. instead of L3)... meaning someone else gets the short end of the stick o.O
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  6. #6
    There should be no surprise in the fact that Cogent uses its customers as pawns in games of "peering chicken". They've done it now at least three times in the last couple of years (Teleglobe, France Telecom (OpenTransit) and now Level(3)).

    How they thought they were going to muscle Level(3) is beyond me, but so is just about everything that Cogent does.
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  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by ewhost
    this will just mean Cogent will change BGP so that it will go over non-L3 routes when transmitting to multi-homed users (eg: Abovenet, WilTel, etc. instead of L3)... meaning someone else gets the short end of the stick o.O

    That won't matter much. (3) has a fair number of eyeballs, so Cogent is doomed to push far more than it pulls over its peering links with them. They tried to fix the ratios by buying Verio's dedicated access customers, but that really didn't do the trick.

    Just about every network is a sink for Cogent these days. Sooner or later, they'll run out of large networks willing to act as such without compensation.
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by gothambus
    That won't matter much. (3) has a fair number of eyeballs, so Cogent is doomed to push far more than it pulls over its peering links with them. They tried to fix the ratios by buying Verio's dedicated access customers, but that really didn't do the trick.

    Just about every network is a sink for Cogent these days. Sooner or later, they'll run out of large networks willing to act as such without compensation.

    I suppose that's why Cogent was offering rock bottom bandwidth to eyeball broadband ISPs as well, along with dominating the university connectivity market (mostly eyeball)

    Just curious tho, what ISP's in North America are still single homed to L3?
    AFAIK, Roadrunner used to be, but I think they got Cogent as well now?
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewhost
    Just curious tho, what ISP's in North America are still single homed to L3?
    I don't know. But I do know a fair number of ISPs rely on Level3 to provide nationwide dialup POP service, for example the only local dialup numbers where I live are owned by Level3 despite the fact I live in Qwest country for home phone service.
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewhost
    this will just mean Cogent will change BGP so that it will go over non-L3 routes when transmitting to multi-homed users (eg: Abovenet, WilTel, etc. instead of L3)... meaning someone else gets the short end of the stick o.O
    At least they will be spreading the short end out among several different providers. I am not a fan of what Cogent did personally, but I am also not a fan of the fact that Level3 (and cogent as well) depeered with basically no warning.
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by HiVelocity
    As a client of Cogent , what irritates the living H$#L out of me is the fact they offered single homed Level (3) clients free service for a year , yet when we asked them for an SLA credit due to the B.S. we as a client had to deal with the basically told us to kick rocks. Way to go Cogent.

    Why not just tell cogent you're leaving them for L3, and then do it?

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewhost
    I suppose that's why Cogent was offering rock bottom bandwidth to eyeball broadband ISPs as well, along with dominating the university connectivity market (mostly eyeball)

    Just curious tho, what ISP's in North America are still single homed to L3?
    AFAIK, Roadrunner used to be, but I think they got Cogent as well now?

    roadrunner routes through verio to get to cogent.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by gothambus
    There should be no surprise in the fact that Cogent uses its customers as pawns in games of "peering chicken". They've done it now at least three times in the last couple of years (Teleglobe, France Telecom (OpenTransit) and now Level(3)).

    How they thought they were going to muscle Level(3) is beyond me, but so is just about everything that Cogent does.
    isn't that the whole point of business? flex your muscle to get what you want until you bark up a wrong tree or Justice Dept. slap you with a antitrust lawsuit aka Microsoft.

    i don't see what Cogent did is any different than any other business.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by HiVelocity
    As a client of Cogent , what irritates the living H$#L out of me is the fact they offered single homed Level (3) clients free service for a year , yet when we asked them for an SLA credit due to the B.S. we as a client had to deal with the basically told us to kick rocks. Way to go Cogent.
    Thats when you should give them the big middle finger and switch to someone else (if possible)
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  15. #15
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    This seems like it may be a (at least a small) victory for Cogent. I think the bad press probably won them a lot of chips in negotiating with Level(3).

    I wonder if Cogent's quarterly report will indicate what (if any) impact this agreement makes on their bottom line.
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  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by jt2377
    isn't that the whole point of business? flex your muscle to get what you want until you bark up a wrong tree or Justice Dept. slap you with a antitrust lawsuit aka Microsoft.

    i don't see what Cogent did is any different than any other business.

    Actually, the whole point of business is to generate a profit, and therefore to increase the value of your business as an asset to its owners. We all know how Cogent has performed in this respect

    Cogent's business model obviously poses problems when it comes to maintaining settlement-free peering, yet the folks at Cogent have obviously decided that being a default-free network is vital to whatever miniscule chance they have to turn a profit one day. The only choice they have then, is to attempt to be so large as to force everyone to accept Cogent traffic, even when there is no economic benefit in doing so. The only way to do that is to threaten to make its large customer base unreachable to anyone de-peering them.

    When that threat fails to produce the desired result, the muscle flexing is over. Tough negotiation is one thing. Allowing large chunks of the Net to become unreachable for your customers on a regular basis is quite another.

    If you don't mind the disruptions because you want to help Cogent win the war to provide $10/meg transit, thats fine. Somehow I doubt that any significant number of Cogent customers signed up for that, or are even aware of the fact that what they are signing up for is basically an experiment in disruptive pricing that thus far is proving to be questionable from a profitability standpoint.
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by justadollarhostin
    At least they will be spreading the short end out among several different providers. I am not a fan of what Cogent did personally, but I am also not a fan of the fact that Level3 (and cogent as well) depeered with basically no warning.
    Level3 gave Cogent over a month of notice. Cogent simply chose to ignore it.
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  18. #18
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    The agreement does not state Level 3 is prevailing over Cogent in any way. You can safely store away your little can of L3 applauds.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Acroplex
    The agreement does not state Level 3 is prevailing over Cogent in any way. You can safely store away your little can of L3 applauds.
    You've read the agreement?
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by KarlZimmer
    You've read the agreement?
    It's obvious the much-heralded L3 triumph was ashes:
    http://www.hostingtech.com/?m=show&id=976

    The wording makes it obvious it's a business agreement. L3 is being forced to take the rap for their throughtless pulling of the plug; thousands of affected customers complained. The consumer wins.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Acroplex
    It's obvious the much-heralded L3 triumph was ashes:
    http://www.hostingtech.com/?m=show&id=976

    The wording makes it obvious it's a business agreement. L3 is being forced to take the rap for their throughtless pulling of the plug; thousands of affected customers complained. The consumer wins.
    Are you reading a different article than I am?

    They reached a new peering agreement, which is what Level(3) wanted, an agreement that would be mutually benficial and not force them to carry most of the burden, as the previous agreement did. Cogent also got what they wanted from refusing to re-route the traffic by getting back into a peering agreement, though they likely had to give up a couple things, from the previous agreement, to get that. It is still much better than needing to buy the routes. Unless you know the terms of the agreement you don't know how much either side has given in in the agreement. To me it sounds like a good agreement for both sides, not a hit on L3, L3 taking all the blame, etc...

    To me it seems you're simply trying to uplift Cogent and blame it on L3, which I disagree with. The pulling of the plug was not thoughtless. It was done in agreement with the contract and they had given Cogent more than a month's notice. I do not see why any company should be forced to stay in an agreement that helps a competitor and hurts themself. Also, I do like how the whole incident has shown people that they should not rely on any single-homed provider and I am happy that it seems to have been resolved.
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  22. #22
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    When L3 pulled the plug, it was based on their one-sided theory that they, as a "large" company, have to be compensated for traffic and that peering was unacceptable for a provider of their "caliber". What this showed was total contempt towards a large portion of end-users, surfers, businesses and small providers that were left with no accessibility. I do blame L3 because of its arrogance and noted lack of understanding of the market - until the thousands of calls and emails made them re-think their one-sided act. Incidentally, I don't use either Cogent or L3 exclusively; my revenue-generating domain names are parked with a PPC and suffered loss of revenue during the L3 ordeal. Indeed, I am glad an agreement has been reached; in the meantime it became obvious to many that you can't rely on behemoths like L3 to ensure access.

  23. #23
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    The de-peering was based on the idea that they shouldn't benefit a competitor that was costing them money while also losing money on the peering deal itself. The peering agreement wasn't working for them, so they cancelled it, as per the contract. They never demanded that Cogent buy transit from them, etc. and were simply looking for an agreement that worked, as it is my guess that Cogent didn't want to benefit them by giving them a better agreement. Level(3) forced Cogent's hand by de-peering them and then Cogent forced Level(3)'s hand by not re-routing the traffic. They ended up with a peering agreement, thus Cogent's business plan wasn't damaged, and Level(3) got a better peering agreement. Both companies are to be blamed for both the initial issue and both are benefiting in their own way from this new agreement. I thus see no way that this is, "arrogance and noted lack of understanding of the market" on Level(3)'s part. If that is the case you are stating that a company should stay in agreements that lose them money, which just doesn't make any sense.

    Note: It showed you can't rely on any single provider, not just "behemoths like L3" as pretty much any web host using single-homed Cogent was hurt much more than any single-homed web host using single-homed L3. Honestly, those who lost money are the ones at fault, as everyone must take responsibility for their own actions/decisions. If the Internet is critical to you, is the way you make money, etc. you should be able to spend the money to be multi-homed. If you were multi-homed you wouldn't have seen any issues from the depeering.
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  24. #24
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    Well some how everyone hates cogent, I dont mind them as much but what I find interesting is the purchase of Wiltel by Level3. Wiltel provides low cost bandwidth as well which makes me wonder what Level3 is thinking.

  25. #25
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    Funny how people seem to enjoy blaming L3, end of the day its not L3's responsibility if Cogent do not wish to get alternate routes to them and its not L3's problem that people are single homed on Cogent.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by thekia
    Well some how everyone hates cogent, I dont mind them as much but what I find interesting is the purchase of Wiltel by Level3. Wiltel provides low cost bandwidth as well which makes me wonder what Level3 is thinking.
    Hey, you're right! I hadn't heard that. When mentioning such a recent event here, it helps to give us a link, thekia:

    http://www.networkworld.com/edge/new...l3-wiltel.html

  27. #27
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    Mmm, I think that Cogent's trying to use the fact that eyeballs are very vocal in their "online rights"
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  28. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by thekia
    Well some how everyone hates cogent, I dont mind them as much but what I find interesting is the purchase of Wiltel by Level3. Wiltel provides low cost bandwidth as well which makes me wonder what Level3 is thinking.
    There are a few major players that have really contributed to the giant drop in transit prices in the last few years. Cogent is one. Wiltel is another. (3) could be attempting to restore some reality and stability to the marketplace by removing one of the major "bargain basement" transit providers.

    Of course, odds are that the acquisition is also designed to add to (3)'s bottom line by keeping the revenue while dismantling most, if not all, of the Wiltel network.
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  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by seraph1
    Why not just tell cogent you're leaving them for L3, and then do it?
    My guess is that anyone using Cogent is doing so because of the cheap pricetag. Switching to Level3 means shelling out the big bucks.

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