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  1. #1
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    Virtuozzo: load average & `free` accuracy?

    in my Virtuozzo VPS the load average reporting seems to be quite accurate, but i haven't found a command to accurately report the actual memory consumption of individual vps, the command `free` just prints out the memory statistics of the enrtire server



    total used free shared buffers cached
    Mem: 3949800 3939508 10292 0 152160 1430036
    -/+ buffers/cache: 2357312 1592488
    Swap: 30716272 3122480 27593792
    [



    any suggestion is highly appreciated

  2. #2
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    Do I see a 30GB /swap partition?

    Which provider is this?
    30,716,272 MB SWAP??????


    SWAP is NOT memory, !
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  3. #3
    No kidding. I see that 30gb swap partition too.
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  4. #4
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    Whoever is running that shop is NOT A PROFESSIONAL, PERIOD!!!

    I'm STILL amazed at that "free" output.

    Not to mention they're obviously using SATA or IDE, otherwise they'd never waste 300 worth of storage on swap

    Terrible, I'd like to know which provider this is
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  5. Whats wrong with IDE or SATA ?
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  6. #6
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    Whats wrong with IDE or SATA ?
    ON A VIRTUOZZO NODE?????????????????????????

    It's insanity!
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  7. #7
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    That all depends if you've got 10 or 100 people on the node really...

    SATA does a great job for low contention machines. Sure if you're doing a lot of disk I/O it's a good idea, but thats generally only when you put masses of VPS's on an individual host.

  8. #8
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    its an Adiungo VSP

    am i still not able to see my actual memory usage anyway?

  9. #9
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  10. OK then, by your standard what is the ideal/minimum hardware for a virtuozzo node? 10krpm SCSI on RAID 10?

    Originally posted by EuroVPS/Igor
    ON A VIRTUOZZO NODE?????????????????????????

    It's insanity!
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  11. #11
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    we run our Virtuozzo nodes on a minimum of Dual CPUs (Xeons, we have some older nodes on Dual P3T which we will migrate), 2-6 GB memory, SCSI3 10K rpms U160/U320 drives in RAID1 or RAID5 .

    The most important on a VPS node is the memory. And I would always go with SCSI than with IDE. There are reasons why SCSI drives are more expensive than IDE.
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  12. Thats what I thought too. I think hard drives are prety important but I will always give priority to CPU & RAM.

    IMHO, even an IDE drive can pull a Virtuozzo without too much of a problem. Virtuozzo is unlike UML or FreeVPS , its designed to consume less resources.
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  13. #13
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    No, you must have SCSI in a Virtuozzo node.

    It's called TCQ. Tagged Command Queuing.

    No successful companies are going to use SATA or IDE in Virtuozzo nodes and be proud they're doing so.
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  14. Igor, Is it really a MUST?
    There are lots of VPS providers running on SATAs.
    And some SATAs are capable of command queuing(NCQ) correct me if Im wrong. Plus command queuing is not really a MUST for virtuozzo, again correct me if Im wrong.
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  15. #15
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    If you want to run more than 10 VPS's per server (in other words, if you want to make money and stay in business) you must have SCSI.

    To understand the severity of the situation, we started with 6 SCSI drives per array. This is not enough for good performance. We now run Compaq Storageworks 4314R's and IBM EXP300's with 14 drives EACH -- PER server!

    Now, performance is acceptable to us.

    It really is quite simple, you must purchase 14 pcs x 73GB, or 36GB if you wish, minimum 10K (15K makes a BIG difference), couple this with a 64 bit PCI-X (33Mhz is not enough, must be 66Mhz) RAID, with at least 128MB W/B Cache w/battery backup, and you will have a good throughput with your node.

    Many providers running SATA.. What can I say, it is not a good idea. Read about what happens on 3Ware 7XXX controllers, there is one forum that discusses hardware & there are dozens of people screaming that their entire RAID array was lost due to controller parity errors. We cannot afford this type of failure, and as such will only use heavy duty SCSI RAID controllers.

    Like I said, we're talking about serious providers, if you want to run 5-6 VE's, you can do it on a Maxtor 10GB IDE. That is not what we are doing, performance is key here.

    Another thing is RAM, our first VZ nodes had 4GB. This is nothing. Now the minimum we run is 6GB, with new machines all starting with 16GB RAM. RAM is not so expensive as to make a problem in the purchase of said VZ node. With Virtuozzo, and any Virtualization technology RAM is key. If one VZ node has 16GB RAM, and 8GB /swap, the /swap will likely never be touched. We have seen in our own nodes that our 16GB nodes run MUCH faster than the 6GB nodes.

    Problem is that most servers have 6 slots:

    6 x 1GB DDR-2 PC3200 3-3-3 ECC REG =
    6 x 210 = 1200~ mininum

    6 x 2GB DDR-2 PC3200 3-3-3 ECC REG - Must be single rank, max 8 ranks per server
    6 x 800 = 4800~ minimum

    Obviously you see the difference in costs. For one starter company to run more than 6GB is difficult, as it was for us in beginning. However as time passes and you add customers, and you are also add new servers, you must consider that adding 12GB-16GB+ RAM is an investment in your company.

    I am not saying that someone that wants to run some basic VPS company with SATA is bad businessman, for god's sake; however it is not the IDEAL environment for buliding VPS platform for multiple VPS customers. Please understand I am trying to make it clear that for best economic return for you as business/company, you must use SCSI and as much RAM as possible. After all only one who truly benefits is you as business, because your customers are happy, and you will get more customers as result of this - thus netto profit increases.

    If you know how much Virtuozzo cost is, you will not be thinking in your mind to run 5-6 VE's per node. You will never make a positive profit in this way.

    Yes I know that you cannot "lease" such a server from some datacenter or server provider, so lease your own from Dell in this case, they have good leasing arrangements if you do not have cash to buy such server.

    Big companies such as, well let me not name names, but the big companies, they are all using SCSI, and good SCSI at that. You see the difference RAID 5 vs RAID 10 SCSI makes, you think SATA is possible to use in Virtuozzo?? I think not.



    Regards,
    Igor
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  16. #16
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    very informative the comments you gave

    i'd be glad if someone can take time to answer me original post as well regarding accurate memory usage reporting in virtuzzo


  17. #17
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    You can see this in VZPP, Virtuozzo Power Panel

    https://YOUR.IP.GOES.HERE:4643

    Login with root password
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  18. #18
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    Igor,

    I won't necessarily agree with you. Instead of making one super box and put more VPS to it, I have always approached it with making two-three less stellar box and put half or one third of VPS on each box. Going with 16 GB of memory per hardware node might be needed in VMWare, but certainly not in Virtuozzo. And no, we don't plan to put 16 GB per node even on our Virtuozzo nodes. 6 GB per node is good. Just put less VPS on it. Spend the money on getting extra 6 GB (in your calculation, a difference of 3600 Euro?) on an extra hardware node or more and distribute your VPS on these additional nodes.

    And, no, we don't agree to make 14 drives in RAID5 array. Again, for the same reason. Use more nodes and put less VPS per node.

    Our standard setup is simple, 6 GB of memory, 4-5 drives in RAID5, and Dual Xeons CPUs. I have yet to hear our customer even complain about their VPS performance. In fact, on our older node, Dual P3/T 1.13 GHz, 2 GB memory, and RAID1 drives, I have yet to hear any customer complain on the host node performance. Nadda, zilch, nothing.

    If you want to make a super duper server and then only put 10 VPS on it, then all the power for you of course For me, less powerful nodes but more in quantity always works better.

    And I am not sure what's wrong with SATA drives. Even SW-Soft is not forbidding people to use SATA. We won't use SATA not because of performance (I never really know the performance difference anyway), but for reliability reason.
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  19. #19
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    We have many VZ nodes, and they're all strong, super servers

    We have a couple of baby nodes as spares (baby node = 2GB, 4GB RAM), as well as a node with just 1GB RAM but a 10 drive 1.6" SCSI array full of 182GB disks. We use this one for Backup.

    SW-Soft is very much discouraging use of SATA, mail their support and ask them.

    Regards,
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  20. Igor thanks for the good info in the previous post.
    Your server is really hardcore. But I sort of prefer FHDave's setup.
    And if you are squeezing so many clients on that one super server, how are you going to allocate enough CPU power to each account?
    I think that the processing power is going to be the bottleneck.

    And what about 4 X WD Raptor (SATA) in Raid 10 array?
    I don't believe that it is going to be a problem.
    Raptor is 10k rpm and supports command queuing as you mentioned earlier.
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  21. #21
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    We are not squeezing any clients on any server, don't assume unless you know. CPU is not the bottleneck in this business.

    Our processors are idle 70-80% of the time.

    Unless you have experience in this business, you cannot imagine how a Virtuozzo node will act under load. I have no idea about the WD Raptor, why would I do that? To have 140GB storage? What will I do with 140GB storage in a VZ node?

    Anyway, I'm off this thread. Once you build your first node and get the feel of it, you'll know what I'm talking about.
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  22. #22
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    Originally posted by EuroVPS/Igor
    Anyway, I'm off this thread. Once you build your first node and get the feel of it, you'll know what I'm talking about
    I have several VZ nodes. In fact, I was the first few SW-Soft customers back in the day when they use "VE" instead of "VPS". I do believe I helped them change the word "VE" to "VPS"! When their sales are still talking about "VE", I always replied back with the term "VPS".

    Anyway I am not sure if I understand what you are saying. What's wrong with having 140 GB on a VZ? We are one of the most stable VPS provider you will ever seen around (see if there is any customer complaining about our VPS at all) and yet we have nodes only 70 GB, nodes with 100 GB, nodes with 300 GB, and so on. All running stabily, no downtime, no problem, no nothing.

    If it takes you super duper server node to have a stable/fast VPS, then perhaps there is something wrong with the way you define your VPS parameters. I have seen benchmark report where a small VPS on our P3T nodes with 2GB and RAID1 drive is even faster than other VPS reported on a Dual Xeon, 10 drives RAID5 SCSI drives, 12 GB memory node, faster in both the CPU processing power and the disk read/write thruput.

    I am happy you own super duper server node. But sorry, it seems like a waste of money in my opinion. 6 GB of extra memory for additional 3200 Euro is just waste ... I will create 2 additional servers with 6 GB of memory each for 3200 additional Euro and I can bet you anytime that the 3 server nodes will run more stable than your super duper server node.
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  23. #23
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    FHDave, I wasn't talking to you.

    Originally posted by EuroVPS/Igor
    Anyway, I'm off this thread. Once you build your first node and get the feel of it, you'll know what I'm talking about
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  24. #24
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    I have a virtuozzo machine, I am currently migrating users off it to another because its performance is poor, but i never actually pinpointed the cause yet.

    Basically, The machine has 10 SATA drives in a Raid50 configuration on a 3ware raid card, its dual xeon 3.2ghz 6gb ram, and it has maybe 35 VE's, and it runs like S***.

    There does not seem to be any substantial amount of disk access I can see, vzstat shows nothing out of the ordinary, any other suggestions on diagnosing really poor performance?

    Also, the machine has these "pauses" where like everything haults for 5 seconds or so, horrible, I am embarrased by it.
    Kevin

  25. #25
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    The reason it pauses, is the drives are NOT designed for this type of work.

    I am glad you were honest and shared this with the rest of the class. Now boys and girls, this is why it's GOOD to use SCSI.

    Hats off to Kevin BTW.

    Regards,
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  26. #26
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    Yeah, I am going to stick to a 14 drive RAID10 with 15kRPM U320 drives . I always use ibm u320 scsi drives in RAID 1 or 10 except for this time, and I paid the price.

    Although I was never fully decided it was disk access because the drives are not constantly "chugging"
    Kevin

  27. #27
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    The controller bucks up, that is the problem. SATA technology should stay in desktop home computers, not in workstations, nor in servers. Definitely not in Virtuozzo servers, which are really 50-60 servers combined in one. You NEED SCSI.

    Kevin, look at IBM's EXP300, it's the best way to jam pack 14 drives into 3U w/great cooling and redundant power, plus with the split backplane you can run 7 & 7 to 2 different servers!

    I love ours, we also use some old Storageworks 4314R's (limited to U160 but still fine for VZ)

    Glad to see you posting
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  28. #28
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    7 drives to one server, what raid level would you do with that, raid 10 + hot spare? or raid 5?
    Kevin

  29. #29
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    Depends how many VE's you're going to run, just 30, run a RAID 5, more than 30, run a RAID 10. Feels bad to have 50% overhead on the drive but the access patterns are insane when you put more than 30 VE's on a machine.

    I recently went through the trouble to bring down a perfectly good maching, migrate everyone off of it, reconfig the RAID to 10, and reload it again. Now loads are down -25%, and we've got more VE's on the same physical server w/much better performance.

    Thing is, don't do this on a PERC 3 card, you'll be shooting yourself in the foot. I understand you guys run an IBM shop, that's good, get a ServeRAID 5 or 6, and pack on 256MB Cache, write back -on (MUST), and ensure you've got a batt. backup on it.

    That will FLY --

    Why aren't you using those X360's for VZ BTW?
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  30. #30
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    we have some quad xeon MP machines 360 255 , but virtuozzo has been giving me the run around on quad processor pricing.
    Kevin

  31. #31
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    Man, you don't know what you're missing on the Quad MP's, we run Quad 900/2MB's (x350's) with 16GB RAM that positively rip it up, we're talking unixbench's of 70+ with plenty of VE's on the box. This is w/20 drives of course. 6 on the deck and 14 out back in the EXP

    It's worth the extra cash to run a Quad, I have noticed that it's much harder for the machine to "load up", we have plenty of Duals and even singles, but we keep our higher plans on the Quads.

    Where SWSoft really kills us is on the 8 way pricing. We have DL760's with 8 Xeon MP 2.0's that we use for CPANEL of all things just because SWSoft wants to rail us on 8cpu pricing.

    Oh well. Life goes on. SCSI Lives on. SATA doesn't Enjoy your new config
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  32. #32
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    8way thats intense!

    I still don't understand how Virtuozzo can price it like this, the kernel is opensource, they are just patching it, i'm not a licensing wizard, but it just seemed unusual how virtuozzo's pricing structure is.
    Kevin

  33. #33
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    Hey Another Question,

    Generally on shared hosting, we scale as required, i.e we add arrays as existing ones fill up, so we have /home /home2 /home3/ home4 etc.

    Is there some functionality like this for virtuozzo or is the /vz partition just how it is. I assume you could move and symbolic link some stuff in private (i assume), but this is super messy.
    Kevin

  34. #34
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    Sure, we make /vz2 /vz3's etc, it's not a bad idea if you've got it across different physical lun's, just make sure you format it the right way

    here is how to format a /vz partition:

    "mke2fs -i1024 -b1024 -j /dev/vz_device" for separate "/vz" partition.

    Also please remember to use "noatime" option in /etc/fstab for the partition mount point. It will greatly increase I/O performance. We have seen unbelievable difference in performance with noatime set in fstab.

    noatime removes the "last tim eaccessed" from each file as it's written or read from disk, so figure 50% of your writes are now gone -- it's an unneccessary flag that truly does nothing in a vz environment.

    If you have more question better to email me rather than talk in front of all planet the inner workings of vz.

    I would be happy to talk to you, you sound like a smart & very intuitive engineer.

    Regards
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