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Thread: Is it Legal to?

  1. #1

    Is it Legal to?

    Is it legal to hold a domain name until you get payment for past due Hosting Fees?

  2. #2
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    I'm not a lawyer, but my understanding is no you cannot. It's not legal to seize property because you are owed money or goods.
    If you have to operate your company behind the scenes or under a fake name, maybe it's time to leave the industry and start something fresh.

  3. #3
    Not seizing any property by any means....just not click on the button to "approve" the domain transfer and expending energy.

  4. #4
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    Read the ICANN regulations at http://www.icann.org/registrars/eddp.htm

    My interpretations is that the domain name is separate from the hosting. IF the domain name owner owes hosting money but is current on the domain payments, the domain should be released.

    But again is my interpretation and i'm not sure, and for that reason that is why i don with my customer. If is their domain they can take it wherever they want.
    Jorge Campos | WBpro
    Web Building Professionals
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  5. #5
    Again....just not "expending" any "energy" to approval the domain transfer. However, the policy you just linked to refers to "billing disputes".

  6. #6
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    Look, the client owes you money on the hosting not the domain name registration.

    You can go ahead and not approve the transfer, but in my opinion, it makes you look petty and unprofessional.

  7. #7
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    It's against ICANN policy.

    I don't have a link to the exact clause, but I have read it before and it's pretty clear that the domain cannot be held hostage for other fees not related to the domain.

  8. #8
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    Originally posted by Wullie
    It's against ICANN policy.

    I don't have a link to the exact clause, but I have read it before and it's pretty clear that the domain cannot be held hostage for other fees not related to the domain.
    Yes i think so too, but i just can't find it on the ICANN web site....
    Jorge Campos | WBpro
    Web Building Professionals
    www.wbpro.com

  9. #9
    Yes, you buy the domain somewhere else, dosent link to hosting. If they terminate your account, you still have domain, just change nameservers and switch to different host.

  10. #10
    I just wanted to know what people thought of this....its funny to see all of you condone trying to rip companies off. In actuality, there is nothing you can do to prevent it because you can go directly to the registrar to unlock it. But its amazing the people that like to see companies getting ripped off and come to the defense of the "rip-off-ee"

  11. #11
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    Nobody is condoning ripping companies off. You are putting words in the mouth of every person that replied. What we're telling you is that you cannot simply take a domain and hold it hostage (or not "expend energy" to transfer) simply because you are owed money for something unrelated.
    If you have to operate your company behind the scenes or under a fake name, maybe it's time to leave the industry and start something fresh.

  12. #12
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    Originally posted by Truth_or_justice
    I just wanted to know what people thought of this....its funny to see all of you condone trying to rip companies off. In actuality, there is nothing you can do to prevent it because you can go directly to the registrar to unlock it. But its amazing the people that like to see companies getting ripped off and come to the defense of the "rip-off-ee"
    Are you reading the same thread as me? Where did anyone condone this?

  13. #13
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    How can we ripp people off by telling them that is illegal to hold a domain name and recommending to register the domain with a third party company?

    Maybe you don't know but there still honest companies out there and many of those post on WHT.

    If there are no honest ISP's the you have no hope, just forget about having a domain name and a web site because every body will ripp you off.
    Jorge Campos | WBpro
    Web Building Professionals
    www.wbpro.com

  14. #14
    Its the general tone. The hosting company getting stuck with the free hosting and no fees thats getting ripped off. Yet, just about every runs to the defense of the person doing the ripping off. It kinda makes you loose all hope in humanity.

    You cannot claim that you are "honest" when the general tone is to condone the ripping off companies by clients....thats just as bad as companies ripping off clients. It has nothing to do with honest IP's...the truth of the matter is people are either trying to find ways to rip people off or they are suing people to get a free ride.... Its pathethic

  15. #15
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    Again, point out where we're condoning this. Saying it's a "general tone" doesn't cut it. It's bad that your client didn't pay you for services rendered. Unless you failed to perform your end of the bargain (s)he had no right not to pay you. Holding onto property of him/her not related to the actual hosting service is also a bad thing.

    You cannot claim that you are "honest" when the general tone is to condone the ripping off companies by clients....thats just as bad as companies ripping off clients.
    Does the phrase "two wrongs don't make a right" hold any meaning for you?
    If you have to operate your company behind the scenes or under a fake name, maybe it's time to leave the industry and start something fresh.

  16. #16
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    Originally posted by Truth_or_justice
    Its the general tone. The hosting company getting stuck with the free hosting and no fees thats getting ripped off. Yet, just about every runs to the defense of the person doing the ripping off. It kinda makes you loose all hope in humanity.

    You cannot claim that you are "honest" when the general tone is to condone the ripping off companies by clients....thats just as bad as companies ripping off clients. It has nothing to do with honest IP's...the truth of the matter is people are either trying to find ways to rip people off or they are suing people to get a free ride.... Its pathethic
    FACTS:

    1) Not one person condoned it.

    2) You asked if it was legal, not ethical.

    Do you really have nothing better to do than play word games, asking people if something is legal then slating them because they answered your question?

  17. #17
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    Originally posted by Truth_or_justice
    Not seizing any property by any means....just not click on the button to "approve" the domain transfer and expending energy.
    I imagine you know what a sleazy hostage tactic it is and that its why you are being careful not to identify your fantastic web hosting company.

    So why ask?

  18. #18
    I don think its legal
    IF the guy has paid for the domain then you should give it him
    Don take it away from him cauz he hasnt paid for something else

  19. #19
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    This is actually quite funny, I misread the whole end section of this thread. I quickly scanned it and assumed you were saying it was wrong of us to condone holding a domain hostage.

    Now that I see the actual topic we are on, I have to say it is pretty ironic that you are complaining about ethics when you are considering holding a domain hostage because of unrelated fees.

  20. #20
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    Originally posted by Truth_or_justice
    I just wanted to know what people thought of this....its funny to see all of you condone trying to rip companies off. In actuality, there is nothing you can do to prevent it because you can go directly to the registrar to unlock it. But its amazing the people that like to see companies getting ripped off and come to the defense of the "rip-off-ee"
    You need to jump back a second there grasshopper.

    I ain't condoning ripping a company off, but rules is rules, icann rules say you don't hold domains hostage for other fees.

    I've WANTED to keep domains, oh god how I have, people charging back their hosting, but not the domain registration, people not paying for hosting but still keeping their domains, sure the TEMPTATION to keep the domain is great, but it just ain't #1 allowed by icann best as we can tell and #2 right.

    You don't repossess someone's car when they don't pay their light bill.

    If they owe you money and won't pay, send your collection agency or your lawyer after them. Holding onto a domain name isn't allowed, and it really ain't right, no matter how tempting it may be.
    Gary Harris - the artist formerly known as Dixiesys
    resident grumpy redneck

  21. #21
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    Originally posted by Truth_or_justice
    Its the general tone. The hosting company getting stuck with the free hosting and no fees thats getting ripped off. Yet, just about every runs to the defense of the person doing the ripping off. It kinda makes you loose all hope in humanity.

    You cannot claim that you are "honest" when the general tone is to condone the ripping off companies by clients....thats just as bad as companies ripping off clients. It has nothing to do with honest IP's...the truth of the matter is people are either trying to find ways to rip people off or they are suing people to get a free ride.... Its pathethic
    I think they are saving you trouble with ICANN and possibly any action that the person who owes you may take. Get your collection agency after them.

  22. #22
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    Hosting and Domain Registration are 2 separate fees for 2 separate services.

    If the hosting fees go unpaid, and the customer wants to change registrars, it is your duty to expend energy and approve the domain transfer. The customer DID pay for the domain registration, and as the registrar, you took on the responsibility of managing transfer requests and other duties related to the domain registration.

    If you want to know if it's legal. IT IS NOT.

    Heres a quick story:
    I worked for an electric motor repair company. Days Inn a local hotel, brought us in a pool pump that needed repair. Days Inn already had a past due bill for another pump that we repaired for them. Anyhow, the maintenance guy from Days Inn came down to pick up the pool pump when we told him it wasn't worth repair. My boss at the time got the bright idea of holding that pump hostage because he had the past due bill. About an hour later the cops showed up, and threatened to take my boss to jail if he didn't release the pump.

    In other words, you can not hold Item A hostage because Item B is not paid for. Regardless of what ICANN says, it's not legal.
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  23. #23
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    "Heres a quick story:"...

    Thats a bad example

    "In other words, you can not hold Item A hostage because Item B is not paid for. Regardless of what ICANN says, it's not legal."

    though in this case true, its not always so. read any "DC seizes company xxx's servers after nonpayment" threads for examples. In that case item A (servers) are held in nonpayment for item B (bandwidth/colocation bills).

  24. #24
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    Originally posted by nadtz
    though in this case true, its not always so. read any "DC seizes company xxx's servers after nonpayment" threads for examples. In that case item A (servers) are held in nonpayment for item B (bandwidth/colocation bills).
    And in those cases the contract that the company had to sign in order to colocate servers there includes a clause about holding equipment hostage. You agree to that most any time you colocate hardware.
    Gary Harris - the artist formerly known as Dixiesys
    resident grumpy redneck

  25. #25
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    well friends

    i am no lawyer too; but there is something called lien.
    if u give your made to order tailor 3 sets of material one after the other (at different times) to make you 3 suits; if you try on one, pay for it, take it away. then hes stitched the second, you cant take the third suit material unless u pay for the stitching charges for the 2nd
    just becos u paid the charges for the 1st, even if the dates and timings of the 3 contracts and the execution are different, the tailor still has a lien on the 2nd and 3rd material to cover the costs of stitching the second.
    as long as the domain and hosting have been executed thro ur business, i think you can retain; even if icann says something else.
    icann just determines whether illegal ownership is claimed but as long as u only ask for payment and not misuse the domain, you retain control over it.
    however, u will have to see if it is good business
    my 2 cents...
    regards
    sprint

  26. #26
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    Originally posted by Truth_or_justice
    Its the general tone. The hosting company getting stuck with the free hosting and no fees thats getting ripped off. Yet, just about every runs to the defense of the person doing the ripping off. It kinda makes you loose all hope in humanity.

    You cannot claim that you are "honest" when the general tone is to condone the ripping off companies by clients....thats just as bad as companies ripping off clients. It has nothing to do with honest IP's...the truth of the matter is people are either trying to find ways to rip people off or they are suing people to get a free ride.... Its pathethic
    In all honesty, reading this thread as a neutral party (as we dont sell domains, when we're "ripped off" on hosting fee's, we rarely, if ever persue, a canadian based company [we canadians dont generally sue, 'eh?'], etc.), you look like someone coming to WHT looking for a specific answer, then throwing a tantrum when you dont get it.

    ICANN rules specifically state that if the customer has paid all domain related fee's, its theirs (for the registration period), and you thus have no claims on it. If you find a customer getting hosting, and the domain, and then disputing the hosting charge, the best way (that I can think of) is to bill them both in one transaction. Visa/Mastercard/PayPal wont allow you to dispute only *part* of a transaction, its all or nothing; thus in order to dispute the charge, they'll dispute the domain registration charge, and thus you'll be able to retain it until the issue has been remedied.

  27. #27
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    I don't know, that doesn't sound 100% right neither.

  28. #28
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    I've had my share of billing issues just like everyone else, but I have never resorted to holding files or domains ransom, two wrongs don't make a right!

    I've learned, stay current with A/R and you don't have to worry about chasing people for large past due amounts.
    Kevin

  29. #29
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    "And in those cases the contract that the company had to sign in order to colocate servers there includes a clause about holding equipment hostage."

    Its not "holding hostage" its seizing property in lieu of payment. And yes, I know its part of the contract, I was just playing devils advocate to the person who said seizing property is illegal in regard to nonpayment for something else.

  30. #30
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    Originally posted by nadtz
    "And in those cases the contract that the company had to sign in order to colocate servers there includes a clause about holding equipment hostage."

    Its not "holding hostage" its seizing property in lieu of payment. And yes, I know its part of the contract, I was just playing devils advocate to the person who said seizing property is illegal in regard to nonpayment for something else.
    There is a difference in having a contract that states property can be held in lieu of payment and just deciding on your own to do it without any right. If there is no written out guidelines explaining before hand that the domain may be held to cover back hosting fees (which there wont be since it's not legal) then you can not do it.

    It is not legal in any country or anywhere on the internet. The domain is seperate from the hosting and the domain is fully paid for which means the customer owns it 100% and you have no control over where it goes. If you refuse to transfer the domain (regardless of if you refuse in writing or just dont do it and say nothing) then you are in essence stealing the domain, something which carries jail time almost everywhere.

  31. #31
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    How are we condoning ripping of companies???

    You are in the wrong and you know it!
    Otherwise you should have no problem telling us the name of your company.

    "the truth of the matter is people are either trying to find ways to rip people off or they are suing people to get a free ride.... Its pathethic"

    and your Stealing inorder to get your own way!
    How pathetics that!?
    I could tell you a joke about UDP. But I'm not sure you would get it!

  32. #32
    When they paid you for the domain they have a right to do whatever they damn well please with it.

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