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  1. #1
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    Toyota working on 10 hybrid vehicles


  2. #2
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    I'm waiting for a hybrid vehicle which doesn't have a $8k-$10k markup over gas powered cars.

    When that day comes I'll gladly jump on the hybrid bandwagon. Considering we drive 6k miles per year it would take us around 20 years to save money on gas to justify the hybrid's extra cost.
    What's your budget?

    Seriously, what's your budget?

  3. #3
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    Yes it is, especially with gas prices being so high. My Aunt bought a Toyota hybrid and I love it, it is an excellent car. Plus it satisfies my inner geek

  4. #4
    I remember watching a news special on hybrids vs. normal gas powered cars. The outcome of it was that what you save on gas by purchasing a hybrid after 1 year is only a few hundreds, whereas the markup of a hybrid compared to a gas powered car is in the thousands. I guess it'd be a better choice for those who care for the environment...or maybe things have changed since then. I believe I saw that commercial over a year ago, so things might've changed since.

  5. #5
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    Originally posted by RossMAN
    I'm waiting for a hybrid vehicle which doesn't have a $8k-$10k markup over gas powered cars.

    When that day comes I'll gladly jump on the hybrid bandwagon. Considering we drive 6k miles per year it would take us around 20 years to save money on gas to justify the hybrid's extra cost.
    I felt the same way until I saw and test drove the Prius. I am far from an environmental activist.

    Prius is only about $20K-$28K. It has no non-hybrid sibling like the Civic does to compare what its cost would be.

    It is such a cool car to drive with so many gadgets and actually quite roomy (our main car right now is a Suburban).

    Anyway, I don't own one yet because I'm stationed in Japan but plan on buying one as my high-mileage to/from work vehicle when I get back.
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  6. #6
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    one of my friends picked up a VW Jetta TDI (Diesel), and apparently it gets nearly 1000 km's (~600 mi) to the tank.

    I'm envious, but the price tag was out there (~$33k CDN, around 4x my car budget typically speaking, granted I've never bought new).

  7. #7
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    I see our household eventually jumping on the hybrid bandwagon. We put about 15,000 miles a year on our mini-van and I put about 20,000 miles a year on my primary vehicle.

    Better for the environment and we need to decrease our dependence on petroleum products.

  8. #8
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    I saw a news report from CBC that compared the hybrid versions of vehicles to the 100% gas powered versions.
    I was really surprised with the results. What they showed is that many hybrid cards (if not most) don't get much better gas mileage.
    So really if anyone is looking into buying a hybrid vehicle to save money, better check how much they actually drive. You would have to drive quite a bit to actually save a good percentage of money.

    I wouldn't want to go replacing batteries in the hybrids either. They cost around $2000.00 Yikes
    Last edited by macdonaldp; 08-04-2005 at 01:19 PM.

  9. #9
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    Well, Thats indeed a Good News.
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  10. #10
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    Finally they got an effective hybrid out. I remember the first ones, you spent more money on recharging them than you did on gas. Finally something productive

  11. #11
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    The Honda Insight was a good hybrid car. It was relatively inexpensive all considering. However, it was basically a tin can on wheels.
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  12. #12
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    i just dont like the price either despite the fact i spend over 100 dollars a month on gasoline alone ...... which for me is $1200 a year (coughin an ouch) lol

    im hoping general motors or ford come out with something soon, doesnt have to big a big car just a small one that could seat 2 people maybe and some small cargo for people who go back and forth to work
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  13. #13
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    Now if people really wanted to save money on gas costs they'd go out and buy the smart car. http://www.smart.com

    Yet I've only ever seen one of these driving around.
    It gets pretty much the gas mileage that its rated at.
    37 mpg.
    Last edited by macdonaldp; 08-04-2005 at 05:19 PM.

  14. #14
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    Originally posted by Surpass Networks
    Now if people really wanted to save money on gas costs they'd go out and buy the smart car. http://www.smart.com

    Yet I've only ever seen one of these driving around.
    It gets pretty much the gas mileage that its rated at.
    37 mpg.
    I've seen them in Japan (and many Japanese models like them).

    Not very practical for a family of 5. I can get my kids car seats in the back of a Prius. Even had a 6'3" friend sit in the back comfortably during a test drive.

    Prius gets about 40-60 mpg depending on how driven. There are even "hacks" and "upgrades" that people have done that push the mileage up to 100 mpg. There are some really motivated Prius owners on some forums. Just reading about the engineering and control systems is fascinating.

    I saw a news report from CBC that compared the hybrid versions of vehicles to the 100% gas powered versions.
    Yeah that's true for some of them. In fact a great non-hybrid vehicle with low cost and great mileage is the Toyota Matrix (aka Pontiac Vibe) that gets about 37 mpg. My brother owns one. You can get one for about $15K-$22K. Seats five comfortably.

    One of the reasons some of the hybrids don't get good gas mileage is that they design the electric motor and the gas/electric algorithm in some cars to improve performance rather than mileage. The Honda Accord Hybrid is a V6 that outperforms its gas sibling. Its mileage is around 32 mpg but they don't even offer it in a 4 cylinder version. Even Toyota did that with their Lexus hybrid where they advertise it more for its great performance than for its efficiency. The mileage gains are minimal.
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  15. #15
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    I would love to have a $100 month gas bill. We are between $300-$350 a month.

    Originally posted by gilbert
    i just dont like the price either despite the fact i spend over 100 dollars a month on gasoline alone ...... which for me is $1200 a year (coughin an ouch) lol

    im hoping general motors or ford come out with something soon, doesnt have to big a big car just a small one that could seat 2 people maybe and some small cargo for people who go back and forth to work

  16. #16
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    Remember you can always get a motorcycle, and get between 45 and 60mpg by nature, or a moped/scooter and get upwards of 100mpg . Insurance rates, and initial costs are also signifigantly lower on both (motorcycle insurance is signifigantly cheaper, around 1/2 of my car insurance [in my case, 24/M/Kawasaki Ninja 500R], because the fraud rate is near 0%).

  17. #17
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    Originally posted by Surpass Networks
    Now if people really wanted to save money on gas costs they'd go out and buy the smart car. Yet I've only ever seen one of these driving around.
    Here's a pic of one for sale on a local used car lot.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails smartcar.jpg  
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  18. #18
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    Originally posted by porcupine
    Remember you can always get a motorcycle, and get between 45 and 60mpg by nature, or a moped/scooter and get upwards of 100mpg . Insurance rates, and initial costs are also signifigantly lower on both (motorcycle insurance is signifigantly cheaper, around 1/2 of my car insurance [in my case, 24/M/Kawasaki Ninja 500R], because the fraud rate is near 0%).
    Which is exactly what I did. My Harley got delivered on monday and my insurance for the bike is only $303 a year. I made this choice last time it took me $50 to give me 3/4 tank in my truck.
    This gas price is getting rediculous.
    Looking into getting the wifey a moped
    Dave

  19. #19
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    Originally posted by DavidL
    Which is exactly what I did. My Harley got delivered on monday and my insurance for the bike is only $303 a year. I made this choice last time it took me $50 to give me 3/4 tank in my truck.
    This gas price is getting rediculous.
    Looking into getting the wifey a moped
    Problem with Harleys is the fact that they use rather large engines, and generally as a result aren't generally efficient (relative to their size). Sport bikes compensate the smaller engines, by having signifigantly more robust RPM ranges (>15,000 redlines are so sexy), thus low speed crusing doesen't guzzle fuel as a result of massive (relative to the vehicle) cylinders.

    Granted this has always been the way (imported vehicles versus US ones). in any case, it's better then the truck . Nice to see you picked up insurance for $300, thats a lot less then I pay (~$900 cdn/year, around $700 usd), which is impressive (as my bike is in the small class, and harleys (up here) are generally fairly pricey on insurance (as a result of the engine size, and theft rates).

  20. #20
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    Originally posted by DevilDog
    The Honda Accord Hybrid is a V6 that outperforms its gas sibling. Its mileage is around 32 mpg but they don't even offer it in a 4 cylinder version. Even Toyota did that with their Lexus hybrid where they advertise it more for its great performance than for its efficiency. The mileage gains are minimal.
    Normal V6 Honda Accord has less horsepower, it's slower, and gets about 23 MPG. So I say 9 MPG, faster acceleration, and more horsepower is a great improvement. They could have made it 40+ MPG but it would be slower than the normal one which wasn't their goal.

    And about Smart, those are great little cars, although they are slower than prius by a decade, they have less space, and still use about same or even more gasoline than prius. Plus most current Smart cars probably can't even pass USA crash test since they're so small they would probably roll over 10 times in any car crash. Although that Smart Roadster looks sweet.

    /Wishing I lived in Europe again just for smart roadster and curvy roads.

  21. #21
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    You can't go on EPA estimates, really - Cars will always get fewer MPG than what the EPA publishes. The Toyota Camry gets milage in the upper 20s, and the Toyota Prius gets milage in the upper 40s.
    Originally posted by RossMAN
    I'm waiting for a hybrid vehicle which doesn't have a $8k-$10k markup over gas powered cars.

    When that day comes I'll gladly jump on the hybrid bandwagon. Considering we drive 6k miles per year it would take us around 20 years to save money on gas to justify the hybrid's extra cost.
    The MSRP for the Prius is $23,000, while the MSRP for the Camry is $20,000. My mother was deciding between a Camry and Prius, and went with the Prius (she also drives 20k+ miles per year). The Prius has a smart-key entry system (walk up to the car with the clicker in your pocket, pull the handle, and it opens). You also just have to have the key in the car for it to be able to turn on - Toyota normally only puts these features on their higher end cars and Lexuses. The Prius is a very good deal for its pricetag, even if it wasn't hybrid.

  22. #22
    I have seen a study on a civic hybrid vs a regular civic where they drive across America. The outcome was much less then impressive. Hybrid cars aren't an answer to our energy problems. There are much better alternatives out there like Borax power, Bio Diesel, and other corn based fuels.

  23. #23
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    Originally posted by WHTer
    Normal V6 Honda Accord has less horsepower, it's slower, and gets about 23 MPG. So I say 9 MPG, faster acceleration, and more horsepower is a great improvement. They could have made it 40+ MPG but it would be slower than the normal one which wasn't their goal.
    I understand that. I'm only pointing out that they could have built a V4 Accord Hybrid and gotten pretty good power (electric engines have a lot of torque) as well as better gas mileage. 32 MPG is pretty good for an Accord but I'm just noting that it could be much better if their goals weren't principally marketed toward performance.

    And about Smart, those are great little cars, although they are slower than prius by a decade, they have less space, and still use about same or even more gasoline than prius. Plus most current Smart cars probably can't even pass USA crash test since they're so small they would probably roll over 10 times in any car crash. Although that Smart Roadster looks sweet.

    /Wishing I lived in Europe again just for smart roadster and curvy roads.
    Those size cars are pretty common in Japan. The speed limits here don't go above 80 kph anywhere (and mostly is around 50 kph) so smaller cars are not such a safety thing.

    There was an article in Wired a number of months ago that pointed out the size. The designers have made the frame rigid so the car does not crumple on impact. I don't know why Wired didn't catch them on that as they acted like that was a good thing. Crumple zones were invented so the vehicle could absorb the kinetic energy in a collision as much as possible. With a Smart car all that energy is transferred to the passengers. The brain does not do well in cases of extreme deceleration.
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  24. #24
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    Just for reference, Smart cars are in the US too, are they not? We have plenty up here in Canada, and last I checked, our requirements for crash testing, etc. were along the same lines (if not the same) as the ones in the US.

    Remember that with smart cars, impact is determined by velocity, decelleration, and mass. They have substantially less mass then regular cars (thus the impact is signifigantly smaller when looking at the overall profile), and is likely managed differently then with conventional cars (I would guess that the frame does not crumple, as I believe the engine is in the rear, and the passengers legs would be in the typical crumple zone).

  25. #25
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    I have never seen a smart car here in the usa so I dont think they're here yet. I did remember reading about them thinking of bringing them to USA but of course they would probably modify it to suit USA's standards.

  26. #26
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    I think i seen one at a dealership here in canada. I couldn't believe how small it was.

  27. #27
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    Originally posted by WHTer
    I have never seen a smart car here in the usa so I dont think they're here yet. I did remember reading about them thinking of bringing them to USA but of course they would probably modify it to suit USA's standards.
    I believe they are here, but are not widely used.
    I prefer the Prius, actually. It is very comfortable, quiet, and is a very well made car. Plus it has a good amount of cargo space.

    Now for myself... F250 Diesel all the way

  28. #28
    Instead of a vehicle running on solar power, air, water, whatever they're making these days I'd rather have american muscle. Good ol Camaro, Trans Am, Firebird, Mustang any of those.

  29. #29
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    Originally posted by VistaBlogs
    Instead of a vehicle running on solar power, air, water, whatever they're making these days I'd rather have american muscle. Good ol Camaro, Trans Am, Firebird, Mustang any of those.
    American muscle, like the Houston (Texas) abs? American muscle cars dont really have that much muscle compared to many of the new cars coming onto the roads, and they're extremely inefficient. What kind of car do you drive right now, and can you afford to drive it (or any of the American Muscle cars) when gas hits $4.00/Gal?

  30. #30
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    Originally posted by porcupine
    Remember that with smart cars, impact is determined by velocity, decelleration, and mass. They have substantially less mass then regular cars (thus the impact is signifigantly smaller when looking at the overall profile), and is likely managed differently then with conventional cars (I would guess that the frame does not crumple, as I believe the engine is in the rear, and the passengers legs would be in the typical crumple zone).
    The point is that there is no crumple zone. The fact that they have very little mass is what makes them so hazardous to the driver in a collision. Less mass is bad in a collision.

    You not only have the impulse energy of the smart car but the impulse energy of the larger car you hit in a head on collision.

    The reason Engineers designed crumple zones was to absorb the energy of the collision from both your car decelerating and the other car decelerating head on bumper to bumper. Much of the impulse energy is absorbed by the chage of momentum of a massive engine and the front end being decelerated backward. Since the engine and those front end components have a lot of mass they have the lions share of the momentum (L=mv) compared to the rest of the car.

    Without that crumple zone that energy is communicated across the entire rigid structure to your body strapped in the seat. Your body comes to sudden rest from 60 mph while your organs and your brain keep travelling forward and get squished really badly.

    If you were to pick up a toad, throw it up, and hit it with a bat, the fact that the frog is light won't help it when it rapidly accelerates after striking the surface of a swung bat.
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  31. #31
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    You're assuming its going to hit another car head on. I dont dispute any of the analogies (I'm reasonably well versed in the involved physics), but it does have an effect on other types of collissions, and obviously other vehicles. Remember crumple zones are for more then just passengers (they keep control of what parts of the car effectively get shredded), which is where total mass, and more rigid frame come into play (eg. ensuring the engine doesen't find a way to relocate your spine).

    You may have your friend hit your wrist with a baseball bat, and then hit your knee cap with a baseball bat, the fact that your knee cap is heavier also wont do it any favors either .

    Needless to say, the smaller you get, the fewer options you have, remember, F1 cars can absorb many many times the impact that our current vehicles do. Their nose cone, which has an absurdly low total surface/impactable area (something like 2sqft, correct me if I'm wrong), can capably absorb, and withstand immense impacts. The F1 cars notably also have no crumple zones, a rigid frame, yet high G survivability is signifigantly higher with them (there was a show on the discovery channel awhile back on it, and the figures were just astounding to say the least).

    While the smart technology is unquestionably nowhere near that level, theres got to be a few tricks up their sleeves to cope with crash test requirements.

  32. #32
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    Good points. It likely depends on the collision. I don't think F1 cars get in many head on collisions. I think as long as your "pinballing" around in a solid frame you're in better shape. Unfortunately the driver of a Smart Car won't have a 5 point harness and a helmet.
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  33. #33
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    Originally posted by DevilDog
    Good points. It likely depends on the collision. I don't think F1 cars get in many head on collisions. I think as long as your "pinballing" around in a solid frame you're in better shape. Unfortunately the driver of a Smart Car won't have a 5 point harness and a helmet.
    Agreed, but remember, they been known to hit the wall (which is admitted cushioned, but still, not a whole ton, relatively speaking), at over 180mph, on a reasonably steep angle (30-50 degrees) and still survive. Remember that decelleration is not linear, and 180mph is going to produce many times more then 3x the damage of a similar 60mph impact.

    On a side note, "pinballing" (if you're referring to the driver moving inside the chassis/restraints) is actually worse in most cases from what I understand. Instead of decellerating in one constant direction, they're doing one direction, then nearly the exact opposite (which means its 2x the force, as you're going 60mph to the left, then 50mph to the right, which is 110mph of combined decelleration in theory).

    I dont pretend to know the complex physics involved, but its definatly a point to consider when on the path of "smaller cant possibly be better" in this case.

  34. #34
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    I meant the car would tend to bounce off of things if it came in at an angle when I used "pinballing". The fact that some of the momentum gets carried forward (even on oblique angles) probably helps.
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  35. #35
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    Hydrogen fuel cell vehicals would be a smart alternative, if a hydrogen distribution / pumping system could be integrated with the current gas station system. When I was in England, I was surprised to see a double-length Mercedes bus that was powered by hydrogen. On another note, Honda's hybrids have pretty poor benefits compared with Toyotas hybrids. As for driving smaller cars, welcome to America - Americans have always liked their big cars, and won't start to switch to smaller cars until gas skyrockets even more. But then again, we didn't learn after the oil crises of the 70s...

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