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Thread: Why is this going on in Amercia?
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06-02-2005, 06:33 PM #1An Awesome Dude
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Why is this going on in Amercia?
http://www.azcentral.com/news/opinio...aldez0501.html
http://www.rickross.com/reference/po...lygamy196.html
The "prophet" of Colorado City, Ariz., says God hates the sound of babies crying.
You'd think that kind of dogma would be laughed off the face of the Earth. Instead, it prospered in the clear air on the Arizona-Utah line.
Laurene Jessop, who grew up in the polygamous cult of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, says one of the ways to get an infant to stop crying is to tightly hold its nose and mouth. Another cult method is to put a crying baby's face under running water.
The lesson is that "you have no voice," says Flora Jessop, who also grew up in the polygamous cult that rules Colorado City and Hildale, Utah.
She found her voice and became a passionate advocate for those who remain under the thumb of a cult that has grown to about 10,000 people.
Flora and Laurene recently spoke to a student group at the University of Arizona College of Law. The audience listened with horrified expressions to stories that didn't seem possible in modern America.
As a child begins to learn the concepts of self, the audience was told, everything related to individuality is taken away. Words like "I," "me" and "mine" are forbidden. So is laughter.
"You break their spirit," says Flora, who grew up with 28 siblings. Her father married her mother's younger sister after the first 10 were born. "I listened to my mother cry herself to sleep every night after that," she says.
This isn't Ozzie and the Three Harriets.
Soon after puberty, girls are assigned by the "prophet" to a husband, usually an older man. Men need at least three wives to get into the "celestial kingdom." A woman can only be "celestialized" if she pleases her husband.
Laurene, who has 56 siblings, was assigned in marriage as a teen. She says she "was guilty" of using cult-accepted methods of child breaking on her five children. But she rebelled.
Now, she, too, is finding her voice.
Someone in the UA audience asked why law enforcement can't use DNA evidence to prosecute old men who father babies by underage girls. The audience applauded. I predict Dr. Phil's audience will take the same bait.
Arizona Attorney General Terry Goddard says, "If we could do it, we would have."
Lack of grounds
Cult birth certificates don't usually list the fathers. Without a complaining witness, there are no grounds to demand a DNA sample.
Especially not if the mother refuses to testify, lies under oath or swears she impregnated herself with a turkey baster. All those arguments have been used to protect the patriarchs of Colorado City.
Goddard and Utah Attorney General Mark Shurtleff have been working to build a presence and trust in Colorado City and Hildale. A hotline has been established, a victim's advocacy center is open in Colorado City, Arizona is moving to decertify two polygamous Colorado City law officers, and investigations into welfare fraud and other shady activities are ongoing. County attorneys in Arizona and Utah are trying to win the trust and cooperation of witnesses who will testify against the cult.
Those aren't the kinds of things that will play well on national TV. Not when Flora Jessop lets loose her message that not enough is being done.
Goddard declined to appear on Dr. Phil because "pop psychology and I don't mix." Shurtleff was interviewed.
In my heart, I agree with Flora Jessop. I want to see the cult broken now. I want those babies to learn to laugh - and cry.
But in my head, I know it's not that easy. It has to be done meticulously and with the kind of respect for the law and human dignity that won't soon be laughed off the face of the Earth.
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06-02-2005, 06:42 PM #2Web Hosting Master
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Dude I have seen another post from you regarding azcentral r u in Arizona, maybe its time for a Arizona WHY meet?
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06-02-2005, 06:43 PM #3Web Hosting Master
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I watched that on Dr Phil I think either last week or the week before. Scarrrrrrry stuff! Very sick as well. Oh it's allowed because the law enforcement in that city is also apart of the polygamy group. The whole entire town is basically under the groups control.
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06-02-2005, 06:59 PM #4Web Hosting Master
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edit above post WHT meet - (the shame)
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06-02-2005, 07:29 PM #5Web Hosting Master
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I think the Doc would love to join that cult. Ok Ok no joking this is a serious subject.
It's so sad the feds should do some cleaning in that town.Jean-Pierre Abboud / I'm the TekGURU
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06-02-2005, 07:31 PM #6Predatory Poster
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Isn't this how Mormonism started or was it the Oneidans?
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06-02-2005, 08:05 PM #7Web Hosting Master
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There's crazy and gullible people all over the world. Probably more than not. What can you do, it happens everywhere.
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06-02-2005, 08:46 PM #8WHT Addict
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Originally posted by pixelized
Isn't this how Mormonism started or was it the Oneidans?
That being said, the LDS church was not started as an exuse for people to practice polygamy. Infact, I would highly recommend that you read the Doctrine and Covenants to learn more about the history of the church.
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06-02-2005, 08:54 PM #9Web Hosting Master
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Originally posted by Marklittle
FLDS and so called "Mormonism" are two completely diffrent things. FLDS was a break-off of the mainstream LDS(mormon) and is a church of radicals(the FLDS, that is). While they claim to still be LDS they are not recognized by the main stream church and have been excomunicated accordingly.
That being said, the LDS church was not started as an exuse for people to practice polygamy. Infact, I would highly recommend that you read the Doctrine and Covenants to learn more about the history of the church.
There is also some interesting "history" behind the "revelation" of polygamy to Joseph Smith. His wife flipped out when she heard from Joseph Smith that God had revealed that to him. She was apparently not too happy with the arrangement and threw one of his wives over a staircase.
I really wouldn't ask people to check source documents if I were a Mormon. They lead to too many embarassing facts about the founding of the religion.Rich
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06-02-2005, 09:03 PM #10WHT Addict
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Originally posted by DevilDog
I've done a pretty good amount of reading about the founding of the LDS, including some source documents that are no longer in print. It is interesting that a "living prophet" of the stature of Joseph Smith and then Brigham Young would once condone and encourage polygamy but that somehow Polygamy was later condemned. Were Joseph Smith and Brigham Young in error when they claimed Polygamy was sanctified by God or did God just change?
There is also some interesting "history" behind the "revelation" of polygamy to Joseph Smith. His wife flipped out when she heard from Joseph Smith that God had revealed that to him. She was apparently not too happy with the arrangement and threw one of his wives over a staircase.
I really wouldn't ask people to check source documents if I were a Mormon. They lead to too many embarassing facts about the founding of the religion.
That aside, yes, the mainstream LDS church did have afew members who practiced polygamy. There is no argument about that, and yes, it was condoned at a later point. There could be plenty of reasons for it, honestly im not sure why. One could be that they lived in the middle of no where, there was a very small population. For those who wonder why they would subject themselves to living in the middle of no where, it was because people didnt like them, simply put. Until recently there was a law in one state allowing you to shoot any mormon you see dead. Also, at the time it was practiced it was still legal in the majority of the united states(yes, polygamy was legal in the united states)
. After polygamy was outlawed by the US government, the LDS church dropped it also, this was one of the requirements that the US government had so that Utah could become its own state. Some members refused to do so, and moved to Mexico where they continued to practice polygamy. However this members were kicked from the church for doing such.
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06-02-2005, 09:16 PM #11Web Hosting Master
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Marklittle,
Would you like me to quote verbatim some statements from the words of your living prophets? If you're going to accuse me of getting my information from a anti-Mormonism site you better be prepared for facts and not the talking points you receive from your Elders and Bishops.
Just let me know and I'll quote where people can look for themselves.
Every time a person brings up a problem with your founders it is not persecution although it is convenient to claim so.Rich
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06-02-2005, 10:09 PM #12ex-Aussie
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My wife is 'technically' a Mormon (non practising/non believing). I asked her once if that meant I could have an extra wife or two. She said, "You're not Mormon even though we're married".
I then asked her if I should be become a Mormon so I could have any extra wife or two. She said she'd kick my *** if I ever tried.
The 'guys on bikes' used to drop around once in a while, but they figured out I wasn't buying so haven't been back. For the most part, very nice people.
Regarding my own opinion of the religion itself I refer you to the South Park episode they did on it.Former Webhost... now, just a guy.
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06-03-2005, 02:40 PM #13Business Consultant Manager
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Originally posted by Tim_Greer
There's crazy and gullible people all over the world. Probably more than not. What can you do, it happens everywhere.█ www.JGRoboMarketing.com / "Automate. Grow. Repeat"
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06-03-2005, 06:00 PM #14Web Hosting Master
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I noticed cults are popping up more and more often spreading propaganda and growing. I mean look at PETA for an example spreading lies and entering our schools to indoctrinate children. I personally feel the government should be allowed to take lethal force against cult leaders, because if you take out the power hungry leader they can usually fall apart easily. I mean its obvious to me the guy who started this cult is nothing more than a pedophile seeking out young girls and probably wouldn't admit it if asked.
Kerry Jones
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06-03-2005, 06:13 PM #15Web Hosting Master
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Originally posted by akashik
Regarding my own opinion of the religion itself I refer you to the South Park episode they did on it.
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06-03-2005, 06:30 PM #16Web Hosting Master
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Ha ha, sweeet, you guys.
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06-03-2005, 08:25 PM #17Web Hosting Master
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You know what I just don't get...
Why must polygamy be a synonym for pedophelia?
If I could marry like 3 girls, I probably wouldn't be so hesitant to get married. But it would have to be an of-age consentual type deal of course.
Not that I'm even serious, but I figure if 2 guys can get married why not a guy and 5 grown women?EZZI.net - A Service of Access Integrated Technologies Inc
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06-03-2005, 08:34 PM #18Web Hosting Master
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I personally have no more of an opinion of whom someone marries, or how many, anymore than I do about gay marriage. It's not for me, but I don't care what other people do. The problem is that it sometimes leads into other things (not always, I guess). My bigger problem with it all, is the other crazy stuff these people come up with, but still, as long as it only affects them and doesn't harm anyone, everyone's consenting adults (adults!), I figure it's entirely their problem and none of my business. Trying to keep tabs on all the nuts out there, who'd possibly have the time?
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06-03-2005, 08:36 PM #19Web Hosting Master
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Originally posted by Tim_Greer
I personally have no more of an opinion of whom someone marries, or how many, anymore than I do about gay marriage. It's not for me, but I don't care what other people do. The problem is that it sometimes leads into other things (not always, I guess). My bigger problem with it all, is the other crazy stuff these people come up with, but still, as long as it only affects them and doesn't harm anyone, everyone's consenting adults (adults!), I figure it's entirely their problem and none of my business. Trying to keep tabs on all the nuts out there, who'd possibly have the time?
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06-03-2005, 08:41 PM #20Web Hosting Master
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Originally posted by Tim_Greer
Trying to keep tabs on all the nuts out there, who'd possibly have the time?EZZI.net - A Service of Access Integrated Technologies Inc
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06-04-2005, 01:40 AM #21Web Hosting Master
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I have no problems with polgamy or gay marriage... however I do have a problem with 30-year-old pedophiles who marry and have sex with 12, 13, and 14 year old girls. It isn't a time when a child's judgement isn't best and up until adulthood the decision part of their brain is still developing.
Kerry Jones
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06-04-2005, 02:02 AM #22Webhosting Reseller
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Mormonism (Latter Day Saints), mainstream or not. It's a cult! Stay away from their teachings.
He who hates correction will die. --Proverbs 15:10
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06-04-2005, 02:31 AM #23WHT Addict
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Originally posted by Jeffreyw
Mormonism (Latter Day Saints), mainstream or not. It's a cult! Stay away from their teachings.
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06-04-2005, 07:48 AM #24Web Hosting Master
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It is a cult, how?Kerry Jones
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06-04-2005, 10:00 AM #25ex-Aussie
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Ironic, given the sig he's using.
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