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  1. #1

    Thumbs down Sagonet Cluster and Load Balancing

    I'm not getting any sufficient response on our technical support so I am opening a topic here to vent my frustrations. Please give me some advice / feedback on to how should I handle the situation. I really feel bad on how it turns out... Sagonet broke my trust on them. It's already tainted with a lot of disappointments.

    On June 8, 2005 we were billed for 3 Atlas servers (cluster + load balancing included). These are some of my presales talk with Matthew McCormick:

    we'll setup the server for you to the point that you would receive it like a normal server, to just upload the content & go :-)

    as these are newer products, we expect to do more "hand holding" for clients until they're fully released with lots of documentation
    I was very happy as I chat with Matt because the package includes these services, and it sounds very convenient to me as we don't have to worry about the complexity of clustering systems, load balancers, firewalls and such... therefore I ordered it and received the clusters. It was prepaired and setup by Chris M.

    At first I tried to setup the DNS clustering in WHM. I had difficulty with it as it was given to me unconfigured, (which I thought should be taken care already initially, in reference of "hand holding") and so I issue several tickets concerning it. We wasted 5 days just to get this issue solved, including some issue related to firewall blocked ports, etc. It's already June 12 then.

    On June 13, we have discovered that there isn't even a software like rsync to mirror the servers and so, we were very upset. We didn't buy 3 servers just like that. We wanted it to be configured as 3 computers working as one. I checked this issue with Matt and he told me that our servers would be rectified for 100% in accordance to our discussions. We have to wait until June 26 to get some updates as Chris M. programed the synchronizing script. Then the script was released to us on July 2... only to figure out that we have to manually run that script to sync all three servers. Now, wasn't it supposed to be part of the clustering system? It looks that the clusters were given to us incomplete, and very little documentation was given to us until now. We are like crawling in the dark to get solutions because of incomplete setup and meagre documentation. Just to wait for more than 3 weeks alone is just too troublesome for our business! In addition the servers are up and down, up and down... Where's the 100% SLA? It seems that whenever there is one server down, the rest is down. Aren't clustered systems almost failure free? These clustered servers the opposite. They are very unreliable. Having all these problems, I don't believe that my issue was rectified at all.

    To give more perspective to this issue, put yourself in my position. I bought these Atlas servers for clustering and load balancing, and I only got 3 servers that took forever to fix. It's very frustrating that after giving Sagonet countless chance to rectify my issue, the more it is difficult to get support. Delays are always inevitable, which is a big let down on our critical mission.

    July 8, 2005 - we decided that it's better to refund our money if Sagonet cannot address our issue so that we can move on. This is a case of billing error as we didn't receive a complete server feature / package that we purchased. Moreover, even if we receive a rectified cluster and load balanced servers soon it's already a month late!

    Tell me if I'm being too soft, patient or what... if Sagonet don't get my servers fixed the way it should be delivered to me this afternoon (Friday), I am demanding a refund!
    Last edited by Veyz; 07-08-2005 at 12:38 PM.

  2. #2
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    I am of the stance that providers should deliver on what they promise. That being said, if it's a service is new to them, some glitches are expected.

    In the end, it boils down to them not meeting your expectations. irregardless if we think your expectations are too high or too low.

    Best of luck to you, and I imagine that Sago will do all they can to rectify this situation for you.

    Sam
    Sam Machiz / Director, Product Development / Ubersmith
    smachiz[at]ubersmith.com / [direct] 212-812-4194

  3. #3
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    Hello,

    I realize we are already e-mailing back and forth on this matter, but also felt the need to discuss this matter a bit further in detail. Initially, the solution proposed was one that we were confident in the environment to adequately fit those needs. However, two other solutions were proposed as being more adequate prior to purchase based on additional complexities of the setup. A static site would work perfectly in a 3 across cluster environment dynamic sites are a different story. I am working as quickly as possible to get to the bottom of things. I can only help when I know of issues ongoing, and the last communication we had was 6/24, so up until yesterday I was completely in the dark, and unaware of any lingering problems. I certainly do apologize for any inconvenience with things, and will do my absolute best to resolve things for you as quickly as possible.

    Thank you,
    Matthew McCormick
    Director of Customer Care
    www.caro.net
    mmccormick@carohosting.com

  4. #4
    The only reason why you didn't get much update was because I waited for about 2 weeks to get the script done. It's only June 13 that that we discovered the lacking of rsync script to sync the servers together in cluster.... then I waited for the synchronizing script until June 26 - two weeks.That time I am relying on Chris. Now, after 1 week of receiving the resync, I discovered it's underlying problems (it has to be ran manually so we have to use cron as the last resort).

    Tthe reason I'm frustrated is becase I trusted that the technical support is doing their best to rectify the issue. Non of these have rectified 100% of our agreement: "just upload the content & go" , "hand holding" and "lots of documentations" ... I see myself working on these servers as if we are guinea pigs. We do a lot of experimentation because the agreement was not met. So right now, with the infornation I gave you in my hands I'm hanging by the thread of hope that the service will be rectified, or else we will get our money back since the service offered is not working.

    I have high respect with you Matt...

    Best regards.

  5. #5
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    Marck,

    Again, I always do my best, but I cannot help when I have no idea things aren't working properly. Since this thread is basically mimicking our e-mails anyway, and my time is best spent now dealing with a situation I'm aware of, I won't be posting here any further until I have the time. I need to focus my time now on seeing what is going on with your situation, I just wish I had known earlier as to any problems. "Upload and go" is correct, which is what other clustered customers with a static site do, since they upload content at specific times, then data is copied over to all servers, and processed. Dynamic sites are different which was why I offered you another solution prior to deployment of the original specs to help things work as best they could. I will get back to you in a short while once I speak with everyone about things.

    Thank you,
    Matthew McCormick
    Director of Customer Care
    www.caro.net
    mmccormick@carohosting.com

  6. #6
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    I just sent you the information as to the reasons why things were appearing to improperly function, and provided you with a resolution, at our cost which can easily remedy things for you. Please reply as quickly as possible to our admin to allow this to get resolved for you right away.

    Thank you,
    Matthew McCormick
    Director of Customer Care
    www.caro.net
    mmccormick@carohosting.com

  7. #7
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    we'll setup the server for you to the point that you would receive it like a normal server, to just upload the content & go :-)
    That is very disappointing to see from one of WHT's more respectable hosts. You've since backed out of it with an "only if site is 100% static and never changes" fine print, but how many people need a dedicated server for that, let alone three of them?

    Cluster transparency is a hard -- doctoral thesis hard -- problem to solve. Even the most advanced Linux projects in that area (SSI Linux, Kerrighed, Mosix) have severe performance and reliability issues, especially with a server failure. Rsync is cute (great for backup), but it won't help for SQL, session data, forum uploads, or anything else that needs timely filesystem updates.
    Game Servers are the next hot market!
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  8. #8
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    Originally posted by hiryuu
    That is very disappointing to see from one of WHT's more respectable hosts. You've since backed out of it with an "only if site is 100% static and never changes" fine print, but how many people need a dedicated server for that, let alone three of them?

    Cluster transparency is a hard -- doctoral thesis hard -- problem to solve. Even the most advanced Linux projects in that area (SSI Linux, Kerrighed, Mosix) have severe performance and reliability issues, especially with a server failure. Rsync is cute (great for backup), but it won't help for SQL, session data, forum uploads, or anything else that needs timely filesystem updates.
    I believe you entirely missed what I said. Never did I state I would not honor what I promised him, and never did I add a clause of any such nature. Re-read what I wrote, and please don't put words into my mouth. I stated that his solution only works on a static site, simply because there are typically scheduled uploads of data, which when rsync is utilized causes apache to reload on that server to accept the changes. In this case, the site has more dynamic changes, which does not work properly. We have absorbed the cost of providing much higher-end equipment to the customer, free of charge, so that the solution promised, is the one that he will receive. I have NEVER used a loophole to get out of something, or try and point out fine print to clients. I stand by my words, always have, and always will.

    Thank you,
    Matthew McCormick
    Director of Customer Care
    www.caro.net
    mmccormick@carohosting.com

  9. #9
    Matt,

    I already replied. To your email.

    If I only knew that the solution is only reliable on static site, we should have purchased a different setup, but I was not informed either and so this problem arised.

    Update me on how thing's going on for immediate action.

    Thank you.

  10. #10
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    Originally posted by Veyz
    Matt,

    I already replied. To your email.

    If I only knew that the solution is only reliable on static site, we should have purchased a different setup, but I was not informed either and so this problem arised.

    Update me on how thing's going on for immediate action.

    Thank you.
    Chris already has your e-mail and will be working on this as his top priority. We certainly don't wish for any customers to experience difficulties with any of our services, and will always do our best, as I've promised you time and time again. I just need to know when things arise, so that we can deal with them more rapidly. You'll have the fix today, and we'll be all set.

    Thanks,
    Matthew McCormick
    Director of Customer Care
    www.caro.net
    mmccormick@carohosting.com

  11. #11
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    Personally speaking you should have got NAS with Interworx as well instead of cpanel
    Interworx latest version has all the stuff
    Server4Sale
    Dirt CHEAP Servers coming soon

  12. #12
    In this case, the site has more dynamic changes, which does not work properly. We have absorbed the cost of providing much higher-end equipment to the customer, free of charge, so that the solution promised, is the one that he will receive. I have NEVER used a loophole to get out of something, or try and point out fine print to clients. I stand by my words, always have, and always will.
    Very impressive example of customer service. Looks like people are assuming that the client & sagonet had a mutual understanding of what this cluster should be able to do - however, in actuality, it appears as though Sagonet had an initial understanding which was different from the clients (which often happens, even in ideal communication settings)


    Quite impressed with Matthews methodology of dealing with this sort of situation - it is really tough to publicly accept ownership of a situation, handle it with class and absorb the costs associated with rectifying the situation - quite the refreshing change from the typical WHT scenarios.
    www.cartika.com
    www.clusterlogics.com - You simply cannot run a hosting company without this software. Backups, Disaster Recovery, Big Data, Virtualization. 20 years of building software that solves your problems

  13. #13
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    I am also pleased to see them working to find a workable solution. My issue was strictly with the "upload the content & go" description (which is hearsay, anyway). That raises the client's expectation of transparency to an unattainable level, and we're seeing the aftermath of that reality.

    From what I've gathered in this exchange, the servers are synchronized with a regularly scheduled rsync run. Even with static files, that will cause inconsistency near an update. I'm not sure what you have for his dynamic site, but I suspect it, too, has limitations that leave it short of "upload and go."
    Game Servers are the next hot market!
    Slim margins, heavy support, fickle customers, and moronic suppliers!
    Start your own today!

  14. #14
    Right now we have a problem connecting the cluster in mysql ... and it seems that we can't access the sql server at the moment. We can't confirm with any of the technical support if the right changes were made...

    It's really difficult to get support now that the main admin working with this server is not available (probably gone home). They would just forward it to him, and so I have to wait until morning or even afternoon! I don't know why they are very much dependent on one person (as it seems), and now that the guy is not available, we are stuck again ... waiting for the technical support. Have I mentioned that our schedule were screwed simply because of these troublesome cluster? I guess we are quite tolerant, but not for too long anymore....

    We've given Sagonet yet another chance and everything does not seem to fit in right.... I don't know if they really did a test on these servers hands on, or they just assumed it was working because the settings were seemingly correct. Tell me if I'm wrong but given enough chances, we are still stuck.

    I think it's time for us to finally demand a refund, as we are wasting precious time. Time is gold for us, and enough damage was made due to repeatitive delays already. We'll just suffer more damages if we stay.

  15. #15
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    Maybe I missed it but I don't see any clustering or balancing functions/features with Interworx.
    SiteSouth
    Atlanta, GA and Las Vegas, NV. Colocation

  16. #16
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    Veyz,

    I think its time for you to take a deep breath and realize that your provider is doing what they can to rectify this situation. This is not a simple setup, I am not even clear why you think you need a clustered solution in the first place but even as a competitor we can say honestly that Sago doesn't have a reputation of not delivering so you really should give them more one day to resolve this situation. It is not like turning on a single server.

    Give them reasonable time (2-3 days) not 24 hours to resolve now that you have Matt looking at it.
    CloudNexus Technology Services
    Managed Services

  17. #17
    Yes, we have extended that period and from we did our best to understand the situation.

    Let me update everyone here that we are in the process of settling the issue already.

  18. #18
    I think I understand Veyz's frustration.

    On this forum we've hold numerous discussions on clustering, load-balancing, etc.
    IMHO and to my best knowledge none on this forum demonstrated any reasonable expertise to define the concept, less to offer it as a solution. Please, don't take me wrong. There are clustering, load-balancing, %99.999 uptime solutions, but not based on "rsync" - please, get serious.

    So, if you bought non-existed and technically ridiculous solution you must take a responsibility for this action.

    Good luck,
    Peter Kinev.
    Open Solution, Inc
    http://opensolution-us.com

  19. #19
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    I have never once seen anyone sucessfully deploy a fully redundant cpanel cluster. There are just way too many things to worry about. DNS, site files, mysql etc. Clustering 1 website across many server is not difficult but clustering 100 shared webhosting customers is a nightmare.

    The technology isn't quite there yet to say "3 servers should act as one with no downtime". In this case the client's expectations should've been more realistic and Sago should have initially explained what issues there might be in the process as clustering is not at all a simple plug and play technology.
    ServerMatingProject.com
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  20. #20
    The Voice,

    In difference with you, I did. But, to use the "rsync" as a mechanism for so called "clustering solution" in this case is a ludicrous idea.

    Peter Kinev.
    Open Solution, Inc
    http://opensolution-us.com

  21. #21
    I meant not a "cpanel" of course, when I said "I did".

    Peter.
    Open Solution, Inc
    http://opensolution-us.com

  22. #22
    but clustering 100 shared webhosting customers is a nightmare
    I meant not a "cpanel" of course
    This of course is possible - however, we have only accomplished this with hsphere & netapp - whether or not this is possible with cpanel - I am not certain, nor have we tried...

    http://www.psoft.net/HSdocumentation...iguration.html

    The technology isn't quite there yet to say "3 servers should act as one with no downtime".
    Of course a load balanced, clustered environment is only as reliable as connections at the DC and the connections between the visitors and the DC
    www.cartika.com
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  23. #23
    No offense, but the previous posting illustrates my early point quite well.

    "IMHO and to my best knowledge none on this forum demonstrated any reasonable expertise to define the concept, less to offer it as a solution."

    Peter Kinev
    Open Solution, Inc
    http://opensolution-us.com

  24. #24
    Originally posted by pnorilsk
    No offense, but the previous posting illustrates my early point quite well.

    "IMHO and to my best knowledge none on this forum demonstrated any reasonable expertise to define the concept, less to offer it as a solution."

    Peter Kinev
    LOL - the concept isnt overly difficult and the solution has been implemented and is repeatable - what was expressed was an admission of ignorance as to whether this is attainable in a cpanel environment
    www.cartika.com
    www.clusterlogics.com - You simply cannot run a hosting company without this software. Backups, Disaster Recovery, Big Data, Virtualization. 20 years of building software that solves your problems

  25. #25
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    Originally posted by CartikaHosting
    LOL - the concept isnt overly difficult and the solution has been implemented and is repeatable - what was expressed was an admission of ignorance as to whether this is attainable in a cpanel environment
    It isn't. Not without significant monetary and time investments.
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