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  1. #1

    getting ripped off. Looking for less expensive Colo

    Hello,

    Currently we have one 2U server sitting in a private cage at Savvis. we have been paying $4,000 per month for about 3 1/2 years. This includes 15Mbps connection as well as backup service. Our current provider is also our server admin.

    We are now looking to move to a different location where we can move more of our machines. Our current provider reccomended Internap. We checked with them and we could get a 42U cabinet for around $2,600.00 a month with hands on service to swap tapes and what not.

    This was for there houston facility. Our current provider then informed us that the only place we could go for reliable bandwidth would be there Ashburn, Virginia datacenter. Which would of course be more expensive. The internap sales man assured me that all there locations have the same connections and that they all have a 100% uptime gaurantee.

    Anythoughts on this situation. Any other providers you would reccomend?
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  2. #2
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    Where to start... hrrmmm.

    There are many quality colocation companies that can easily meet your needs, check out the 'offers' section.

    Second, Internap does NOT offer the same connectivity in all of their data centers, they have different providers in different areas.

    If your existing provider is saying that they can only offer reliable bandwidth in a different data center then you are in now, you are right in getting out as fast as possible!!

    What is your application, business model, etc?
    Do you have a geographic limitation on where your servers are located?
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  3. #3
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    He was talking about Internaps reliable facility, not his current providers'.


    I do not think you are getting ripped off paying $4000 for that setup, it all depends on the quality you receive. 15Megabits, 2U and a full time system admin is a good deal if you ask me as long as its quality.

    In any case if you go with internap i dont think that 42U cabinet includes 15Megabits does it? I would much prefer to stay where you are now unless you cannot afford it
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  4. #4
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    Re: getting ripped off. Looking for less expensive Colo

    Originally posted by jozwikjp
    Hello,

    Currently we have one 2U server sitting in a private cage at Savvis. we have been paying $4,000 per month for about 3 1/2 years. This includes 15Mbps connection as well as backup service. Our current provider is also our server admin.

    We are now looking to move to a different location where we can move more of our machines. Our current provider reccomended Internap. We checked with them and we could get a 42U cabinet for around $2,600.00 a month with hands on service to swap tapes and what not.

    This was for there houston facility. Our current provider then informed us that the only place we could go for reliable bandwidth would be there Ashburn, Virginia datacenter. Which would of course be more expensive. The internap sales man assured me that all there locations have the same connections and that they all have a 100% uptime gaurantee.

    Anythoughts on this situation. Any other providers you would reccomend?
    it sound like you're getting what you pay for....what's the rip off part?
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  5. #5
    Originally posted by Jinx_4th
    He was talking about Internaps reliable facility, not his current providers'.

    I do not think you are getting ripped off paying $4000 for that setup, it all depends on the quality you receive. 15Megabits, 2U and a full time system admin is a good deal if you ask me as long as its quality.

    In any case if you go with internap i dont think that 42U cabinet includes 15Megabits does it? I would much prefer to stay where you are now unless you cannot afford it
    Hasn't the price of bandwidth dropped in 3 years?

    He is not really a full time system admin. If there is a problem with the machine we call him. But I would not really consider that a full time admin. The price I was qouted was including the 15M line going to the cage. I also has a similiar qoute from Verio. (not really sure how they rate on the totem pole)

    And we can't really afford it considering we are paying 2 other colocation services.
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  6. #6
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    3.5 yrs ago, $4K might have been a decent deal for 2U and 15Mb/sec. $100 per U, and about $250/Mb/sec for transit. Today, well ... you can definately get much more for your money.
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  7. #7
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    Re: getting ripped off. Looking for less expensive Colo

    Originally posted by jozwikjp

    Currently we have one 2U server sitting in a private cage[/B]
    Arn't cages expensive? You're paying for a whole cage and using 2U.
    Please, call me RoF

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  8. #8
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    Last I checked a 42u cabinet with InterNAP or even Equinix direct is no where near 2600 ... the latest quote i have is 950 with a 650 NRC
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  9. #9
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    Seems to me like your guy just didnt drop the price for you even though he was paying less.

    Also, what provider is this? (If you don't mind sharing) and rangeroffire, I think he is using 2u in a cage owned by his provider ... i don't think its a 2u box on a desk in a cage ... this isn't a luxury suite at the waldorf for your box

    on another note, your quotes are high for both internap and whoever else you mentioned ...

    what are you using these servers for?
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  10. #10
    This particular server runs our both our banner ad exchanges. Some marketing courses that we sell. Our free website hosting program and a bunch of other little stuff.

    I checked with SAVVIS directly ( the current place we are (inside his cage)) And there first qoute back to us was what we are currently paying. $4,000 but.. This was for a I think a 25 or 30U cabinet. They repsonded back what do we have to do to earn your bussiness.. As in what price do we want. Wasn't sure what to ask for so I haven't responded yet.

    Thanks For help guys
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  11. #11
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    Why not pick a host that is multi-homed ...
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  12. #12
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    Originally posted by jozwikjp
    This particular server runs our both our banner ad exchanges. Some marketing courses that we sell. Our free website hosting program and a bunch of other little stuff.

    I checked with SAVVIS directly ( the current place we are (inside his cage)) And there first qoute back to us was what we are currently paying. $4,000 but.. This was for a I think a 25 or 30U cabinet. They repsonded back what do we have to do to earn your bussiness.. As in what price do we want. Wasn't sure what to ask for so I haven't responded yet.

    Thanks For help guys
    Just curious, have you tried renegotiating with your current host? It would be hard for a small/medium sized provider *not* to appreciate your type of business (small footprint, excellent money, longterm customer with personal bonds, etc.). Often providers wont touch rates until customers actively ask to renegotiate them; obviously the provider enjoys you paying the elevated rate, and wouldn't want to continuously reduce your rates every month something gets cheaper, by the same token though, I doubt they'd want to loose your business, or leave a negative impression.

    Before doing serious hunting (or before considering said hunting), I would strongly recommend talking to your provider about your rates, bandwidth pricing nowdays, etc. Obviously you've got a solution with this provider that works, especially if they're also acting as your sys-admin (otherwise, you wouldn't still be there). It's generally not necessary to break a functional relationship to get a new agreement in place.
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  13. #13
    Yes this all spawned from us asking to pay less. Started with several other co-locations we have. Renegotiated 3 of the to 1/2 or 1/3 of what we were paying.

    Originally when we first asked about lowering our rates he said he could cut it in half. But I think he changed his mind. I think he would rather force us to keep paying the same rate hoping that we will not leave to another provider. He says he actively wants to help us find the best solution and recommends other hosts to check out. However whenever we come back with the lower price that they qoute us, He says that there bandwidth quality is no good. Or tells us we need to go to a different location then the ones they qouted us for.
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  14. #14
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    Originally posted by jozwikjp
    Yes this all spawned from us asking to pay less. Started with several other co-locations we have. Renegotiated 3 of the to 1/2 or 1/3 of what we were paying.

    Originally when we first asked about lowering our rates he said he could cut it in half. But I think he changed his mind. I think he would rather force us to keep paying the same rate hoping that we will not leave to another provider. He says he actively wants to help us find the best solution and recommends other hosts to check out. However whenever we come back with the lower price that they qoute us, He says that there bandwidth quality is no good. Or tells us we need to go to a different location then the ones they qouted us for.
    Well thats somewhat disappointing to hear, as that generally indicates that he does not value your business, or simply does not respect/take you seriously.

    There are hundreds, potentially thousands of providers who would love to have you as a customer, and bend over backwards to get you signed, I can say that with absolute certainty based on what you have posted. If the existing provider doesen't want to play ball, I guess that simply leaves you no choice (which is certainly unfortunate). I suppose you'd have to find a new system admin to go along with it then eh?
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  15. #15
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    Hi,

    Have you considered Savvis' "Utility Computing" model? That might be a better approach to solve this problem. It would come out much cheaper for you in the long run than to continue to colo due to the parts/labor and some OS management would be handled by Savvis directly and this would be sold on a per system basis.
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  16. #16
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    Are you limited to any particular geographical location?
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  17. #17
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    If you want to get away from overpriced I would honestly stay away from InterNAP. There are many other Tier 2 providers that can provide you nearly the same SLA at a much lower price.
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  18. #18
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    Seems to me like there is a huge conflict of interest from thoes that you ask on these boards. You can ask people who create their own BGP blend or those that use InterNAP ... in the end judge for youreself and pick based on your needs.

    It all depends on the quality that you want and the premium you're willing to pay for it
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  19. #19
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    Originally posted by KarlZimmer
    If you want to get away from overpriced I would honestly stay away from InterNAP. There are many other Tier 2 providers that can provide you nearly the same SLA at a much lower price.
    Not to mention there's talk of InterNAP picking up Cogent in some of it's PNAP's. All of this was done "under the radar", AFAIK.



    Edit: It's not talk, it's actually been confirmed.
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  20. #20
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    Cogent is not a bad internet provider, do some research
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  21. #21
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    Originally posted by Jinx_4th
    Cogent is not a bad internet provider, do some research
    Actually, you just proved my point for me. Thanks

    True, they're not a bad provider - however, I don't know if i'd classify them as good enough to be in the same mix as InterNAP. To me, it just seems like InterNAP's blend is cheapening up some with the addition of Cogent.
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  22. #22
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    Check out http://www.carpathiahost.com - they resell space from one of Equinix's IBX's. Equinix maintains some of the best datacenters in the world and all the big names such as Microsoft, Google, IBM, Boeing etc. all maintain networks out of their datacenters. Off the top of my head, these are the only people that I would pick for such a project.

    You might also want to check out http://www.gnax.net or pm sailor here on the boards for some more information.
    Last edited by varg; 06-15-2005 at 06:11 AM.
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  23. #23

    getting ripped off

    Yeah, you are paying a little more than you should be - you should have renegotiated as the years passed to get your bottom line lower and a stronger ROI.

    Look to the Internap Solution if you want the good stuff, JMHO.
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  24. #24

    Re: getting ripped off

    Originally posted by Optimized_Routing
    Yeah, you are paying a little more than you should be - you should have renegotiated as the years passed to get your bottom line lower and a stronger ROI.

    Look to the Internap Solution if you want the good stuff, JMHO.
    He could get nearly the same quality from a *ton* of providers. Namely steadfastnetworks or crnc. They both are multi-homed to *very* nice bandwidth, and cost significantly less than what the OP is currently paying or would pay with internap. IMHO, it'd be better to be multi-homed (SFN [level3 & savvis] or crnc [NAC -- too many to list]) than just go with one bandwidth provider, no matter the quality. And there's plenty of bandwidth in most major cities, not just virginia. Sidenot: SFN is in chicago, crnc is in new jersey/ny
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  25. #25
    To compare steadfast networks with Internap is probably the funniest thing I've ever read on this board. With out a doubt -

    I am sure steadfast has big customers such as DHL, MLB,, NHL, Delta, Google, Expedia running the mission critcal applications on their netowork, right?

    I am sure they have multiple gigs of bandwidth and multiple locations around the world, right?

    FYI, steadfast is multihomed to a mix of savvis and level 3/savvis.

    Multi homed to the same provider? har har har.

    PS, level 3 went down at least 2 times for over 3 days in the last 12 months. But I'm sure you know that already.

    Guess you forgot Internap invented and patented the technology that Savvis is "trying" to be.

    I guess getting dual ethernet feeds and plugging them into a switch and a router wouldn't be an acceptable for you - even though the core switches and routers are plugged into multiple carriers at the gig e level. Guess that wouldn't give you both performance and redundancy.

    I am sure there is no value to having multiple engineers watching the global network and letting you know what is happening before it actuallly happens.

    Oh - that last few sentences were called sarcasm - I have to let you know that because I truly feel you are lacking a sense of humor and wouldn't understand unless it was pointed out to you.
    (You know.... the whole street smart vs. book smart argument)

    Seems to me nemesis has a hidden agenda - could be?
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  26. #26
    If you want to get away from overpriced I would honestly stay away from InterNAP. There are many other Tier 2 providers that can provide you nearly the same SLA at a much lower price.

    *******************************************************
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    Are you lauging yet, or do you guys just move along on those ignorant posts by Mr. KZ, Phd?
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  27. #27
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    Re: Re: getting ripped off

    Originally posted by Cserver
    IMHO, it'd be better to be multi-homed (SFN [level3 & savvis] or crnc [NAC -- too many to list]) than just go with one bandwidth provider
    If you go to SFN or CRNC, you are by definition multi homed. We are running BGP between Internap, Peer1, and Mzima for reasons other than our trust in Internap network quality. So we are multi-homed. But customer going with us will be single homed, even though we are multi-home. Unless if you are doing your own BGP, then you will always be single homed. The providers (CRNC, SFN, etc) can cut you off any time and you are dead. And if you want to be single homed, it's best to be single-homed with Internap.

    You have no clue about Internap architecture. I would like to tell you how Internap architecture is different than any smaller providers you go (SFN, CRNC, etc). These smaller providers can't get to you what Internap can. And that's why they are cheaper compared to Internap.
    Last edited by FHDave; 06-17-2005 at 02:14 PM.
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  28. #28
    Originally posted by Optimized_Routing
    To compare steadfast networks with Internap is probably the funniest thing I've ever read on this board. With out a doubt -

    I am sure steadfast has big customers such as DHL, MLB,, NHL, Delta, Google, Expedia running the mission critcal applications on their netowork, right?


    Seems to me nemesis has a hidden agenda - could be?
    Firstly, we aren't comparing customers of different companies. Secondly, I wasn't comparing them as companies, but for the quality of their bandwidth and pings.

    And yes, I do have a secret agenda! I work for the CIA and work as part of their netgeekz secretzorz projekt!!!111!!!. Not really, and stop kidding yourself. InterNAP is definitly *one* of the best, but you can't claim it is the best by any measure of the imagination.
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  29. #29
    InterNAP is definitly *one* of the best, but you can't claim it is the best by any measure of the imagination.
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  30. #30
    Just a quick fyi - cogent is NOT part of internap's fabric.

    Never has, never will be. If they ripped Qwest out of the fabric 2 years ago, what makes you think that cogent stands a chance? Less than 1% of the routes does not make for an attractive carrier.

    What's the next bogus thing you will claim - Internap is powered by Dungeon's and Dragons? Oh no, that's YOUR ISP.

    I heard you are going to replace your Juniper routers with the newest edition of Magic, The Game..... is that true, too?
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  31. #31
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    Originally posted by Optimized_Routing
    To compare steadfast networks with Internap is probably the funniest thing I've ever read on this board. With out a doubt -

    ....

    FYI, steadfast is multihomed to a mix of savvis and level 3/savvis.

    Multi homed to the same provider? har har har.
    Lets not get too far ahead of ourselves here. Steadfast is indeed no Internap, but that doesn't mean that the price that Internap charges for their extra-valuable 'services' is justified by the increase in performance you MIGHT get if you chose InterNAP in Chicago compared to Steadfast. You will sure as hell save a ton of cash by going with Steadfast (or, well, anyone else really. Peer 1 has been talked highly of on these forums).

    Multihomed to a mix of Savvis and Level3/Savvis? As you say: Har har. The "premium network" is a mix of Level 3, Savvis, and Beyond the Network (with BTN not being used as much as L3 and Savvis). 3 Distinct Gig-E lines to 3 Distinct Providers (plus a cogent line that is not put in the Premium Mix, and there MAY be multiple lines to a L3/Savvis, I haven't been down to Equinix for a few months). I've seen the lines in person, and if you wish to go to Chicago I'm sure Karl and/or Ray will point to all 3 of them for you.

    /doesn't work for Steadfast
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  32. #32
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    Originally posted by Optimized_Routing
    FYI, steadfast is multihomed to a mix of savvis and level 3/savvis.

    Multi homed to the same provider? har har har.
    Are you suggesting that Savvis and Level3 are the same provider?


    Originally posted by Optimized_Routing
    Guess you forgot Internap invented and patented the technology that Savvis is "trying" to be.
    Care you explain?
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  33. #33
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    By the Way, O_R, why the trolling?
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  34. #34
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    Originally posted by NickCatal
    By the Way, O_R, why the trolling?
    Trying to show how professional his company is perhaps?
    If you donít like the road youíre walking on, start paving a new one.
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  35. #35
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    Exactly why you see
    "Optimized_Routing
    Account Disabled"

    But This is getting a bit off topic... Good Luck with your Colocation Search.. There is alot of Quality and Good Hosts out there that are more then willing to post there custom quotes for you.. Take the time to actually learn about your future host.. There history.. I spent almost a Month trying to figure out which DC to colo a full rack of my personal machines in.. So time could only tell you more about your future colocation host.
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  36. #36
    Originally posted by Optimized_Routing
    Just a quick fyi - cogent is NOT part of internap's fabric.

    Never has, never will be. If they ripped Qwest out of the fabric 2 years ago, what makes you think that cogent stands a chance? Less than 1% of the routes does not make for an attractive carrier.
    Not true. According to the InterNAP NOC, as of May 18, 2005, InterNAP uses Cogent peering in Denver. It may be used in other PNAPs as well. Cogent bandwidth is likely being used as part of the mix to reduce latencies and increase reachability between external Cogent customers and customers of InterNAP at the PNAP.
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  37. #37
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    Originally posted by Optimized_Routing
    To compare steadfast networks with Internap is probably the funniest thing I've ever read on this board. With out a doubt -

    I am sure steadfast has big customers such as DHL, MLB,, NHL, Delta, Google, Expedia running the mission critcal applications on their netowork, right?

    I am sure they have multiple gigs of bandwidth and multiple locations around the world, right?

    FYI, steadfast is multihomed to a mix of savvis and level 3/savvis.

    Multi homed to the same provider? har har har.

    PS, level 3 went down at least 2 times for over 3 days in the last 12 months. But I'm sure you know that already.

    Guess you forgot Internap invented and patented the technology that Savvis is "trying" to be.

    I guess getting dual ethernet feeds and plugging them into a switch and a router wouldn't be an acceptable for you - even though the core switches and routers are plugged into multiple carriers at the gig e level. Guess that wouldn't give you both performance and redundancy.

    I am sure there is no value to having multiple engineers watching the global network and letting you know what is happening before it actuallly happens.

    Oh - that last few sentences were called sarcasm - I have to let you know that because I truly feel you are lacking a sense of humor and wouldn't understand unless it was pointed out to you.
    (You know.... the whole street smart vs. book smart argument)

    Seems to me nemesis has a hidden agenda - could be?
    1) What does that prove that those people are customers? It does not prove anything regarding a level of service as everyone's needs are different. The likes of DHL, Google, etc. are not our target market anyway....

    2) We do have multiple gigs of connectivity, so check your facts on that one.

    3) Multi-homed to the same provider? We connect to Savvis, Level(3), BtN, and Cogent, last I checked that is more than one provider.

    4) And who can't provide redundant ethernet feeds, I don't know of many providers that can't do that...

    5) Hidden agendas? I believe you are the only one with a hidden agenda here as you are an InterNAP sales rep trying to simply slam a competitor with nothing to back it up with and inaccurate "facts."
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    He's already banned ... beating a horse that's already dead

    And if I were InterNAP management, I'd fire Art Ackerman - the guy's like 10 years old trying to prove to other people that his marbles on shinier on the playground
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  39. #39
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    Toronto, Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    5,954
    Originally posted by The Broadband Man
    He's already banned ... beating a horse that's already dead

    And if I were InterNAP management, I'd fire Art Ackerman - the guy's like 10 years old trying to prove to other people that his marbles on shinier on the playground
    Thats ok, maybe he'll get the internap brand censored from WHT at the pace he was moving .
      0 Not allowed!

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