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  1. #1

    Chinese dragon awakens

    Chinese dragon awakens

    "China is building its military forces faster than U.S. intelligence and military analysts expected, prompting fears that Beijing will attack Taiwan in the next two years, according to Pentagon officials."

    The Chinese dragon is getting ready for something very big, but the people in Asia and in the Pacifiic better awaken before it is too late.

    But, it won't be just an Asian-Pacific problem. The rest of the world better wake up too.

  2. #2
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    From the looks of it China,will be the cause of the next world war,they even have stated the USA is there main enemy.
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  3. #3
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    Of course... First they cut off the chinesses from the rest of world...
    Now they are building enough weapon just to fight the USA because they know we defend other countries. Of course it won't be Bush's problem because by then it will be the next president's problem. Had Bush not send us to war with Iraq, we would have more allies.

  4. #4
    Originally posted by LazyD
    From the looks of it China,will be the cause of the next world war,they even have stated the USA is there main enemy.
    And, we are helping them by building their economy which builds up their military. And, we have given them most of the technology that they will use against us, including missile and computer technology..

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    And, we are helping them by building their economy which builds up their military. And, we have given them most of the technology that they will use against us, including missile and computer technology..
    Oh yea...

    And last I recalled, America benefits just as much with their trade partnerships with China (if not, just cut china off, see if you can do without the cheap labour )

    Also, last I recalled, the Chinese invented the compass, without which America will still be an island inhabited by red indians...
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  6. #6
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    Re: Chinese dragon awakens

    Originally posted by tekky60
    Chinese dragon awakens

    "China is building its military forces faster than U.S. intelligence and military analysts expected, prompting fears that Beijing will attack Taiwan in the next two years, according to Pentagon officials."

    The Chinese dragon is getting ready for something very big, but the people in Asia and in the Pacifiic better awaken before it is too late.

    But, it won't be just an Asian-Pacific problem. The rest of the world better wake up too.
    This is coming from the Washington Times -- not surprising.

    What evidence do they have to support their case? When they simply come right out and assert that "China is building up its military", as if it was common knowledge, one has to wonder what their motives are and from where they're getting this stuff.

  7. #7
    Originally posted by freak
    Oh yea...

    And last I recalled, America benefits just as much with their trade partnerships with China (if not, just cut china off, see if you can do without the cheap labour )

    Also, last I recalled, the Chinese invented the compass, without which America will still be an island inhabited by red indians...
    Who the heck is arguing about trade benefits? No doubt that economic trade is beneficial to all concerned. That is not the question presented by the article, if you bothered to read it.

    And, what does long time ago history concerning the compass or other inventions have to do with modern concerns? Nobody is arguing that either!

  8. #8
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    Who the heck is arguing about trade benefits? No doubt that economic trade is beneficial to all concerned. That is not the question presented by the article, if you bothered to read it.

    And, what does long time ago history concerning the compass or other inventions have to do with modern concerns? Nobody is arguing that either!

    And, we are helping them by building their economy which builds up their military. And, we have given them most of the technology that they will use against us, including missile and computer technology..
    You were
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    Let's just hope the US don't turn this into another cold war with their propaganda.

  10. #10
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    Seems they are trying to create a one way internet within their country. We can see them, but they cant see us. What happens if someone in china types in http://www.cnn.com ? Do they see the real site? Or do they see one that China puts there in it's place? This may not happen now, but I expect it will soon. A cnn.com that talks of how evil the U.S. is, and their invasion plans of China and the rest of the world.

    Why try to force people to do what you want them to when you can show them a lie and make the population rally behind your cause? When you control the internet entry point to your country, you can control what your people see at popular places like CNN/BBC, etc.

    So what happens when the China military is all built up, and China does this to their internet? You end up with a billion Chinese who are ready to destroy the United States at all costs, never knowing it's all a lie.

    Would you put it passed the China Government to do something like this? After all, Saudi Arabia, while not filled with lies, does replace pages with those of their own, even if it's only a warning that the pages are not allowed viewing within the SA.

  11. #11
    Originally posted by freak
    You were
    Congratulations on being able to quote my posts.

    But, you still didn't make any sense!

  12. #12
    Originally posted by -T{H}R-
    Let's just hope the US don't turn this into another cold war with their propaganda.
    The cold war with the Soviet Union ended in the early 90s. A new cold war with Russia started about 5 years ago.

    The cold war with China, although not spoken about too loudly, never went away. They've been our enemies ever since the communists took over.

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    Originally posted by indiaberry
    Had Bush not send us to war with Iraq, we would have more allies.
    Yeah, if only Kerry would have been elected the French would be volunteering to throw themselves in front of the Chinese missiles for us.

  14. #14
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    Congratulations on being able to quote my posts.

    But, you still didn't make any sense!
    You were talking about how trade with the China gave them money to use to develop their military to against the US, I responded by saying that the US benefited too from the trade.

    You said that the US gave the Chinese technologies that they invented, and I responded by saying if the Chinese didn't spread the use of their technology, there wouldn't even be an America.
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    Originally posted by freak
    You were talking about how trade with the China gave them money to use to develop their military to against the US, I responded by saying that the US benefited too from the trade.

    You said that the US gave the Chinese technologies that they invented, and I responded by saying if the Chinese didn't spread the use of their technology, there wouldn't even be an America.
    Don't worry about "tekky60"; he doesn't seem to understand (or acknowledge) the correlations between historical and contemporary events.

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    Originally posted by tekky60
    Congratulations on being able to quote my posts.

    But, you still didn't make any sense!
    I'm sorry to tell you but his/her post made complete sense.

  17. #17
    It is not too difficult to understand why the Chinese are arming themselves well. To take on the US? In self defence, maybe. If one were to look at history in general, American military power projection had been world wide while Chinese power are centered around their own boundaries. Which one of them could make a potential aggressor should be obvious to the unbiased observer.

    One would think that the American leadership and its machinery are well equipped enough to understand the intentions of the Chinese. Would they not expect the Chinese to remember how they were torn apart and humiliated by western powers not so long ago, and in more recent times, American (not perceived but real) encirclement of its territory through security treaties with its Asian neighbours would be reason enough for the Chinese to consider avoiding a repeat of history?

    So, why all this hype about the Chinese military build-up? SniperDevil was spot on with the observation that there were underlying motives. However, it would still surprise many to know that the motive goes beyond mere removal of 'axis of evil' or some 'obnoxious' characters whom Washington loathed. It would not be inconceivable to see this as nothing more than the greed for power. Washington has savoured the position of being the sole superpower for some years now since the collapse of the Soviet Union, and it certainly does not relish the prospect of being about to lose that status.
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  18. #18
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    Originally posted by qoheleth
    It is not too difficult to understand why the Chinese are arming themselves well. To take on the US? In self defence, maybe. If one were to look at history in general, American military power projection had been world wide while Chinese power are centered around their own boundaries. Which one of them could make a potential aggressor should be obvious to the unbiased observer.

    One would think that the American leadership and its machinery are well equipped enough to understand the intentions of the Chinese. Would they not expect the Chinese to remember how they were torn apart and humiliated by western powers not so long ago, and in more recent times, American (not perceived but real) encirclement of its territory through security treaties with its Asian neighbours would be reason enough for the Chinese to consider avoiding a repeat of history?

    So, why all this hype about the Chinese military build-up? SniperDevil was spot on with the observation that there were underlying motives. However, it would still surprise many to know that the motive goes beyond mere removal of 'axis of evil' or some 'obnoxious' characters whom Washington loathed. It would not be inconceivable to see this as nothing more than the greed for power. Washington has savoured the position of being the sole superpower for some years now since the collapse of the Soviet Union, and it certainly does not relish the prospect of being about to lose that status.
    Very good and unbiased post.

    Yes, it is known China is building it's military prowness. No debate.

    After years of been humilated under inept emperors who likes to look inward, Chairman Mao said it aptly, "Power comes from the barrel of a gun". History has taught the Chinese well.

    China, as a growing economy, will, in all probability, not ever use force. Military might is needed as an ace card in political negotiations. It is politics.

    The only contentious issue is whose side you are. If you are American, Japanese, Taiwanese, you did be worried, you will want to believe in the worst case scenario. And if you are neutral, you will welcome a biploar world.

    If Iraq had a decent military, not crippled by decades long sanctions, I am sure the US administration would have given diplomacy more chances.

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    Not sure on "unbiased" there.

    So the Chinese are increasing their army?
    Yes, along with the rest of the world.

    Is it forming at an alarming rate?
    Of course. They have a few billion known citizens.

    Are they a threat?
    Possibly. There are many motives and historical evidence that points to their potential hostility towards certain countries.

    Are they Communist?
    Yes. Apparantly.

    Are they Fascist?
    Time will tell.

    Should we all be worried?
    I would hope not.

    Should we all be prepared, should the worst happen?
    Of course. Preparation is the strongest defense anyone can muster.

    Should the U.S.A. feel uneasy about this?
    Yes. Historically the United States has openly opposed communism and fascism (mainly since communism tends to corrupt into fascism).
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  20. #20
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    Originally posted by Tulip-Dennis
    Is it forming at an alarming rate?
    Of course. They have a few billion known citizens.
    The fact that China has such a large population is not reason enough to extrapolate that, therefore, their military is expanding at an "alarming" rate.

    Originally posted by Tulip-Dennis
    Are they Communist?
    Yes. Apparantly.

    Are they Fascist?
    Time will tell.
    By definition, if a country is communist, they aren't fascist. However, communism is so impractical, and therefore impossible, that often "communist" policies seem extremely fascist. In many ways, Stalin was just as fascist as he was communist; that is to say, he wasn't communist, by definition. Then again, no country in history has been.

    Originally posted by Tulip-Dennis
    Should we all be worried?
    I would hope not.

    Should we all be prepared, should the worst happen?
    Of course. Preparation is the strongest defense anyone can muster.
    In cases of national defense and in mobilization of the military, "being prepared" = "being worried". How can you be prepared for such a drastic thing, which will undoubtedly cost many lives on both sides, yet still not worry? It is impossible, and when mobilization of the military occurs as would be expected of national "preparation" for such a thing, it gives everyone all the more reason to worry.

    Originally posted by Tulip-Dennis
    Should the U.S.A. feel uneasy about this?
    Yes. Historically the United States has openly opposed communism and fascism (mainly since communism tends to corrupt into fascism).
    You're right that an initial policy of "communism" tends to fade into fascism, but I'm dubious as to whether any given country was originally communist, anyhow.

  21. #21
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    Originally posted by SniperDevil
    The fact that China has such a large population is not reason enough to extrapolate that, therefore, their military is expanding at an "alarming" rate.
    Very true. However, they have a higher ability to acquire military personell from a citizenship of such massive quantities.

    Originally posted by SniperDevil
    By definition, if a country is communist, they aren't fascist. However, communism is so impractical, and therefore impossible, that often "communist" policies seem extremely fascist. In many ways, Stalin was just as fascist as he was communist; that is to say, he wasn't communist, by definition. Then again, no country in history has been.
    You're thinking Socialism. Socialism is the degraded form of Communism. Communism, as of itself, is not a bad idea at all. However, it only works on paper. The contemporary idea of communism is closer to Socialism, and Socialism normally quickly degrades into utter Fascism and self-destruction.

    Originally posted by SniperDevil
    In cases of national defense and in mobilization of the military, "being prepared" = "being worried". How can you be prepared for such a drastic thing, which will undoubtedly cost many lives on both sides, yet still not worry? It is impossible, and when mobilization of the military occurs as would be expected of national "preparation" for such a thing, it gives everyone all the more reason to worry.
    Preparation, as in prudent planning. It's basic human instinct to worry what we are planning for. There are offense and defense plans in case of a Canadian invasion, yet do we worry about it?
    It's very normal to see semi-communist China as a "red" threat. Yet should we appease them in any manner possible and be worried about their next course of action? NO!. If worry means suspicion leading to prudent planning, then yes. But if worry means wringing your hands in fear, then no.

    Originally posted by SniperDevil
    You're right that an initial policy of "communism" tends to fade into fascism, but I'm dubious as to whether any given country was originally communist, anyhow.
    Communism only works on paper, due to the fallability of human beings in general. So Communism quickly turns to Socialism, which then tends to fade into Fascism.
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  22. #22
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    Originally posted by Tulip-Dennis
    Very true. However, they have a higher ability to acquire military personell from a citizenship of such massive quantities.
    Sure, but then again, our military could be much bigger than it currently is -- if there were a draft.

    Originally posted by Tulip-Dennis
    You're thinking Socialism. Socialism is the degraded form of Communism. Communism, as of itself, is not a bad idea at all. However, it only works on paper. The contemporary idea of communism is closer to Socialism, and Socialism normally quickly degrades into utter Fascism and self-destruction.
    No, I'm not thinking socialism, and I very well know what socialism is. I don't know where you got that I was thinking socialism, because I was quite obviously (at least IMO) talking about radical communism.

    If the contemporary idea of communism is similar to socialism, then, as I said, communism is obviously not possible, because it is defined as:

    A system of government in which the state plans and controls the economy and a single, often authoritarian party holds power, claiming to make progress toward a higher social order in which all goods are equally shared by the people.
    Thus, politically speaking, communism already has several elements of a fascist government, which is defined as:

    A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.
    Although the means of control differ between the two doctrines, the ideas of each aspect, individually, of government are often very much the same.

    Originally posted by Tulip-Dennis
    Preparation, as in prudent planning. It's basic human instinct to worry what we are planning for. There are offense and defense plans in case of a Canadian invasion, yet do we worry about it?
    I think written plans are different from actual preparation for an attack, but I suppose we're just arguing semantics.

    [QUOTE]Originally posted by Tulip-Dennis
    [B]It's very normal to see semi-communist China as a "red" threat. Yet should we appease them in any manner possible and be worried about their next course of action? NO!. If worry means suspicion leading to prudent planning, then yes. But if worry means wringing your hands in fear, then no.

    I don't think there's any need to appease China. They know our capabilities and we know theirs, and I don't think there's all that much doubt on either side as to which would win, in the scheme of things.

    If we went to war, I highly doubt it would be conventional "battles" by troops on opposing sides. It would probably be more of striking with big bombs and using chemical and/or biological weapons to destroy the enemy. In this case, I think we both know who would win.

    Besides, I still see absolutely no evidence to support the suggestion that we're going to war with China anytime soon.

    Originally posted by Tulip-Dennis
    Communism only works on paper, due to the fallability of human beings in general. So Communism quickly turns to Socialism, which then tends to fade into Fascism.
    It's true that Communism only works on paper, but I don't think its failure can be mainly attributed to the fallibility of humans, but to the voracious desire for power and wealth that consumes most of us.

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    Originally posted by SniperDevil
    It's true that Communism only works on paper, but I don't think its failure can be mainly attributed to the fallibility of humans, but to the voracious desire for power and wealth that consumes most of us.
    Exactly. As human beings we tend to have an unquenchable lust for power, money, and pleasure. That, in it's entirety, is one of the leading downfalls of most governmental structures. That's why I like checks and balances. People keeping greed under control.

    You are correct in your statement that we are probably just arguing semantics.


    I do, in fact, understand the difference in Fascism and Communism. The main similarity they posess is that they are commonly an authoritarian government. However, Communism's orginal intent was for it to NOT be an authoritarian government.

    When it becomes such, it has started it's fall into Fascism.

    As they say, history is written by the victors. In the case of communism, it's contemporary definition was created by those who were opposed to Communism.

    In this case, Communism shares a common misinterpretation that many religions tend to face. Communism was not meant anywhere near what it became. What it became was not communism. This holds true for several religions. Religions often view eachother in skepticism, thus, their view is distorted and more often than not, their ideas of eachother are spread among the general populous, and the religion either becomes, or is generally viewed as what it is not.




    Contemporary dictionaries are incredible in their lack of true definition. The Microsoft dictionary treats Communism and Socialism as completely synonymous.
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    Well, i think the supposed threat is unreal.. China may seem very powerful, but here are some current facts:

    1) China has the least modernized army in the world.. Would take decades before they are close to western standards
    2) China has a weak navy, they'd have problems in power projection if they were to enter in a war with the US anytime soon
    3) China is heavily dependent on military imports... they have little technology of their own to build fighters, submarines or war ships.. Russia, France, etc. are major military suppliers to China.. It would be a very long time before CHina could achieve any sort of self reliance in military equipment...

    Yes, China has stockpiled alot of arms, fighters and military equipment.. But it couldn't sustain a war with the US or western powers at least for now.. Any war fought in the times of today would be heavily dependent on power projection (i.e. navy) and your airforce... as well as satellite and air reconnaissance.. In a conventional war, China would be at a huge advantage with its army... But in the wars that are likely to be fought this century, the army isn't going to be as effective as it was during WWI or WWII... unless you have the ability to project your army on foreign lands..

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    Originally posted by freak
    if the Chinese didn't spread the use of their technology, there wouldn't even be an America.
    Lol, nobody would've bumped into it by accident by now, eh? Oh, wait thats what Columbus did...



    Seriously, though, China has a great role in the world economy. I hope they don't throw it away by attacking their neighbors...

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    Same with the Vikings. And I'm pretty sure they didn't come bearing compasses.
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  27. #27
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    Dennis, I didn't realize I had messed up the "[.QUOTE.]" thing until just now, so I hope it wasn't too confusing for you.

    Originally posted by Tulip-Dennis
    Exactly. As human beings we tend to have an unquenchable lust for power, money, and pleasure. That, in it's entirety, is one of the leading downfalls of most governmental structures. That's why I like checks and balances. People keeping greed under control.
    Well said. Checks and balances are really the only way to ensure the least amount of corruption in a government and its society. There's still going to be corruption; that's a given in any human operation. However, it can be reduced to a minimum with the "right" policies in place. I believe that the system of checks and balances in a constitution-based federal republic, such as we have right now, is the most effective, "right" way to do this.

    Originally posted by Tulip-Dennis
    I do, in fact, understand the difference in Fascism and Communism. The main similarity they posess is that they are commonly an authoritarian government. However, Communism's orginal intent was for it to NOT be an authoritarian government.

    When it becomes such, it has started it's fall into Fascism.
    That's what's ironic about communism. While it was intended to be a nation of "the people", it never -- absolutely never -- remains that way. The nationalization and collective ownership of material possessions defies man's priorities and its purpose, as far as I'm concerned, so, consequently, any attempts to obstruct these are futile. Of course, I'm more realistic than idealistic (at least realistic, according to me); if they wish, people can choose to live in a dream wherein communism works. The thing is, if people realized just why socialism and communism just don't work (aside from in an intellectual sense), I can't see why they'd support it.

    Originally posted by Tulip-Dennis
    As they say, history is written by the victors. In the case of communism, it's contemporary definition was created by those who were opposed to Communism.
    It's true that history is written by the victors -- or at least the history that most of us choose to follow and that is taught in schools. However, for every piece of history that the victor writes, another infinite amount of possible variations or even completely different stories exist therein.

    Communism is a philosophical doctrine, and it, in variations, has probably been around since the start of human civilization. However, the word communism seems to refer mostly to Marxism and Leninism, the first communist ideas intellectually laid out, and Lenin was the first to actually put Marxist ideas to practical use in the October Revolution of 1917.

    Originally posted by Tulip-Dennis
    In this case, Communism shares a common misinterpretation that many religions tend to face. Communism was not meant anywhere near what it became. What it became was not communism. This holds true for several religions. Religions often view eachother in skepticism, thus, their view is distorted and more often than not, their ideas of eachother are spread among the general populous, and the religion either becomes, or is generally viewed as what it is not.
    Karl Marx claimed that there are four stages to the economic development of a nation: slavery, feudalism, capitalism, and communism. I suppose he had somewhat reasonable basis and it was convenient to use the United States to support his case, as we had had slavery and a sort of form of "feudalism" (the word and its many definitions and usages are very controversial) and now capitalism. By his philosophical conjecture, we should have a revolution of the proletariat sometime in the future. How soon? He was probably intentionally careful not to specify any length of time, but rather said "eventually".

    Originally posted by Tulip-Dennis
    Contemporary dictionaries are incredible in their lack of true definition. The Microsoft dictionary treats Communism and Socialism as completely synonymous.
    That's why I don't use anything Microsoft.

    No, but really, communism is a branch of socialism, and sometimes their differences are hard to distinguish; there are many different types of communism, itself, some more similar than others to the general idea of "socialism."
    Last edited by SniperDevil; 06-27-2005 at 02:57 PM.

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    Well put.

    I think our argument of the semantic nature proved very educational.

    Pleasure bantering with ya.
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