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  1. #1
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    Arrow News :: 176,000 migrants seek work in Britain sicne expansion, 30 TIMES more.

    Article extract >> SOURCE : THE TIMES

    176,000 migrants from Eastern Europe seek jobs in first year
    By Richard Ford, Home Correspondent



    MORE than 170,000 people from Eastern Europe applied to work in Britain in the 11 months after the expansion of the European Union last year.



    Home Office research originally estimated that the figure would be between 5,000 and 13,000 a year.

    Barristers, circus performers and psychiatrists have all arrived in the country and found work since EU enlargement, according to Home Office figures published yesterday. The figures also indicate for the first time the extent of illegal working in Britain by people from the eight former Communist states that joined the EU in May 2004.

    The Home Office estimates that about 58,000 of those who have registered to work since last May were already in the country and it assumes that they were working illegally. A total of 176,000 citizens of the eight states registered for work between last May and the end of March, with 40,000 registering in the first three months of this year alone.

    The government report said that the immigrants were making very few demands on public services such as the NHS, benefits system or education. The number applying for benefits was very low, it said, with 1,200 applications for Income support, jobseeker’s Allowance or state pension credit in the first 11 months after EU expansion, only 24 of which were allowed to go ahead to the next stage for consideration.

    In the same period there were 8,148 applications for child benefit, of which 44 per cent were approved. In all, 43 arrivals from the Eastern European countries were given council housing and 216 were given homelessness assistance.

    Applications have fallen from their peak in the summer of last year to an average of between 13,000 and 14,000 a month currently.

    Almost 100,000 Poles registered for work, followed by 26,000 Lithuanians, 18,500 Slovaks, and 12,000 Latvians. People from Slovenia were bottom of the registration list, with only 220. More than half of those registering for work are from Poland and one fifth of all registered workers are based in London.

    The Home Office statistics show that more than 2,500 registered as bus, lorry and coach drivers; 3,900 as careworkers. Among professionals, 485 registered as teachers, researchers and classroom assistants, and more than 200 as GPs, hospital doctors, nurses and specialists.

    Administration and business attracted 44,000, the hospitality and catering industry 42,000 and agriculture 20,000. Five thousand are farm-workers, 3,100 building labourers, 3,900 care assistants, 8,000 kitchen assistants and 27,000 factory workers.

    Among those registered to work are five actors and a similar number of authors, circus performers, circus riggers, barristers and psychiatrists.

    Tony McNulty, the Immigration Minister, said that the immigrants were continuing to take hard-to-fill jobs. He said: “Workers are contributing to our economy, paying tax and national insurance and filling key jobs in areas where there are gaps. We estimate registered workers contributed approximately £500 million to the UK economy between May 2004 and March 2005.”

    Last May the Czech Republic, Hungary, Poland, Slovenia, Slovakia, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Cyprus and Malta joined the EU. The figures relate to the eight East European states. Eight out of ten workers were aged between 18 and 34, and just 5 per cent registered dependants, such as spouses or children. The report showed that 96 per cent were working full time and 80 per cent were earning £4.50 to £5 an hour.

    It also showed that the popularity of London was declining. In May and June last year 26 per cent of new arrivals registered to work in the capital but in the first three months of this year the proportion had fallen to 17 per cent.

    End extract <<

    Full article, no link.

    Hardly unexpected with this governments's incompetence in the area. There must be actions taken to stop this and soon!

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  3. #3
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    Originally posted by JHosts
    Or the goverment could start heavily supporting new business growth so all these jobs can be taken up with their economy remaining strong.
    That is in my view a very short sighted approach and only stores up even greater problems for the country and us as a people further down the line.

    Linked to the Green Belt thread i've launched for instance.

    The economy in the here and now isn't eveything, if we act like it is or that enouraging solutions infrom abroad is the way out without considering the concequences.

    Housing, Infrastructure, Envirnoment, Financial Cost, Community Relations e.t.c. You can't ignroe these things so lightly.

    The governent either knowingly mislead the public or was just incompetent. Neithe are good and acceptable situations are they?

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    At least it seems they're finally being documented. I heard on the news here in the US the they have over 10 million 'missing' illegal aliens - which I presume many are finding work somewhere.

    As a documented alien (green card with a SSN) I'd love to see those clowns kicked out, given the work invloved in legally immigrating.

    I've seen reports on what happens to people when they claim 'refugee status' in the UK and, quite frankly, the UK deserves what they get given the half-assed approach they use.
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  5. #5
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    * Re: News :: 176,000 migrants seek work in Britain sicne expansion, 30 TIMES more.

    Originally posted by Critic
    Hardly unexpected with this governments's incompetence in the area. There must be actions taken to stop this and soon!

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    stop what exactly? stop people from coming here and taking the jobs that nobody wants? stop people from coming here and taking the jobs nobody can do? or i should say replace the skilled workers we lack. i could well take a snipe at the previous tory government here and rant on about their incompetence in education and training in the past, but i wont

    the UK needs these workers, if you want to be working into your 70s feel free to oppose perfectly legitimate economic migration
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    The problem exists in the US too. Taking an approach that the government turns a blind eye to illegal work under the guise that 'no-one else will do it'.

    I think you'll be suprised to learn that people 'will' do that work if proper programs are in place - if the focus is on them, and efforts are made by those in power.

    Before I hear the 'rubbish' excuses, I point you at Australia, and how it's not an issue there.
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  7. #7
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    Arrow

    Originally posted by akashik
    The problem exists in the US too. Taking an approach that the government turns a blind eye to illegal work under the guise that 'no-one else will do it'.

    I think you'll be suprised to learn that people 'will' do that work if proper programs are in place - if the focus is on them, and efforts are made by those in power.
    the only reason alot of immigration had limits applied was to satisfy the xenophobes that believed that their jobs, homes etc etc were being stolen by johnny foreigner.

    in the UK the conservative goverment put thousands of able workers on disability benefits in order to fiddle the unemployment figures.

    let's not forget that thousands of brits are able to sit around at home and do nothing and make more money than any of these immigrants, legal or otherwise.

    i do agree that the current residents of this country could do the jobs, but politicians never seem to think much longer than their term in government.

    we're an aging nation, we're going to have a serious pension shortfall and the NHS will have a continually increasing burden on it. at the end of the day we need all the immigrants we can get, otherwise they'll have to start euthanising us in order to give us some dignity in our old age
    <erno> hm. I've lost a machine.. literally _lost_. it responds to ping, it works completely, I just can't figure out where in my apartment it is.

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    no wonder im finding it hard to find a job lol

  9. #9
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    If more businesses were built, then more jobs would be available, and more money would be distributed. Of course with more people making money, more houses/apartments will be needed, so more real estate businesses will need to open, more construction companies, and more and more jobs will be necessary. And the government investment put into helping these new businesses, will be paid back in due time, come tax day Also less illegal immigrants would come, because of the availability of jobs.

  10. #10
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    There's never been a time in Britain where there hasn't been immigration, before the Romans even it was happening.
    This new set of immigrants are providing the skills that we are severly lacking + the ones without the skills often take the jobs that British people don't want to do.
    They do a job, they pay taxes, they contribute to the economy + they contribute to society, bring new thinking, new lifestyles, new foods, etc. As a country we depend on them at least in the short term. If the government was to do something about British unemployment (which could also be integrated to tackle the housing problem - get unemployed people building for example) then we may not be so dependent on the unskilled work. But then the government would probably have to remove tuition fees at universities to tackle the lack of skilled workers, although that alone would still not make up the difference and we'd still need imigrant workers.
    Poland has recently contributed a huge amount to our NHS with doctors, nurses + dentists (lets not forget the huge lack of them, one kid almost died because he couldn't have a tooth taken out + it swelled to the point where he couldn't breathe all because he couldn't find an NHS dentist) and I really don't know how we would cope without them.
    Personally I think that a lot of the anti-immigration opinions stem from an lack of knowledge of how much these people contribute to our society. The conservatives just tried to exploit people's fear of change and didn't highlight the fact that we really need these workers, probably because howard is too busy trying to hide the fact that he himself descends from immigrants. What a hypocrit.

  11. #11
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    I think some of you really do need to look beyond things like the economy and meeting short term needs.

    Here are a list of points i think you are forgetting:

    - Britain is the most densely populated country in all of Europe.
    - When i say that housing is a problem, i don't mean that we need more, i mean that we're being iresponsible with our expansion plans now. We can barely meet the demads of the people already living here, inviting an unsustainable and unnecessary wave or more purely economic migrants will harm us greatly in the future.
    - We not only have to house them but school their children and heal them and support in other ways that a nation does to its people in years to come. This will cost money, land and other resources.
    - The pension crisis will deepen even more.
    - Where we live is called the British Isles for a reason, we're a group of islands, and as such should be able to be more pro active when it comes to protecting our borders.
    - I don't buy this "British" people don't or won't do these jobs line that is put out. We merely need a change in culture for a younger and older generations. People will do them, it is only a matter of need, approach and encouragement. We have to become more self sustaining as a nation IMO.


    It's not abour fear or ignorance or race, it's about all of those thigns and looking after who is here now and the envirnonment with which we must coexits. So if any of the first two terms applies to anyone in my view, it is thsoe who support and see no problem with what we have now.

    There needs to be a quota system established, a cap on numbers per year in proportion to the amount that leave the British Isles.

    If i've forgotten anything i'll probably post it again when i realise.

    So, are you forgetting all of that?? You peo0ple who think the current system is ok??

    thanks

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  12. #12
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    Originally posted by Critic
    I think some of you really do need to look beyond things like the economy and meeting short term needs...
    ...it's about all of those things and looking after who is here now and the envirnonment with which we must coexits.
    Sounds like a contradiction right there, you want to look after the people that we have now, is that not a short term need?

    Britain is the most densely populated country in all of Europe.
    Its also the best! Maybe all the integration is a good thing. Think about your roots, the majority of people in the country have ancestry from all over europe.

    We not only have to house them but school their children and heal them and support in other ways that a nation does to its people in years to come. This will cost money, land and other resources.
    Thats what taxes are for, if they earn money, they pay taxes which help to pay for these things. They aren't sponging, they're paying their way and in turn contributing to our economy and society. They also spend money in our shops occasionally

    When i say that housing is a problem, i don't mean that we need more, i mean that we're being iresponsible with our expansion plans now. We can barely meet the demads of the people already living here, inviting an unsustainable and unnecessary wave or more purely economic migrants will harm us greatly in the future...We have to become more self sustaining as a nation IMO
    Unnecessary? They are necessary, thats why we have them.
    Besides we can always build on top of the land that isn't being used by all the hunts
    If all the economic immigrants became british citizens then maybe we could become more self sustaining, would you have a problem with them all becoming british? That way it would be british people doing the work and british people supporting british people. It would be a nice thought to be self sustaining but the numbers don't add up, the major problem is our ageing society, we don't have enough skilled workers, thats a long term problem. Its also probably the most important problem...
    ...imagine if you had a car accident, there wasn't an ambulance to take you to the hospital because we didn't have enough paramedics, all the doctors or nurses were busy with other patients - our NHS is understaffed as it is, it is hugely reliant on immigrants, and although it would be bad if we were removing some rare flower from its natural habitat + building a house there instead but I'd feel a lot worse if I died in the corridor of some hospital because we didn't have any skilled workers to treat me.
    Historically the immigration issue raises its head every few years, one of the major reasons its raising its head now is due a sharp rise of facism in this country, the government is now looking at ways to clamp down on immigration to tackle the extremists like the BNP. Immigration has made Britain what it is today, Great Britain! Historically we have always had immigration and historically we have always managed to cope with immigration and gained from immigration, I don't see why this should be any different especially as we are now more advanced as a society (also historically when there has been a mass exodus of immigrants our progression as a country has been halted by a few hundred years).
    Another thing to keep in mind is that these immigrants are coming from the EU, we are a member of the EU and although some people would like to be removed from the EU, if you look into the matter to leave the EU would be economic suicide and the state of the economy is really what effects everything else - healthcare, education, and even the environment.
    Last edited by sandanista; 05-28-2005 at 07:54 PM.

  13. #13
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    Ok, i did forget something and it's a fairly curicial thing at that.

    What gives us the right to take all this talent away from other developing countries?

    This was raised last week with International Organisations telling some of the world's leading nations in the G8 to stop or drastically reduce the "brain drain" that they force upon other nations to meet their own needs. This particularly applies to the NHS in Britain.

    Originally posted by sandanista
    Sounds like a contradiction right there, you want to look after the people that we have now, is that not a short term need?



    Its also the best! Maybe all the integration is a good thing. Think about your roots, the majority of people in the country have ancestry from all over europe.



    Thats what taxes are for, if they earn money, they pay taxes which help to pay for these things. They aren't sponging, they're paying their way and in turn contributing to our economy and society. They also spend money in our shops occasionally



    Unnecessary? They are necessary, thats why we have them.
    Besides we can always build on top of the land that isn't being used by all the hunts
    If all the economic immigrants became british citizens then maybe we could become more self sustaining, would you have a problem with them all becoming british? That way it would be british people doing the work and british people supporting british people. It would be a nice thought to be self sustaining but the numbers don't add up, the major problem is our ageing society, we don't have enough skilled workers, thats a long term problem. Its also probably the most important problem...
    ...imagine if you had a car accident, there wasn't an ambulance to take you to the hospital because we didn't have enough paramedics, all the doctors or nurses were busy with other patients - our NHS is understaffed as it is, it is hugely reliant on immigrants, and although it would be bad if we were removing some rare flower from its natural habitat + building a house there instead but I'd feel a lot worse if I died in the corridor of some hospital because we didn't have any skilled workers to treat me.
    Historically the immigration issue raises its head every few years, one of the major reasons its raising its head now is due a sharp rise of facism in this country, the government is now looking at ways to clamp down on immigration to tackle the extremists like the BNP. Immigration has made Britain what it is today, Great Britain! Historically we have always had immigration and historically we have always managed to cope with immigration and gained from immigration, I don't see why this should be any different especially as we are now more advanced as a society (also historically when there has been a mass exodus of immigrants our progression as a country has been halted by a few hundred years).
    Another thing to keep in mind is that these immigrants are coming from the EU, we are a member of the EU and although some people would like to be removed from the EU, if you look into the matter to leave the EU would be economic suicide and the state of the economy is really what effects everything else - healthcare, education, and even the environment.
    No contradiction at all, you jsut don't seem to get it.

    We currently have a population of around 60 million people and it will wise wll enough with the current settled population. IMO, the British Isles should not have a population too much more than what it ahs right now. If we followed your approach we'd have a population of 100 million in not too many decades time and it would still be rising.

    What ireversible damage would the pressure of such numbers cause to the country. I daren't not think of the impact. Do we really want a world like that in the movie "Fifth Element"?

    You said it yourself, we have an ageing population, well all these people you're bringing in are going to get old and require pensions and other suport aren't they? Weill this not just make the problem even worse? For the NHS, for the Transport system, the Envirnoment and so on???

    Yes historically there have been some migations to these islands but at those times they could be absorbed and sustained by the country around them. This is no longer so if we want to maintian the balance we currently have. And i would contest the fact that most British people have roots all over Europe. There were more than a million people living here in the Iron Age and leading up to the second Roman Invasion, that is the base of our population. Slightly offtopic but had to be said i'm afraid.

    I don't know where your roots lie but regardless, if you think we can just concrete over everything to meet an economic need, think again.

    We have all these people becasue they came here and the government made a **** up and didn't prepare appropirately when the EU expanded. They are here because successive government's have failed to modify the labour market here at home to meet many of our shortages. Unless they can teel me that we have ZERO unemployment, then they're not utilising all the resources in people in Britain. People will have to work for a bit longer and maybe some should start working sooner. We could fill a lot of the shortages if some of those in their mid to late teens and early twenty's did the labour. Wouldn't be forced into it but made worth their while.

    Of course we requrie some people but there has tt be a yearly quota and plans made for the future in that regard. Do you not at least agree with that? A quote in proportion with the numbers leaging the country and specific labour shortages that cannot be met at home.

    Taxation alone cannot foot the bill, your reality would rqquire dozens of major motorway expansion projects and train lines and airports. Scores of new hospitals and schools a near doubling in energy requirements nationwide. New towns and cities springing up all over the place. Do you not think of the impact this have and the people needed to support it all. The cost would be on a magnitude unimagined, the ransom of all the King's and Queen's and Chief's of these isladns gong back millennia. You can interprete the word "cost" in that sentence in every sense of the word.

    Now i might be misjudging you but to me right now, you seem to care more about £££'s and not truely about Great Britain in all its forms.

    If you really beleive that the subject of "immigration" is mainly home to the BNP and facists, you're making a big mistake. One that others have in the past and continute to do so now.

    What you propose is and endless cycle causing ever greater damange along the way. More people, more infrastructure, more migrants and mroe damage.Then it just loops constantly.

    Oh adn as to the EU, looks like we disagree on that one too when it comes to your comment. Although that will be made clearer alte on today with theFrench referendum.

    I think you would be interested in the other thread i launched yesterday on the increasing threat to Green Belt land. Might not agree with my point of view however but interesting nonehteless. See :: http://www.webhostingtalk.com/showth...hreadid=409439

    Critic,
    Last edited by Critic; 05-28-2005 at 09:51 PM.
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  14. #14
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    Originally posted by Critic What gives us the right to take all this talent away from other developing countries?
    Nothing gives us that right and its a major problem, and it is really unfair on developing countries, we ruined their country either through colonialism or by starting/propagating wars to boost our arms trade. People are coming over here for a better life, if we helped their countries/ at least stopped ruining them there might not be so many - this doesn't apply as much to the EU countries.

    You said it yourself, we have an ageing population, well all these people you're bringing in are going to get old and require pensions and other suport aren't they?
    The economic immigrants are of working age, they pay into the pension pot, how else are we going to pay for it? We can either get rid of the old people (kill them off, ship them to australia, or something like that) or bring in younger people to pay for them.

    Weill this not just make the problem even worse? For the NHS, for the Transport system, the Envirnoment and so on???
    I do accept that it will cause a short term strain on public services, but in the long term we will adapt and these people will pay for themselves. Britain can easily adapt, its not as if we are a third world country with 10million refugees on our hands. They are coming here to work, they pay their taxes and they spend money. Try thinking of it as 176,000 new customers. They generally have a much higher work ethic than a lot of British people because of their backgrounds.
    As I work in the healthcare services I am fully aware of the contribution these people have made already, we don't have enough staff and people who have recently immigrated from the new EU states are making a huge difference. Because we pay better we can attract a better quality of worker. We have heads of regional healthcare in poland just being regular GP's. They have a huge amount of experience, much more than the doctors that are coming out of our system. We have a huge shortage of dentists and they have already provided us with more dentists. Nurses are also a major contribution. If you look at voting issues, the NHS is always top, its what matters to people the most and if you look at the figures the new economic immigrants have had a huge positive impact, not a negative one.

    Yes historically there have been some migations to these islands but at those times they could be absorbed and sustained by the country around them. This is no longer so if we want to maintian the balance we currently have. And i would contest the fact that most British people have roots all over Europe. There were more than a million people living here in the Iron Age and leading up to the second Roman Invasion, that is the base of our population. Slightly offtopic but had to be said i'm afraid.
    As the romans were here for hundreds of years and so were the saxons, the normans the vikings etc. they did manage to integrate (ie, marry native Brits) I've studied British history from the before the bronze age to modern day + I don't really agree with you on this one, but its off topic so I'll leave it at that.

    People will have to work for a bit longer and maybe some should start working sooner.
    We would actually cut unemployment if people stayed in school longer.

    Taxation alone cannot foot the bill, your reality would rqquire dozens of major motorway expansion projects and train lines and airports. Scores of new hospitals and schools a near doubling in energy requirements nationwide. New towns and cities springing up all over the place. Do you not think of the impact this have and the people needed to support it all. The cost would be on a magnitude unimagined, the ransom of all the King's and Queen's and Chief's of these isladns gong back millennia. You can interprete the word "cost" in that sentence in every sense of the word.
    Taxation alone can't foot the bill but they also spend money in our economy and help generate new business. New building projects would help with unemployment, it would generate jobs for more people, these people also get taxed and they also spend money.
    Were talking about a few hundred thousand working people with skills that we don't have or who are prepared to do jobs that we won't do. Face it, a lot of British people would rather sit on the dole than scrub toilets.

    Now i might be misjudging you but to me right now, you seem to care more about £££'s and not truely about Great Britain in all its forms.
    I believe that Great Britain in all its forms is a multicultural society and a hard working world leading country. If these people are coming here to work, pay taxes and spend money then whats the problem with that? You seem to care a lot about the environment, but if the economy wasn't in shape do you really think that anyone would give a damn about the environment? They'd be too concerned about getting food on the table. They are helping the economy in the long run which helps fund environmental projects.
    Although I am concerned about the environment I do believe in a thing called progress. Similar arguments were made against immigration 50 years ago and look how we've progressed since, economic immigrants have helped us do this. And Britain's favourite food is now curry brought here by economic immigrants, the new immigrants could have lots of things to share with us, I think we should embrace it, thats what I believe Britain is about.

    If you really beleive that the subject of "immigration" is mainly home to the BNP and facists, you're making a big mistake. One that others have in the past and continute to do so now.
    Its not just these people, but they do play on people's fears and they do have an impact on voting - just look at how the conservatives have capitalised on this. I'm saying that the main political parties (who don't want the nation to turn into a Nazi state) see the need to tackle these elements which is why they are coming down harder on immigration now.

    Oh adn as to the EU, looks like we disagree on that one too when it comes to your comment. Although that will be made clearer alte on today with theFrench referendum.
    I'm against a united states of europe and I'm against the Britain joining the euro. Although if you look at the Euro in detail it actually would be beneficial economically, not detrimental as it at first appears (with our economy having to help the poorer states). I believe that we need to keep some soverienty. Removal of Britain from the EU although saving millions in the short term would cost us billions in trade agreements.

    I think you would be interested in the other thread i launched yesterday on the increasing threat to Green Belt land. Might not agree with my point of view however but interesting nonehteless...Unless they can teel me that we have ZERO unemployment, then they're not utilising all the resources in people in Britain.
    I have seen this thread but I don't have enough time to comment on it or this thread any more so I'll end the argument with this... You seem to want Britain to be self sustainable. Even with everyone employed we would probably still rely on trade to other countries very heavily. What we could really do with is fair trade, then other countries would be richer and people wouldn't want to leave and come to Britain. Remember, witha lot of these countries British people can also leave to go there, but we tend not to as our standard of living is better in Britain. We need to tackle the underlying causes, a lot of which we caused in the first place, if you want to cut immigration. Putting a limit on the people coming in isn't the solution. Firstly it would require a limit on the non-economic immgrants first, and thats were things first get complicated, but the issue of asylum is another topic.
    I come from a rural community so things like the environment are important to me, but not more important that healthcare and the economic immigrants are making a huge contribution to the NHS.
    Now I may be misjudging you in saying that you are a conservative voter, and I hope that you will accept that what would reduce immigration if people didn't want to leave their country + come here or if more British people left to go to their country. The conservative party has no real plans for helping other countries. To get all the people of Britain working - utilising the full resources of this country we would need to tackle the underlying causes of unemployment, poverty, and depression. The conservatives are so far off the mark on this one. Unfortunately the only party that comes close to beginning to tackle these problems is labour, + I'm not a labour voter. As for building new infrastructure, this would help unemployment in the short term, which although not a lasting solution, isn't necessarily a bad thing.

    I'm leaving this thread now, but I hope that you will look more into the history and the facts surrounding immigration. I think as we are Great Britain after all we can adapt and cope to the situation and benefit from it.

  15. #15
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    * the UK needs immigrants

    Originally posted by Critic
    I think some of you really do need to look beyond things like the economy and meeting short term needs.

    Here are a list of points i think you are forgetting:

    - Britain is the most densely populated country in all of Europe.
    no it's not. that would be the netherlands, not including monaco of course .
    Originally posted by Critic
    - When i say that housing is a problem, i don't mean that we need more, i mean that we're being iresponsible with our expansion plans now. We can barely meet the demads of the people already living here, inviting an unsustainable and unnecessary wave or more purely economic migrants will harm us greatly in the future.
    sorry that's rubbish, the reason why there's a housing shortage is because more and more people want to live alone, where previously one property would have been fine for 5 people, we now need 5 properties. don't blame the immigrants, if anything i've seen them take single properties and convert them into two and then get as many in both as possible.
    Originally posted by Critic
    - We not only have to house them but school their children and heal them and support in other ways that a nation does to its people in years to come. This will cost money, land and other resources.
    i really don't understand why you've posted this, if they're here, if they're earning money, if they're eating, drinking, renting etc then they're already contributing to the british economy. by that line of thinking should we stop growing? no more children as they cost resources? want to turn the UK in to a parody of Logan's run?
    Originally posted by Critic
    - The pension crisis will deepen even more.
    really? how? if these people are illegal and earning money and therefore spending it, they wont be on the system so they wont be getting a state pension. we'll have more money. and they can't be getting benefits either because again they're illegal. if they're legal then you can't really complain.
    Originally posted by Critic
    - Where we live is called the British Isles for a reason, we're a group of islands, and as such should be able to be more pro active when it comes to protecting our borders.
    here's a good idea, why don't we get all those unemplyed people to stop the illegals from getting in two birds with one stone.
    Originally posted by Critic
    - I don't buy this "British" people don't or won't do these jobs line that is put out. We merely need a change in culture for a younger and older generations. People will do them, it is only a matter of need, approach and encouragement. We have to become more self sustaining as a nation IMO.
    i don't believe that any nation can be entirely self sustaining, after all the boundaries that seperate us are politically defined. it's going to take a very long time and an enourmous amount of money to train enough doctors, nurses, plumbers, electricians and so on, all the services the UK currently lacks. so why should we spend all that time and effort when we can get economic immigrants to do that work right now?
    Originally posted by Critic
    It's not abour fear or ignorance or race, it's about all of those thigns and looking after who is here now and the envirnonment with which we must coexits. So if any of the first two terms applies to anyone in my view, it is thsoe who support and see no problem with what we have now.
    i'm afraid it is about ignorance of that much i can be sure, you haven't stated any facts that are true, you don't understand basic economics, you believe that this country can be self sustaining which is absoloute bull considering our population size, dietary requirements, land area and population density
    Originally posted by Critic
    There needs to be a quota system established, a cap on numbers per year in proportion to the amount that leave the British Isles.
    i'll be one of the first people to admit the current system is far from perfect. we do have a problem with economic immigrants posing as asylum seekers but my guess is they're only doing that because of the limits we apply on economic migration. im pretty certain that the bogus asylum seekers that get caught cost the tax payer far more than those who don't. not that i condone illegal entry and illegal emplyment, but at the end of the day they really are doing the jobs we don't want. if you don't believe that, it's because you haven't experienced it first hand like me.

    Originally posted by Critic
    So, are you forgetting all of that?? You peo0ple who think the current system is ok??
    thanks
    Critic,
    i don't think the current system is ok, i just don't like the paranoia people throw up on this subject.
    <erno> hm. I've lost a machine.. literally _lost_. it responds to ping, it works completely, I just can't figure out where in my apartment it is.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Location
    London, Britannia.
    Posts
    3,077
    sandamista, i respect your point of view and agree with the logic behind some of your points. There aer some minor details that you've said which are slightly inaccurate when compared to what i said but you got the mian hrist of my points pretty much. It is apparent that you and i have if not totally differing concerns, differ on how important certain issue and the impcat they will have and on what scale.

    I thank you for your replies but i will say one final thing concerning the immigration debate, i have no problem with us aiding genuine refugees and in large numbers if need be. As to economic migrants though,it is not where they come from that is my concern buy how numerous they are. We canno be entirely self sustaining but we can make some progress in this regard.

    ALGORYTHM, i thin you got ht epoint on population density well enough, it is a fact you cannot deny, and i will have to take up your claim with the new radio station where that fact was fired off.

    Other than that, i think that what i said to sandamista also applies to you. All to do with how concerned we are about certian issue and the possible outcome. It is very unlikely that either of us would be persuaed to change theri minds on the issue as things stand, it is very polarising.

    This won't be the last time such a thread is discussed onWHT, ir is a recurring topic and more so in the present climate it would appear.

    Critic,
    The 9 words of life quote -
    "Act with honour, seek justice, die true, remembered well."
    GO LDN 2012 ~ AIM = Critic News Info

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