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06-24-2005, 09:20 PM #1Junior Guru Wannabe
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Quad Xeon Servers ( AKA Dual Xeons with Hyperthreading )
I'm creating this thread because my "effective wht advertising" <<Snipped>> post turned into a "quad xeon" discussion. In an effort to keep things more on topic I'm attempting to move the cpu discussion here.
To sum things up, in my other post I asked for some feedback on my WHT ad and my website. By doing so, it was quickly pointed out by several people that the "quad xeon" i was offering was more than likely a dual hypertreading system with virtual processors. After some discussion with my host, this does appear to the case.
When confronted on the issue my host informed me:
"We use 2 xeon processors with hyperthreading on all our reseller boxes. The hyperthreading makes the system run as though there were 4 cpus. "
After I informed my host how upset I was that I now had to update my website and ads because I beleive false advertising to be wrong I was told:
"Not a problem, however, it is widely known in the industry as "quad-xeon" becuase of the hyperthreading."
I highly doubt dual ht xeons are known as quad xeons within the industry. Since this is a site for industry members, please educate me on your thoughts on that comment.
The reason I was under the impression that my server actually has four processors is because I was actually told so. The following was taken from my host's site:
"Your reseller account will be placed on a server with the following minimum specifications: QUAD (4 Processor) XEON @ 2.4GHz"
What that says to me is the server will have 4 actual processors running @ 2.4 Ghz. Does anyone read that otherwise?
Please provide me with some links to some technical information on how dual ht xeons perform, and how actual quad xeons perform if anyone has the information. This is the kind of information I am looking for:
Originally posted by RambOrc
http://www.2cpu.com/articles/41_4.html
Linux 2.6 and Hyper-Threading - Static HTML and MySQL
"Enabling HT on this machine results in a 29% increase in requests per second."Last edited by anon-e-mouse; 06-25-2005 at 08:24 PM.
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06-24-2005, 10:32 PM #2Backup Guru
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Your host is quite misinformed. Dual xeons with hyperthreading does not "make the system run as though there were 4 cpus." Hyperthreading allows you to get a little more efficiency out of a processor (when running applications that benefit from it) by having one thread run while another thread is waiting for information. The issue here is that only one thread is really running at any one time... so in a good case, you might get an extra 20% of so performance boost from having hyperthreading enabled. On the flip side of this, hyperthreading can actually DEGRADE performance in many situations due to the threads stepping on each other as far as causing cache flushes.
Also, I'm not aware of anyone in the industry that can call this quad xeons with a straight face... it is not "widely known in the industry". Dual xeons with hyperthread does not give you a quad xeon box, and a single xeon with hypterthreading does not give you a dual xeon box.
As far as the new server you are being moved to, you better ask if those are indeed 4 physical processors. Quad xeon servers are rather rare in the hosting industry, because they have a poor price/performance ratio when compared to a dual processor box. Due to the shared memory bus architecture of Intel SMP, you usually don't get much extra performance out of a quad Xeon server when compared to a dual Xeon server.Scott Burns, President
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06-24-2005, 10:51 PM #3Web Hosting Master
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I can remember when we first started using dual xeons with HT enabled. I had a sysadmin then who thought the HT was inhibiting server performance, and we disabled it. I can't remember all the details, but having HT enabled does not give you twice the proc performance etc.
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06-24-2005, 11:50 PM #4Web Hosting Master
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Originally posted by Aussie Bob
I can remember when we first started using dual xeons with HT enabled. I had a sysadmin then who thought the HT was inhibiting server performance, and we disabled it. I can't remember all the details, but having HT enabled does not give you twice the proc performance etc.
In most cases it is beneficial to have on webservers, you're running MySQL, Apache, the OS, etc. etc.
As for the origional post, if I read Quad Xeon, I would think 4 *physical* processors. If I read Dual Xeons with Hyperthreading, I would think 4 *virtual* processors.Ankit Gupta - Cernax Hosting
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06-24-2005, 11:55 PM #5Retired Moderator
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As mentioned above the benefit from hyperthreading is really minimal. The best benchmarks I've seen on it show about a 30-40% gain, but many show much less than that. Certain applications can suffer from it even.
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06-25-2005, 12:06 AM #6Automation Specialist
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If hyperthreading was so good, they wouldn't have created the dual core chips
As justadollarhostin said, the reports say about 30% gain from what I've seen.
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06-25-2005, 02:43 AM #7Junior Guru Wannabe
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email to my host:
Rick,
Thanks again for your quick replies, but can you please back up your "widely known in the industry" comment?
On your website, and ebay auctions, you state "Your premium reseller account will be placed on a server with the following minimum specifications: QUAD (4 Processor) XEON @ 2.4GHz..." This clearly states a 4 CPU system. The opinion of the other hosting companies I have spoken with, as well as my own, is that "Quad Xeon" refers to four physical processors, while Dual Xeon w/ HyperThreading refers to four virtual processors.
In an earlier email you stated "We use 2 xeon processors with hyperthreading on all our reseller boxes. The hyperthreading makes the system run as though there were 4 cpus." Is the implication here that one cpu with hyperthreading is equal in performance to two physical processors of equal speed without hyperthreading? If so, than I would seriously like to see your numbers. If not, I would ask why you would be so obviously misleading (monetary reasons set aside). Everything I have found, and everyone I have spoken to, points to a 30%-40% performance increase with hyperthreading enabled on a processor. In some circumstances hyperthreading has been found to cause performance decreases. If you have other information, I am very interested in seeing it.
The feedback I am receiving from the web hosting community is not "Quad Xeons = Dual Xeons w/ ht enabled, but rather "Quad Xeons = 4 Physical Xeon Processors". Furthermore, the consensus seems to be that one should not sell a dual xeon hyperthreaded system as being a quad system, and those that do should not do so with a straight face.
Please explain to me how the statement found on your website ( http://www.fatnetwork.net/ebay/why.htm ) and numerous ebay auctions is not false advertising.
I have been very satisfied with your service thus far, but I must make it known that I value ethics over server performance and customer support. At this point, you need to give me some really good reasons why I shouldn't pack up and move to another company (which is not something I would do on a whim), as well as why I shouldn't notify ebay that your not selling what you claim to be.
The reply I got stated that "Rich will get back to you at his earliest convenience." I don't even know who Rich is, I was trying to email Rick.
Later Rick actually replied with:
I'm terribly sorry that you are unsatisfied with this.
It is fact that if you check the "server status" in WHM, you will see the 4 processors, hense our marketing of the "quad processor" reseller account. If the cpu's were not hyperthreaded, then you would see only two processors. With regards to performance numbers, I'm sorry, we don't have any pre xeon 2.4 performance numbers (non HT chips) becuase this is the minimum configuration in the xeon box that we've ever ordered.
I suppose the question about processors being physical or virutual can be open to interpretation, however, so can many other features such as "unlimited" space and bandwidth, both of which you have purchased from us. Fact is, as long as I see 4 processors read by the server status in linux, I can sleep well at night knowing that I am not misleading anyone.
Lastly, it should be noted that at any point if someone asks us the question about the number of physical processors, we tell them, not that it comes up very often.
What does come up is the following:
1 - Response time
2 - Ability to deliver a stable product
3 - Ability to maintain pricing
4 - Ability to manage the servers
We have put all our efforts in to the above. If you are not happy with what we are providing, then please, don't let me stop you to find someone who will offer you something more satisfying. The fact is, I do offer everything that I say I do, and at the end of the day, I'm here to ensure the best possible hosting experience for all our clients, and that is what we value most.
I don't think that really answered any of my questions at all. Physical vs Virtual CPUs is open for intrepretation? The "unlimited" space and bandwidth are covered on the website and ebay ads, stating basically storage is limited to the drives on the server, but that they are easily upgraded when needed to account for the "unlimited" storage, and the bandwidth is not unlimited but unmetered. I am ok with this, because it was explained as such.
Apparantly I'm in the market for a new host again...J. Michael Katip • mike [at] BlueDotLabs [dot] com • www.BlueDotLabs.com
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06-25-2005, 03:21 AM #8Web Hosting Master
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CPanel will show you 4 logical CPUs, not 4 Physical CPUs. Your host is misleading you. Nothing much you can do, just move on.
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06-25-2005, 05:16 AM #9Web Hosting Master
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Yeah, he is most definitely misleading you and avoiding your questions. 2 Xeons running with HT most definitely are not the equivalent of 4 physical processors.
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06-25-2005, 06:13 AM #10Disabled
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Just look at http://www.fatnetwork.net/ebay/why.htm and it's crying "crook" all over the place... not only because of the outright lies concerning the technical part (he says 4 processor explicitly, talks about 9.6 GHz which is simply a lie, can't be interpreted any other way - BTW funny thing, they talk about a 10 RPM HDD, that's mighty slow ROFL), but also the whole way the page is built up, not only visually but also semantically.
I suggest you report this fraudster both to ebay and the BBB. BTW now that I've seen the company URL, I have some faint memories having encountered a targeted visitor scam a couple of years ago that was also something like fatnet or fatnetwork (don't remember exactly any more). I'm not saying they're the same, but it might be worth looking into.
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06-25-2005, 07:40 AM #11Web Hosting Master
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Originally posted by RefreshNet
If hyperthreading was so good, they wouldn't have created the dual core chips
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06-25-2005, 12:59 PM #12Disabled
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Also, the fact that everyone (AMD, IBM, Intel) develops multicore CPUs but only Intel released HT should also tell you something about the worth of either.
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06-25-2005, 02:59 PM #13Web Hosting Master
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Originally posted by RambOrc
Also, the fact that everyone (AMD, IBM, Intel) develops multicore CPUs but only Intel released HT should also tell you something about the worth of either.
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06-25-2005, 03:30 PM #14Disabled
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Originally posted by inogenius
AMD has Hyper Transport which is similiar to Hyper Threading.
Recommend you to read up on it:
http://www.amd.com/us-en/Corporate/V...5E4752,00.html
http://www.amd.com/us-en/Corporate/V...~75263,00.html
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06-25-2005, 05:19 PM #15Eternal Member
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Whoa.. they say 9.6GHz which is NOT CORRECT at all. You can't just add the processor clock speeds up and publish b.s. about it on your site.
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06-25-2005, 05:25 PM #16Backup Guru
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Originally posted by elix
Whoa.. they say 9.6GHz which is NOT CORRECT at all. You can't just add the processor clock speeds up and publish b.s. about it on your site.
Thanks,
I think it might be time to find a host that knows what it's talking about. The fact that they advertise on eBay also sets off a red flag.Scott Burns, President
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06-25-2005, 06:32 PM #17Web Hosting Master
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There are two possibilities here.
1) The guy's a flat out dope.
2) The guy is an unethical liar.
Either way, I wouldn't trust my business in his hands.
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06-25-2005, 08:52 PM #18Eternal Member
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I was just looking over this again and I believe they offer unlimited space & bandwidth.......
ack.
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06-25-2005, 10:20 PM #19Junior Guru Wannabe
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FatNetwork does offer "unlimited" storage and transfer, but they do actually explain that it really isn't unlimited, which made sense and seemed alright at the time, but that probably should have been my first sign to stay away. I am def going to do more research b4 moving on to another host though.
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06-28-2005, 11:51 PM #20New Member
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Fellow WHTers:
I normally don't post here, but, I think some explanation is needed from our part.
The "Quad - Xeon" claim that we make is based solely on the "server information" link in WHM. Anyone who asks us to explain this is told that it is 2 hyperthreaded xeon processors, and the OS/WHM sees this as 4 proessors (hense the "quad").
It is our position that as long as the "Server Information" link in WHM is displaying 4 CPU's (PROCESSOR1, PROCESSOR2, PROCESSOR3, PROCESSOR4), then we feel it is correct, becuase if it isn't, then WHM and the operating system are misleading everyone, and we're just cought up in the middle.
Though we respect the views of others in the hosting industry, these views are our own.
Fat Network has made a business of specializing in reseller hosting and managed services. We offer stable servers, a 2nd to none monitoring system, fantastic pricing, and friendly service personnel who resolves issues within an hour, any time, day or night.
Regards,
Rick Orford
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06-29-2005, 12:48 AM #21Junior Guru Wannabe
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Rick,
Terminating my account due to my questioning your questionable business practices is far from friendly. I did not come here to give you a bad name, just get the industries input on the subject. Something that you were unwilling to provide when asked to backup your claims.J. Michael Katip • mike [at] BlueDotLabs [dot] com • www.BlueDotLabs.com
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06-29-2005, 02:45 AM #22Web Hosting Master
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Ok Rick,
you've made your point. Although you know that the server has two physical processors, you are choosing to be ignorant about it and just say what WHM/cPanel thinks it has.
But can you explain how you arrived to the conclusion that the server runs at 9.6GHZ?
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06-29-2005, 02:50 AM #23Web Hosting Master
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I have to agree with E_man3. You can't possibly claim that 2 xeons with HT can have the equivalent of 9.6 GHz.
If you want to go by what cpanel says then by all means do so.
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06-29-2005, 03:00 AM #24New Member
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First, let me clear up the fact that we did not terminate Mr. Katip's account, rather, we have cancelled billing and gave him 15 days notice to find a new host as he has publically stated of his wishes to find a new host.
2nd, we come to the figure of "9.6GHz" by multiplying 2.4ghz x 4, its as simple as that.
-Rick
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06-29-2005, 03:04 AM #25Web Hosting Master
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Originally posted by FatNetwork
2nd, we come to the figure of "9.6GHz" by multiplying 2.4ghz x 4, its as simple as that.
-Rick