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  1. #1

    Dear President Bush

    Dateline: Monday, July 25, 2005

    Dear President Bush,

    Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I
    have learned a great deal from you and understand why you would
    propose and support a constitutional amendment banning same sex
    marriage. As you said, "in the eyes of God marriage is based between a
    man a woman." I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I
    can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for
    example, I simply remind them that Leviticus
    18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination... end of debate.

    I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some other elements
    of God's Laws and how to follow them.


    a.. Leviticus 25:44 states that I may possess slaves, both male and
    female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend
    of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can
    you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

    a.. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in
    Exodus
    21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for
    her?

    a.. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in
    her period of menstrual uncleanness - Lev 15: 19-24. The problem is
    how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

    a.. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates
    a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev 1:9). The problem is my neighbors.
    They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

    a.. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus
    35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated
    to kill him myself, or should I ask the police to do it?

    a.. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an
    abomination - Lev 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than
    homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this? Are there "degrees"
    of abomination?

    a.. Lev 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I
    have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading
    glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle-room
    here?

    a.. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair
    around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev
    19:27. How should they die?

    a.. I know from Lev 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes
    me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

    a.. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev 19:19 by planting two
    different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing
    garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester
    blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really
    necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town
    together to stone them (Lev 24:10-16)? Couldn't we just burn them to
    death at a private family affair, like we do with people who sleep
    with their in-laws? (Lev 20:14) I know, President Bush, you have
    studied these things extensively and thus enjoy considerable expertise
    in such matters, so I am confident you can help.

    Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and
    unchanging.
    I found this on another site, interesting to say the least.

  2. #2
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    Yes that is very well written. I am tempted to save a copy so that I can produce it next time those bible bashers come knocking on my door. To make it really effective I should purchase a bible and highlight the relevent passages.

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  3. #3
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    Not the first time I've seen this. It's funny, but nothing more than that.

    Edit: As for that dateline, that's not true at all. I saw this... last year probably.
    Last edited by Lev; 07-28-2005 at 08:32 PM.

  4. #4
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    It's slightly old. I once had it posted on my <<< removed >>> site.

    I think it was once posted on WHT.


    [edit]

    yeah, it was: http://www.webhostingtalk.com/showth...hreadid=295560
    Last edited by SoftWareRevue; 07-29-2005 at 10:12 AM.

  5. #5
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    Yeah, it's actually pretty old.... but still a GREAT read!

    Thanks RossH!

    Sirius
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  6. #6
    Yaaaaaawwwnnn.

  7. #7
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    Wow, if Christians would read that it would surely shipwreck their faith as it has mine. That person knows the Bible better than anyone else I've ever met or read in my life.

    ...Kill and eat... Acts 11:7
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  8. #8
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    Re: Dear President Bush

    Originally posted by RossH
    a.. Leviticus 25:44 states that I may possess slaves, both male and
    female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend
    of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can
    you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?
    Time have changed.... Slavery was part of the economics and society... Now it is not. When the revelation came at the time of prophets... The stupid athesits (at those times) had no guideness... had no light... had no order... They allowed slavery, adultery, interest, and many other things which the prophets came to hate or forbid...

    Slavery was part of the daily life, which was very hard to just abolish it immedatly... but God came in a educated way... Treat your slaves like you treat yourselves.. You will be punished for doing wrong with your slaves, it is preferred to free your slaves for the sake of God..

    Without God's enlightenment, slavery would've existed to this day.

    Originally posted by RossH
    a.. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in
    Exodus
    21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for
    her?
    Problem which I hate is when people quote half or little of a paragraph.... just to prove their point... Why not post the whole thing...

    Originally posted by RossH
    a.. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in
    her period of menstrual uncleanness - Lev 15: 19-24. The problem is
    how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.
    She should tell you, if she takes it as an offensive then she is not following God's order...

    Originally posted by RossH
    a.. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates
    a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev 1:9). The problem is my neighbors.
    They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?
    Is it obligatory to sacrafice a bull? Sacraficing to God does not even have to be via killing. You can sacrafice to God that you do not committ adultery when you are able to... not to do lustlous things when you can, but sacraficing it for the love of God..

    Originally posted by RossH
    a.. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus
    35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated
    to kill him myself, or should I ask the police to do it?
    That law only applies to that religion.. not others... Applying God's rules only takes affect when people follow his order and apply religion to state... Also you are not allowed to apply God's punishements.. It is the job of the ruler..

    Originally posted by RossH
    a.. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an
    abomination - Lev 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than
    homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this? Are there "degrees"
    of abomination?
    God's laws are there... Follow them or not.. you will be judge in the hereafter

    And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you:
    Originally posted by RossH
    a.. Lev 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I
    have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading
    glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle-room
    here?
    let him not approach to offer the bread of his God. Which means you do not offer... It does not say anything about attending...

    Originally posted by RossH
    a.. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair
    around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev
    19:27. How should they die?
    Umm.. where does it say they get killed???

    Originally posted by RossH
    a.. I know from Lev 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes
    me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?
    I do not see the relationship here... nothing?

    Originally posted by RossH
    a.. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev 19:19 by planting two
    different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing
    garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester
    blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really
    necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town
    together to stone them (Lev 24:10-16)? Couldn't we just burn them to
    death at a private family affair, like we do with people who sleep
    with their in-laws? (Lev 20:14)
    Again, where does it explain the punishment.... Incest is not allowed in religion, just like not being natural (gay,lesbian)..

    Originally posted by RossH
    I know, President Bush, you have
    studied these things extensively and thus enjoy considerable expertise
    in such matters, so I am confident you can help.
    I really do not see how Bush is following God's words in ruling...

    Originally posted by DevilDog
    Wow, if Christians would read that it would surely shipwreck their faith as it has mine. That person knows the Bible better than anyone else I've ever met or read in my life.

    ...Kill and eat... Acts 11:7
    Everyone on earth does that on daily basis... We kill animals and eat them!

    Peace,
    Testing 1.. Testing 1..2.. Testing 1..2..3...

  9. #9
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    Yaaay for old testament!

    //Not seeing the point of this thread other than another sad little hater. Wake me up when it's time for war.

    Dear Ross,

    Why do you wear so many faces?
    http://images.google.ca/images?q=Ross

    Ah, see: Not everything someone says or does in "your name" reflects on you. The same applies here. I'm not one to say this man is a Christian, or not a Christian but not everyone who does something and uses 'Your name' in it means they're you, a follow of you or a believer in you.

    //In Ross we trust.
    http://images.google.ca/images?q=Ross

    Originally posted by sirius
    Yeah, it's actually pretty old.... but still a GREAT read!

    Thanks RossH!

    Sirius
    Yeah, like 1700 years old. Get over it, you still read that?
    Last edited by David; 07-28-2005 at 11:40 PM.
    David
    Fused

  10. #10
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    Wow, you just took something that is completely against you and just made like it completely part of your belief system and worked it completely into your ideals. If god is god and god is so powerful why wouldn't he just use his power to end slavery and injustice?

  11. #11
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    Sure seems like a lot of hate from people in the old days if they followed the bible .

  12. #12

    Re: Re: Dear President Bush

    Originally posted by azizny
    Time have changed.... Slavery was part of the economics and society... Now it is not. When the revelation came at the time of prophets... The stupid athesits (at those times) had no guideness... had no light... had no order... They allowed slavery, adultery, interest, and many other things which the prophets came to hate or forbid...

    Slavery was part of the daily life, which was very hard to just abolish it immedatly... but God came in a educated way... Treat your slaves like you treat yourselves.. You will be punished for doing wrong with your slaves, it is preferred to free your slaves for the sake of God..

    Without God's enlightenment, slavery would've existed to this day.
    This is an absolutely ridiculous rationalisation. The so called morality that God dictates and people follow would not allow something as immoral as slavery to continue for the sake of appeasing the masses. By your own admission, incest, adultery, and other highly immoral crimes were condemned by the bible, yet slavery was allowed to continue. So I'm slightly confused by your logic. Because the bible says so, is slavery ok today? If you answered no to this question, doesn't that place EVERY other fact of the bible into disrepute. After all, this text is supposed to be our moral compass...and if it was wrong about Slavery, well...you get my point.

    What I find most interesting is your justification that slavery was allowed because it was part of society. You want to hear something interesting....2000 years later homosexuality is part of our society. It exists everywhere (it exists in hundreds of species of animals). Therefore, using your logic as a guide, I'm going to argue that God would allow homosexually if the bible was written today, just as he allowed slavery 2000 years ago because it was part of society.

    The problem with people like yourself is that you will twist the story of the bible to justify any logic which the religous right choose to pilfer to the masses, even when it is an obvious contraction.

    So what is my point. The Bible(or any other religous text) serve little purpose in contempory society where morals, laws and people are dicated by different circumstances (I'm having a lot of trouble remembering the part about human cloning from my Sunday School Classes-get my point). Morals are not absolute, they change with the circumstances of a society, and in between societies.

    I should point out I am NOT against religion. Religion has a place in every society. My problem is people who use a thousand plus year old religious text that contains numerous contradictions to justify vilifying individuals.
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  13. #13
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    Well said Professor... well said.

  14. #14
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    Re: Re: Re: Dear President Bush

    Originally posted by Professor
    This is an absolutely ridiculous rationalisation. The so called morality that God dictates and people follow would not allow something as immoral as slavery to continue for the sake of appeasing the masses. By your own admission, incest, adultery, and other highly immoral crimes were condemned by the bible, yet slavery was allowed to continue. So I'm slightly confused by your logic. Because the bible says so, is slavery ok today? If you answered no to this question, doesn't that place EVERY other fact of the bible into disrepute. After all, this text is supposed to be our moral compass...and if it was wrong about Slavery, well...you get my point.

    What I find most interesting is your justification that slavery was allowed because it was part of society. You want to hear something interesting....2000 years later homosexuality is part of our society. It exists everywhere (it exists in hundreds of species of animals). Therefore, using your logic as a guide, I'm going to argue that God would allow homosexually if the bible was written today, just as he allowed slavery 2000 years ago because it was part of society.

    The problem with people like yourself is that you will twist the story of the bible to justify any logic which the religous right choose to pilfer to the masses, even when it is an obvious contraction.

    So what is my point. The Bible(or any other religous text) serve little purpose in contempory society where morals, laws and people are dicated by different circumstances (I'm having a lot of trouble remembering the part about human cloning from my Sunday School Classes-get my point). Morals are not absolute, they change with the circumstances of a society, and in between societies.

    I should point out I am NOT against religion. Religion has a place in every society. My problem is people who use a thousand plus year old religious text that contains numerous contradictions to justify vilifying individuals.
    /claps

  15. #15

    Re: Re: Re: Dear President Bush

    Originally posted by Professor
    This is an absolutely ridiculous rationalisation. The so called morality that God dictates and people follow would not allow something as immoral as slavery to continue for the sake of appeasing the masses. By your own admission, incest, adultery, and other highly immoral crimes were condemned by the bible, yet slavery was allowed to continue. So I'm slightly confused by your logic. Because the bible says so, is slavery ok today? If you answered no to this question, doesn't that place EVERY other fact of the bible into disrepute. After all, this text is supposed to be our moral compass...and if it was wrong about Slavery, well...you get my point.

    What I find most interesting is your justification that slavery was allowed because it was part of society. You want to hear something interesting....2000 years later homosexuality is part of our society. It exists everywhere (it exists in hundreds of species of animals). Therefore, using your logic as a guide, I'm going to argue that God would allow homosexually if the bible was written today, just as he allowed slavery 2000 years ago because it was part of society.

    The problem with people like yourself is that you will twist the story of the bible to justify any logic which the religous right choose to pilfer to the masses, even when it is an obvious contraction.

    So what is my point. The Bible(or any other religous text) serve little purpose in contempory society where morals, laws and people are dicated by different circumstances (I'm having a lot of trouble remembering the part about human cloning from my Sunday School Classes-get my point). Morals are not absolute, they change with the circumstances of a society, and in between societies.

    I should point out I am NOT against religion. Religion has a place in every society. My problem is people who use a thousand plus year old religious text that contains numerous contradictions to justify vilifying individuals.
    Thanks, you said what needed to be said and in a far better way then I would have.

  16. #16
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    Re: Dear President Bush

    Originally posted by RossH
    I found this on another site, interesting to say the least.
    Interesting but intellectually and spiritually limp. Quoting passages from the Old testament (Law of Moses etc) and dragging them into today's age, after the death and resurrection of Christ (where the law of Moses is no longer valid) might fool some, provide some neccessary justification, but it's not accurate, and like I said, intellectually and spiritually limp.
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  17. #17
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    Re: Re: Re: Dear President Bush

    Originally posted by Professor
    This is an absolutely ridiculous rationalisation. The so called morality that God dictates and people follow would not allow something as immoral as slavery to continue for the sake of appeasing the masses. By your own admission, incest, adultery, and other highly immoral crimes were condemned by the bible, yet slavery was allowed to continue. So I'm slightly confused by your logic. Because the bible says so, is slavery ok today? If you answered no to this question, doesn't that place EVERY other fact of the bible into disrepute. After all, this text is supposed to be our moral compass...and if it was wrong about Slavery, well...you get my point.

    What I find most interesting is your justification that slavery was allowed because it was part of society. You want to hear something interesting....2000 years later homosexuality is part of our society. It exists everywhere (it exists in hundreds of species of animals). Therefore, using your logic as a guide, I'm going to argue that God would allow homosexually if the bible was written today, just as he allowed slavery 2000 years ago because it was part of society.

    The problem with people like yourself is that you will twist the story of the bible to justify any logic which the religous right choose to pilfer to the masses, even when it is an obvious contraction.

    So what is my point. The Bible(or any other religous text) serve little purpose in contempory society where morals, laws and people are dicated by different circumstances (I'm having a lot of trouble remembering the part about human cloning from my Sunday School Classes-get my point). Morals are not absolute, they change with the circumstances of a society, and in between societies.

    I should point out I am NOT against religion. Religion has a place in every society. My problem is people who use a thousand plus year old religious text that contains numerous contradictions to justify vilifying individuals.
    My better judgement tells me not to dignify your post with a response but it is filled with so many factual and logical errors that you seem incapable of discerning.

    I do not believe that God capitulates His standards for any society. Fundamental to His Being is His Immutability - that He does not change. That is not to say that He is static or unable to interact and relate to His creation but that He knows the beginning from the end, is transcendent, and His character is the same.

    What you interpret as contradictions are based on your philosophical assumptions about God and about reason itself. Since such mores (standards) are relative in your estimation they have no power to persuade or bind me as I do not subscribe to your mores concerning God or ethics. Hence, by your very standard that no morals are absolute, you self-refute in every positive assertion that you make and your arguments carry no real weight if we are to be consistent with your belief system.

    Frankly, as you base your entire argument on assumptions about God, autonomous human reason, and ethics that I do not subscribe to, it is folly to try and debate specific passages of Scripture unless you seek to understand truly what the underlying ethic of the Scriptures is about. Trying to foist your worldview on top of a Book that does not recognize your authority to judge it makes no sense. It's rather like having someone from Japan proofreading your English - he may have enough training to recognize a few words and figure out what you're talking about but he lacks the training and understanding of the syntax and rules of the English language to be able to understand it and correct it properly.

    The difference between you and me is not that I don't understand where you're coming from but, based on your statements, you haven't a clue where Christianity and its titans of theology and philosophy are coming from.

    Frankly religiion is useless if it is a fantasy. Even the Apostle Paul calls us believers fools if the facts of the Resurrection are not historical events. We are enjoined to eat, drink, and be merry if it's just some fairy tale that only has utility if we choose to believe it does.

    The original letter above is, quite frankly an exercise in folly.

    What I will not do is answer any of your objections based on YOUR standards of propriety which I am quite sure you will insist upon. I do not recognize your authority to impose your standards upon the text. In fact, as you've already stated you don't even recognize your authority to impose your standard on anything outside of the volume of the universe that your gray matter occupies.
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    Re: Re: Dear President Bush

    Originally posted by azizny
    TThe stupid athesits (at those times) had no guideness... had no light... had no order... They allowed slavery, adultery, interest, and many other things which the prophets came to hate or forbid...
    The credit card companies charge murderous interest rates nowdays, how should they die? Should we kill only the shareholders, employee's, or both?
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  19. #19
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    Originally posted by TheDoctor
    Yes that is very well written. I am tempted to save a copy so that I can produce it next time those bible bashers come knocking on my door. To make it really effective I should purchase a bible and highlight the relevent passages.
    That wouldn't work if they knew their bible etc.

    What would work is open the door wearing only your dressing gown, open at the front. That will get them off your doorstep quick smart.
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  20. #20
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    I've been wondering...why do Chistians eat pork when it's explicitly forbidden in the Bible?

    I just googled that for an answer, but haven't been able to find a clear answer.

  21. #21
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    Re: Re: Re: Re: Dear President Bush

    Originally posted by DevilDog
    My better judgement tells me not to dignify your post with a response but it is filled with so many factual and logical errors that you seem incapable of discerning.

    I do not believe that God capitulates His standards for any society. Fundamental to His Being is His Immutability - that He does not change. That is not to say that He is static or unable to interact and relate to His creation but that He knows the beginning from the end, is transcendent, and His character is the same.

    What you interpret as contradictions are based on your philosophical assumptions about God and about reason itself. Since such mores (standards) are relative in your estimation they have no power to persuade or bind me as I do not subscribe to your mores concerning God or ethics. Hence, by your very standard that no morals are absolute, you self-refute in every positive assertion that you make and your arguments carry no real weight if we are to be consistent with your belief system.

    Frankly, as you base your entire argument on assumptions about God, autonomous human reason, and ethics that I do not subscribe to, it is folly to try and debate specific passages of Scripture unless you seek to understand truly what the underlying ethic of the Scriptures is about. Trying to foist your worldview on top of a Book that does not recognize your authority to judge it makes no sense. It's rather like having someone from Japan proofreading your English - he may have enough training to recognize a few words and figure out what you're talking about but he lacks the training and understanding of the syntax and rules of the English language to be able to understand it and correct it properly.

    The difference between you and me is not that I don't understand where you're coming from but, based on your statements, you haven't a clue where Christianity and its titans of theology and philosophy are coming from.

    Frankly religiion is useless if it is a fantasy. Even the Apostle Paul calls us believers fools if the facts of the Resurrection are not historical events. We are enjoined to eat, drink, and be merry if it's just some fairy tale that only has utility if we choose to believe it does.

    The original letter above is, quite frankly an exercise in folly.

    What I will not do is answer any of your objections based on YOUR standards of propriety which I am quite sure you will insist upon. I do not recognize your authority to impose your standards upon the text. In fact, as you've already stated you don't even recognize your authority to impose your standard on anything outside of the volume of the universe that your gray matter occupies.

    Apperently the the new religious game plan is to talk in circles and use complicated words for no reason.

    Which...... now that I think of it, is alot like the old game plan.

  22. #22
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    What I've read so far is that the general concept is that Christians don't have to live by the rules of the Old Testament.

    Explained here:
    http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1173957

    My next question would then be, why are christians so vocal about homosexuality, while enjoying their ham in the meantime?

  23. #23
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    Originally posted by barleduc
    I've been wondering...why do Chistians eat pork when it's explicitly forbidden in the Bible?
    Where in the New Testament is it "explicitly forbidden" to eat pork?

    Folks, nowhere in the NT is is "explicitly forbidden" to eat pork. It's quite the opposite actually.

    ". . . What God has cleansed, you must not call common". (Acts 10:15)

    Of course, the above quote is an analogy referring to the gospel coming to the gentiles, where the gentiles were refered to as unclean etc.

    It's also a cultural thing too, as pigs in my country are clean and disease free (if that is possible entirely), and raised as such. They're not filthy in my culture, but they are considered dirty and unclean in some cultures. I enjoy my bacon and eggs on a Saturday morning.

    Anyhooooo, each to his own. I'm not a religious person, and cringe at these types of discussions. Been there, done that, bought the T-shirt.
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  24. #24
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    Originally posted by barleduc
    My next question would then be, why are christians so vocal about homosexuality, while enjoying their ham in the meantime?
    1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (New International Version)

    New International Version (NIV)
    Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society

    9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
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  25. #25
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    Originally posted by Aussie Bob
    Where in the New Testament is it "explicitly forbidden" to eat pork?

    Folks, nowhere in the NT is is "explicitly forbidden" to eat pork. It's quite the opposite actually.
    Isn't the OT a significant part of the bible?

    I'm trying to get into a big discussion here, I am just trying to understand the way Christians interpret the OT and NT.

    Because there is no reference to pork in the NT, does it mean it is approved of? Does it work the same with everything mentioned in the OT which is not mentioned in the NT ?

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