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  1. #1
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    Unhappy 4yr old Accidentally Killed During Target Practice

    www.local6.com/news/4548033/detail.html

    This is just UNREAL............Its bad enough the guy brings him to a target practice range,BUT TO DRESS HIM IN CAMOFLAGUE??? What was he thinking???

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    he was probably trying to teach his son to hunt thus the reason for the camoflague. in the woods during my days of boyscouts one of the things I wid was put on green pants and wore a green poncho while we played capture the flag. In this case he probably bonding with his son and preparing him to go hunting with him and his boy in a few years.
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    I feel sorry for the family. Those parents must feel so bad for letting him wander They must also be really pissed off at the guy who shot him.
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    Sucks for his family, but not anymore for him.

  5. #5
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    Originally posted by Kerry Jones
    he was probably trying to teach his son to hunt thus the reason for the camoflague. in the woods during my days of boyscouts one of the things I wid was put on green pants and wore a green poncho while we played capture the flag. In this case he probably bonding with his son and preparing him to go hunting with him and his boy in a few years.
    teaching him that at 4 years old is kind of rdiciulous, moronic, and stupid...and people wonder why there is so much gun violence in the USA...

  6. #6
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    Originally posted by adam
    teaching him that at 4 years old is kind of rdiciulous, moronic, and stupid...and people wonder why there is so much gun violence in the USA...
    And it surely cannot be attributed to educated and informed Americans who learn, at an early age, the proper handling, usage, and maintenance of firearms at their disposal. They say you learn best when you're young, and this holds true when talking about guns, as well.

    Those who, by far, commit the most crimes with guns in the U.S. are not those characterized above, but are usually poor, uneducated (or less so than most), and have very bad family situations and circumstances; they are often, for example, in gangs and other groups that encourage such violence.

  7. #7
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    If guns were not so readily available in the US then there would not be so much gun violence.

  8. #8
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    The problem wasn't the gun, the problem was the adults not watching the child. Children that young have to be watched ever so carefully, they move fast and can disappear in the blink of an eye. Every year so many young children die needlessly, running into the streets, falling into pools, heck even getting backed over by Mom or Dad in the driveway. All those parents will tell you, they let their attention wander just a moment, and then it was too late.
    "Arms discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property... Horrid mischief would ensue were the law-abiding deprived of the use of them." - Thomas Paine

  9. #9
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    Originally posted by adam
    If guns were not so readily available in the US then there would not be so much gun violence.
    and if cars were not so readily available in the U.S. then there would not be so many car accidents.

    an if beer was not so realiy available in the U.S. then there wouldn't be so many DUIS

    and if computers weren't so readily available in the U.S. then there wouldn't be so much spam .

    bla blah blah

    The problem isn't gun control, the problem is adult responsbilites are being neglected.

  10. #10
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    Originally posted by adam
    teaching him that at 4 years old is kind of rdiciulous, moronic, and stupid...and people wonder why there is so much gun violence in the USA...
    This is not 'gun violence' as they weren't intentionally trying to kill the kid. This is an accident. Don't you have shooting ranges up there in Canada too? While I do agree that it is pretty stupid and pathetic to take a 4 year old to a shooting range, it doesn't mean that it can automatically be attributed to gun violence either. Accidents happen. Accidents suck. That's a part of life. Move on.

  11. #11
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    Originally posted by adam
    teaching him that at 4 years old is kind of rdiciulous, moronic, and stupid...and people wonder why there is so much gun violence in the USA...

    Why is it stupid? Kids need to learn young to learn how to handle a gun, and how to fire a gun.

  12. #12
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    Originally posted by Torith
    Why is it stupid? Kids need to learn young to learn how to handle a gun, and how to fire a gun.
    That is where you are wrong, kid's dont "need" to learn how to use a gun.

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    This kinda sucks, the thing sucks, but its one of those accidents that you have to take as a learning experience no matter how much it hurts
    All life is an experiment. The more experiments you make the better.

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    Originally posted by adam
    That is where you are wrong, kid's dont "need" to learn how to use a gun.
    If your parents owned a farm, don't you think they'd want to teach you how to milk a cow or how to seed? Just the same, if your family hunts, don't you think they ought to -- or, to rephrase, wouldn't it be safe to -- teach their kids at a young age the proper care and usage of a gun, something which can kill animals out of necessity, shoot targets for recreation, and, the last but most unfortunate use for a gun when one's intention is to harm rather than defend, kill fellow human beings? As I said, the younger you learn, the quicker it comes to you and the more second-nature it is when you need or wish to fire a gun for self-defense, hunting, or recreation.
    Last edited by SniperDevil; 05-31-2005 at 04:42 PM.

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    If guns were not so readily available in the US then there would not be so much gun violence.
    we have something called "gun licenses" where citizens go through a training course on how to properly handle a weapon and where to aim if your in a dangerous situation. It was clearly an accident and accidents do happen unfornately. However with your logic our speed limits should be set to 5 mphs an hours because of car accidents. No matter what your going to do there will always be accidents in some form for anything.
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  16. #16
    Guns don't kill people, people kill people.

    Seriously, if youa re shooting, make a barrier behind a target.

  17. #17
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    I don't understand how you guys dont think that 4 years old is a bit to young to be learning how to use a gun...4 years old..come on now

  18. #18
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    I don't understand how you guys dont think that 4 years old is a bit to young to be learning how to use a gun...4 years old..come on now
    Its called male bonding where a father and son have some type of hobby to enjoy. I shot off a few rifles around the age of 12, but that didn't turn me into a homicidal murderer. It was a very serious matter when shooting off the rifles. We had to make sure everyone was clear off the shooting rifle and would fire when instructed. I have great respect for guns that can kill you.
    Kerry Jones

  19. #19
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    Originally posted by adam
    I don't understand how you guys dont think that 4 years old is a bit to young to be learning how to use a gun...4 years old..come on now
    It does not say any where that they where teaching him how to shoot a gun. I am guessing the parents wanted to spend time with their kids. So how is that wrong?

  20. #20
    Originally posted by adam
    If guns were not so readily available in the US then there would not be so much gun violence.
    Agreed, good ideas for this would be tighter licencing, or like us brits, ban them altogether.

  21. #21
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    Originally posted by Cserver
    Guns don't kill people, people kill people.

    Seriously, if youa re shooting, make a barrier behind a target.
    I always thought it was the bullets that killed people...

  22. #22
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    Originally posted by varg
    This is not 'gun violence' as they weren't intentionally trying to kill the kid. This is an accident. Don't you have shooting ranges up there in Canada too? While I do agree that it is pretty stupid and pathetic to take a 4 year old to a shooting range, it doesn't mean that it can automatically be attributed to gun violence either. Accidents happen. Accidents suck. That's a part of life. Move on.

    Oh yea.. someone dies... "that's part of life.. Move on". Very comforting words... (keeps shaking his head...)

    Rob83 anything to get off the backs of the NRA, or putting more restictioning laws on Guns..... right?
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  23. #23
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    The problem with gun laws is it only hurts the people that legally use them. No bank robber ever got to the bank and thought "OMG this gun isnt registered I cant use it to rob this bank" and then went home.

    And if you think banning guns to everybody forever will solve it you are insane. Last I checked coke and heroin where illegal, however if I was looking Im sure I could get some in under an hour.

    And if I where a thief I think I would be FAR more likely to break into peoples homes if I had a gun and knew they didnt. Currently its a gamble, break in they might have a gun and you might get dead.

    You can ban the gun, in the name of saving the world. But you might just be handing it over without a fight.


    The child died and its sad. But if it wasnt a gun, it would be a bow and arrow and if it wasnt the bow and arrow it would be a rock.
    Bad stuff happens.

  24. #24
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    I do not think most people want to ban guns, they want to "control" the amount of guns. If you are a hunter, you should understand supply and demand. If there are to many Deers, you are allowed to go out there and kill a bunch more to "control" the population. If not a lot of Deers get killed there will be to many deers and cause problems.

    The same for guns.. its called "control". In just about every case, if there are to many of something its a problem. Live in a highly populated area that the population is out of "control".. is that fun? Ofcourse not...

    I do not and never want to ban guns. I do not own a gun, but I feel its a right of a U.S citizen to have a gun. But I'd like to control the amount of guns in this country. There are way to many of them, and way to many of them are getting into very very bad peoples hands.

    Ofcourse the child being shot was caused by a person who "used" a gun. If the gun wasn't there.. the child would not be dead. A gun is just an extension of the person who used it. Ofcourse the gun doesn't have a face, doesn't have a name.. so its hard for some of you to blame it. Im sure if we drew a face on it and gave it a you would think differently.. sad.
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  25. #25
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    Why is it stupid? Kids need to learn young to learn how to handle a gun, and how to fire a gun.
    seek professional help.

    If your parents owned a farm, don't you think they'd want to teach you how to milk a cow or how to seed?
    Show me an article about somebody dying while milking a cow.

    Just the same, if your family hunts,
    Hunting is a hobby. There is no requirement for hunting. They aren't going to lose the house if they don't hunt.

    Guns don't kill people, people kill people.
    Guns make it possible for people to kill people.

    Its called male bonding where a father and son have some type of hobby to enjoy.
    Go fishing, go to a sporting event. To say that a father and son should go out hunting is like saying father and son should sit down to watch a snuff film.


    Everyone, ask yourself this: when were you were 4, did you enjoy seeing innocent animals be killed?

  26. #26
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    Hunting is not just a hobby it is also to feed your family. As well when you fishing isn't that killing an animal as well?


    Originally posted by mikeylove
    seek professional help.


    Show me an article about somebody dying while milking a cow.


    Hunting is a hobby. There is no requirement for hunting. They aren't going to lose the house if they don't hunt.


    Guns make it possible for people to kill people.


    Go fishing, go to a sporting event. To say that a father and son should go out hunting is like saying father and son should sit down to watch a snuff film.


    Everyone, ask yourself this: when were you were 4, did you enjoy seeing innocent animals be killed?

  27. #27
    Originally posted by SniperDevil
    And it surely cannot be attributed to educated and informed Americans who learn, at an early age, the proper handling, usage, and maintenance of firearms at their disposal. They say you learn best when you're young, and this holds true when talking about guns, as well.

    Those who, by far, commit the most crimes with guns in the U.S. are not those characterized above, but are usually poor, uneducated (or less so than most), and have very bad family situations and circumstances; they are often, for example, in gangs and other groups that encourage such violence.
    yeah, cause the group of people who shot and allowed to be shot a 4y/o boy were so educated and informed to a point of proper handling, usuage and maintenance of firearms

    now where's the rolling eyes smilie...



    doesnt michael moore point out something like Canada has more guns per person than the US or something? Canadians hunt plenty anyway, lot more than Americans, but we shoot human beings... well... tonnnsss less.

  28. #28
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    Hunting is not just a hobby it is also to feed your family. As well when you fishing isn't that killing an animal as well?
    People still hunt to feed their families? Didn't that die back in.. the 1940?

    As well when you fishing isn't that killing an animal as well?
    Fishing is killing an animal. But fishing isn't nearly as dangerous as hanging out in the woods shooting a gun that is capable of murdering any living being.

  29. #29
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    Originally posted by mikeylove
    People still hunt to feed their families? Didn't that die back in.. the 1940?


    Fishing is killing an animal. But fishing isn't nearly as dangerous as hanging out in the woods shooting a gun that is capable of murdering any living being.
    I'm gonna have to agree with mikey again. And to answer his question.. did I go out and kill animals when I was 4? No way, my parents were teaching me "good" things. How to learn, how to interacte with other kids.. not going out to learn how to hunt. I don't have anything against hunting, i'd rather learn things first
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  30. #30
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    I am so stinking angry right now at the father of this kid. I know he probably feels bad but as a person who takes weapon safety seriously this is just plain negligence. He thought he had him "under control". Grrr. I wish I could just... I'm so upset about this.
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  31. #31
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    Originally posted by mikeylove
    Show me an article about somebody dying while milking a cow.
    You can die walking down the street, you can die driving a car, you can die cooking, you can die eating, you can die drinking, you can die taking prescription drugs that were intended to save your life, you can die at home doing nothing by means of an electrical or other fire, you can die at work because of some employee gone postal, you can die at your favorite restaurant, you can die while walking up steps, you can die while running a marathon, you can die while playing a sport, you can die while on a cruise, you can die in Hawaii, you can die playing chess, you can die absolutely anywhere; thus, by some means, even if not directly caused by the action of milking a cow, you can die while milking a cow.

    What is your point, Mikey? I just don't understand. As I said, guns don't kill people -- people do. If guns cause crime, do matches cause arson? Does water cause drowning?

    I thought these might be interesting to you:

    Quote Originally Posted by http://www.rense.com/general62/gns.htm
    (A) The number of physicians in the U.S. is 700,000.
    (B) Accidental deaths caused by Physicians per year are 120,000.
    (C) Accidental deaths per physician is 0.171.

    (Statistics courtesy of U.S. Dept. of Health Human Services)

    Guns
    (A) The number of gun owners in the U.S. is 80,000,000.
    Yes, that is 80 million.

    (B) The number of accidental gun deaths per year, all age groups, is 1,500.
    (C) The number of accidental deaths per gun owner is 0.000188.
    Originally posted by mikeylove
    Hunting is a hobby. There is no requirement for hunting. They aren't going to lose the house if they don't hunt.
    How do you know? Many people still hunt for their family's food, and while it might not be a question of life or death, the notion of not being able to hunt because you wouldn't die if you didn't is rather inane.

    Anyhow, what's wrong with hunting as a hobby? Hunting doesn't even have an impact on the leading causes of death list, let alone is it on it. Should we not drive, because there is the much, much, much higher potential of getting into an accident?


    Originally posted by mikeylove
    Guns make it possible for people to kill people.
    Shall I list another hundred things that come to my mind that can be used to kill people as well? I'll start it, you can continue if you'd like: knives, scissors, pens, pencils, fists, glass, televisions, dollar bills, paper, pillows, linens, washing machines, dryers, shoes, socks, other clothes, cars, planes, boats, other modes of transportation, coins, rocks, sticks, trees, bees, flies, dogs, spiders, mosquitos, ticks, scorpions, other animals, paintball guns, water, fire, air, heat, cold, rope, yo-yos, etcetera.

    I guess you still don't understand that it's just not possible to have a wholly unarmed society because the bad guys are always going to have the edge on the unarmed, law-abiding citizens, who would not buy guns because it's against the law. Thus, banning all guns wouldn't prevent any crime; it would only raise the violent crime rate due to the inability of citizens to protect themselves against criminals who would not follow this law.

    Besides, that's not even the issue: anything can kill you. If we didn't have guns, determined killers would kill their victims another way. There's always another way to kill somebody. A gun just makes it easier for the killer, but not allowing the victim, who has much more to lose than the perpetrator and who is more conscious and abiding of the law, to have one is effectively a death sentence at a time when this victim could have defended him or herself, had he or she had a gun.

    Originally posted by mikeylove
    Go fishing, go to a sporting event. To say that a father and son should go out hunting is like saying father and son should sit down to watch a snuff film.
    What the heck?! I see no connection whatsoever, so I'll just ignore the analogy, but please answer this: what is so wrong with hunting?


    Originally posted by mikeylove
    Everyone, ask yourself this: when were you were 4, did you enjoy seeing innocent animals be killed?
    Another completely outrageous and irrelevant comparison.

  32. #32
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    Good post SniperDevil.

    Bottom line here is that this was poor parenting. Easy to look at the instrument here of negligent death rather than looking at the material cause of the death.

    People are always looking for opportunities to excuse the decisions of others by blaming the proximate cause of a death on everything rather than looking at the people who really cause the death.

    For my part, I would never have a 4 year old anywhere near a formal pistol range much less one set up on somebody's property.

    If you really feel like guns are bad for society do what you can to change the Constitution. I don't own any guns but know how to use them well and how to prevent mishaps. The issue here is not the weapon but the person who was completely negligent. I think he should do jail time for this personally.
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    So sad... but you have to think before you do... prepare for the worst. The poor family...

  34. #34
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    (B) The number of accidental gun deaths per year, all age groups, is 1,500.
    (C) The number of accidental deaths per gun owner is 0.000188.
    Funny how you took something with the least amount of numbers... lets do *ALL* gun deaths in the U.S shall we: 29,000 per year (very low numbers IMHO.. I am sure its a lot more).

    How can you compare doctors who are professional trained physicians who help to save peoples lives to a gun? Working on a "human body", is NOTHING like shooting a gun. Bad anology.. gotta love your googling
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    You can die walking down the street, you can die driving a car, you can die cooking, you can die eating, you can die drinking, you can die taking prescription drugs that were intended to save your life, you can die at home doing nothing by means of an electrical or other fire, you can die at work because of some employee gone postal, you can die at your favorite restaurant, you can die while walking up steps, you can die while running a marathon, you can die while playing a sport, you can die while on a cruise, you can die in Hawaii, you can die playing chess, you can die absolutely anywhere; thus, by some means, even if not directly caused by the action of milking a cow, you can die while milking a cow.
    Well, here's the thing about all those examples you provided.

    None of those things were created specifically for murder.

    Guns on the other hand were created for murder.

    How do you know? Many people still hunt for their family's food, and while it might not be a question of life or death, the notion of not being able to hunt because you wouldn't die if you didn't is rather inane.
    Let's think about this for a second.

    Back in the days when people did hunt for their own food, grocery stores were few and far between.

    Now, in this modern society we have, there is a grocery store in pretty much every town.

    Now with that being said, Why would someone waste money on bullets, gun powder, and whatever supplies are needed for hunting. When, not even all of their supplies are guarenteed to make a kill.

    Why would people invest all that money into merely opportunities to kill, when they could just as easily spend that money on food, and have a guarenteed meal on their table?

    What the heck?! I see no connection whatsoever, so I'll just ignore the analogy, but please answer this: what is so wrong with hunting?
    It's glorified murder.

    Another completely outrageous and irrelevant comparison.
    Well, do you think the kid had something to gain by going out to watch his dad kill innocent animals?

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    Originally posted by DevilDog
    Good post SniperDevil.

    Bottom line here is that this was poor parenting. Easy to look at the instrument here of negligent death rather than looking at the material cause of the death.

    People are always looking for opportunities to excuse the decisions of others by blaming the proximate cause of a death on everything rather than looking at the people who really cause the death.

    For my part, I would never have a 4 year old anywhere near a formal pistol range much less one set up on somebody's property.

    If you really feel like guns are bad for society do what you can to change the Constitution. I don't own any guns but know how to use them well and how to prevent mishaps. The issue here is not the weapon but the person who was completely negligent. I think he should do jail time for this personally.
    Exactly; spot on. Well said.

    Quote Originally Posted by RealtorHost
    Funny how you took something with the least amount of numbers... lets do *ALL* gun deaths in the U.S shall we: 29,000 per year (very low numbers IMHO.. I am sure its a lot more).

    How can you compare doctors who are professional trained physicians who help to save peoples lives to a gun? Working on a "human body", is NOTHING like shooting a gun. Bad anology.. gotta love your googling
    Huh? We were specifically discussing accidental deaths as per the original topic, as I presume this was. Thus, the analogy was very valid; while doctors don't intend to kill their patients, many do, and while gun owners don't intend to accidentally kill their victims, some do.

    Quote Originally Posted by mikeylove
    Well, here's the thing about all those examples you provided.

    None of those things were created specifically for murder.

    Guns on the other hand were created for murder.
    In history, there have been many inventions which were later used in a way other than that which was originally intended. Its original reason for creation is irrelevant when we consider almost anything which we use every day; most of us use things in a different way than they were intended. For instance, the majority of us don't use knives and spears to kill buffalo; rather, we might use them to cut store-bought meat or participate in track-and-field events.

    Quote Originally Posted by mikeylove
    Let's think about this for a second.

    Back in the days when people did hunt for their own food, grocery stores were few and far between.

    Now, in this modern society we have, there is a grocery store in pretty much every town.

    Now with that being said, Why would someone waste money on bullets, gun powder, and whatever supplies are needed for hunting. When, not even all of their supplies are guarenteed to make a kill.

    Why would people invest all that money into merely opportunities to kill, when they could just as easily spend that money on food, and have a guarenteed meal on their table?
    Either way, isn't it the same thing? Farmers kill their livestock in controlled conditions but by more gruesome means. Hunters kill their food in, for the most part, uncontrolled conditions by less gruesome means. It all ends up as food on the table, the origins of said being immaterial.

    Quote Originally Posted by mikeylove
    It's glorified murder.
    This one just made me laugh.

    What are you talking about? Aside from the fact that our very inherent nature is to hunt and gather, many people still do this because they can. It's cheaper to hunt, if doing so is practical, than it is to shop at the supermarket for $5/pound beef; it's a hobby, just like fishing, playing chess, or surfing the Net; it is, philosophically, a good thing to actually understand the gravity of what you're doing when you simply grab your burger from McDonald's, nicely positioned in between vegetables and starches, and most people don't; it can help you a lot with self-defense: staying quiet and stealthy as well as hitting moving targets; it can be good exercise as you walk for hours and are sometimes forced to run after an injured animal; it helps you to understand the respect guns demand and their potential.

    These are just some of the ways hunting is beneficial. Do you think that we had supermarkets 40,000 years ago? I don't. You may make the argument that, "well, we have them now". Sure, we do, but what if people want to experience the satisfaction and pride that searching for and killing their own food evokes? It can be liberating, as well, knowing that you've actually done something and, in doing so, contributed to society, yourself, your family, and population control.

    So, let me ask you again: how is hunting glorified murder? Who is glorifying it, and how is it murder? Just to clarify the word's (murder) definition:

    The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice.
    Unless you're a cannibal, which I'm assuming you're not, what you said makes no sense.

    When you hunt, you're usually doing so for food. I don't approve of hunting for sport and not eating what you catch or kill.

    Quote Originally Posted by mikeylove
    Well, do you think the kid had something to gain by going out to watch his dad kill innocent animals?
    Sure: what I mentioned above.

    That aside, how is it good for anyone to remain naive and ignorant of the way they get their food?
    Last edited by SniperDevil; 06-03-2005 at 04:27 PM.

  37. I can picture a bunch of drunk adults playing with their guns while the kids are roaming around everywhere! People need to start taking responsibility for their actions!

  38. Originally posted by mikeylove
    None of those things were created specifically for murder.

    Guns on the other hand were created for murder.
    I use my gun nearly everyday, yet I do not use it to murder anyone or anything. However, I constantly go to places where people have been stabbed and killed or struck with a car. By that reasoning we'd say that knives were created specifically for murder, or cars for that matter. It's all in how you use it!

  39. #39
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Fairfax, Virginia
    Posts
    6,835
    Originally posted by FestiveHosting
    I can picture a bunch of drunk adults playing with their guns while the kids are roaming around everywhere! People need to start taking responsibility for their actions!
    Precisely; people do, guns don't.

  40. #40
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    The South
    Posts
    5,403
    Originally posted by adam
    I don't understand how you guys dont think that 4 years old is a bit to young to be learning how to use a gun...4 years old..come on now
    I don't understand how a responsible parent can let their kid NOT learn about guns.

    "If you do this" <points 38 at tree in backyard and pull trigger BOOM> "you can kill someone - so if you find a gun NEVER EVER EVER do this, LEAVE THE GUN ALONE and tell an adult, don't pick it up, don't move it, don't touch it"

    "see that squirrel? watch" <plink> dead squirrel "now see what this pellet rifle did to the squirrel?" <holds up dead squirrel for 4 year old to see, hole neatly through it's chest> "you never point a gun at something unless you are meaning to kill it, and you never even touch a gun unless I hand it to you"

    These are two lessons my 4 year old and I had in the backyard recently (I'm trying to thin the squirrel population they getting into the roof of our house, old houses + squirrels...). He knows to not pick up a gun, touch it, move it, or anything unless I hand it to him, he know if he IS given a gun it's not to be pointed at anything he doesn't absolutely mean to kill. He knows which end is the business end. These are 3 lessons you should teach a kid as soon as he's old enough to have the strength to pick up a gun.

    My pellet rifles sit by the back door (unloaded of course) more of a test than anything (my son isn't NEAR strong enough to **** them to shoot 'em). He's never touched them. He better not start.
    Gary Harris - the artist formerly known as Dixiesys
    resident grumpy redneck

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