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  1. #1
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    Talking Oh no, the Military has done it again

    Decided to use google's ig system and guess whats the first headline in BBC:

    Karzai shock at US Afghan 'abuse'

    Quote Originally Posted by BBC
    Mr Karzai said he was shocked and would raise the issue with President George W Bush when he meets him next week.

    The soldiers involved in the deaths of two inmates and alleged abuse of others should be punished, Mr Karzai said.
    Full article

    I dont know, but I think something is wrong with the Military these days!

    Peace,
    Testing 1.. Testing 1..2.. Testing 1..2..3...

  2. #2
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    These days?

    Throughout history there has always been such actions. We just hear more about it now because of the media.

  3. #3
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    Originally posted by rackcheck
    These days?

    Throughout history there has always been such actions. We just hear more about it now because of the media.
    Totaly agree.

    Media is more widespread. I think we need militant reporters that don't exagerate. Then again, the whole story might not come out.

    It's a lose/lose situation.

  4. #4
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    Re: Oh no, the Military has done it again

    Originally posted by azizny
    . . . I dont know, but I think something is wrong with the Military these days!
    I don't think you can broadly class this as something being wrong with the military. The US has 150,000 troops over there (I think?) and there's bound to be some bad apples amongst that. It's up to the "Military" to weed them out, and hold those individuals accountable for their disgraceful actions.
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  5. #5
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  6. #6
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    I don't know, I think there is something wrong with men these days.
    If you have any population of more than 1000 people, you're always going to run across some that don't obey the rules.
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  7. #7
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    Re: Re: Oh no, the Military has done it again

    Originally posted by Aussie Bob
    I don't think you can broadly class this as something being wrong with the military. The US has 150,000 troops over there (I think?) and there's bound to be some bad apples amongst that. It's up to the "Military" to weed them out, and hold those individuals accountable for their disgraceful actions.

    I agree.. its like saying because of a few bad apples in this world.. there is something wrong with humanity.. well maybe so LOL

    Its only a few amount of people.. it happend, its happening now, and it will always happen.

    You can't train the military to be killers, then expect them to be angels. Why do you think a lot of military folk have a really hard time adjusting back to the "American Life"? Its a huge mind shock!
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  8. #8
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    Originally posted by Take-IT-EZZI
    Anyone ever bother to mention the fact that the military prosecutes soldiers who act outside its policies?
    This is very true.
    But if an american soldier commits a crime against an afghan, shouldn't they serve time in a jail in afghanistan?
    There is something wrong with humanity that this keeps happening.
    Last edited by sandanista; 05-23-2005 at 07:16 PM.

  9. #9
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    Originally posted by sandanista
    This is very true.
    But if an american soldier commits a crime against an afghan, shouldn't they serve time in a jail in afghanistan?
    There is something wrong with humanity that this keeps happening.
    Yeah, there is something wrong with humanity - if you read history it has been going on for millenia. People who believe in the "progress of mankind" ignore that men generally have very corrupt natures. Problem is that people don't have big red signs on their foreheads that warn us who the scumbags are.

    Depends on the country. There are cases where U.S. military personnel will serve prison time in the country in which the crime was committed. In this case, I think the Afghans may agree to let the military prosecute its own war criminals.
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  10. #10
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    Re: Oh no, the Military has done it again

    Originally posted by azizny

    I dont know, but I think something is wrong with the Military these days!

    Peace,
    There are always some "bad apples" in any large group. The problem is that the media always reports the negative and rarely the positive. There are many thousands of troops there, the overwhelming majority doing their jobs properly and helping the Afghan people, those don't make the news.
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  11. #11
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    Re: Re: Oh no, the Military has done it again

    Originally posted by Aussie Bob
    I don't think you can broadly class this as something being wrong with the military. The US has 150,000 troops over there (I think?) and there's bound to be some bad apples amongst that. It's up to the "Military" to weed them out, and hold those individuals accountable for their disgraceful actions.
    Yes, you can class this as something wrong with the military.

    You have pretty low standards if you go by the "bound to be some bad apples" logic... and these are not just simply "disgraceful actions' but are much much more serious.

    The actions in the military come down from the top and can be traced through a chain of command. You can't weed out the bad apples as it comes straight from Bush himself...
    (a) Either he issued the orders
    (b) He approved of the orders
    (c) He knows of the orders
    (d) He has no clue what his men are doing

    ^^^ If you choose any one of those, the boss has to always take the blame...

    PS: (d) would be the worse option!
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  12. #12
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    Wow HOST78. I've been in the military for 15 years and in one post you opened my eyes to the way things really are.

    How about this for an option:

    (e) clear orders are disobeyed

    No, no. Can't be that. It wouldn't fit with your vitriol. Please don't let facts and patterns cause you to modify your deeply held hatred.
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  13. #13
    DevilDog, Thank you for your service.
    Glenn

    Originally posted by DevilDog
    Wow HOST78. I've been in the military for 15 years and in one post you opened my eyes to the way things really are.

    How about this for an option:

    (e) clear orders are disobeyed

    No, no. Can't be that. It wouldn't fit with your vitriol. Please don't let facts and patterns cause you to modify your deeply held hatred.
    Don't you walk thru my words
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    Don't you walk thru my words
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  14. #14
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    DevilDog, thanks for your dedication and service! Also thanks for providing option "E". It remarkable how the most likely answer is the one that people would rather ignore.
    "Arms discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property... Horrid mischief would ensue were the law-abiding deprived of the use of them." - Thomas Paine

  15. #15
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    Originally posted by DevilDog
    Wow HOST78. I've been in the military for 15 years and in one post you opened my eyes to the way things really are.

    How about this for an option:

    (e) clear orders are disobeyed

    No, no. Can't be that. It wouldn't fit with your vitriol. Please don't let facts and patterns cause you to modify your deeply held hatred.
    DevilDog, I'm not here to argue, and yes I see your POV and agree to it to a certain extent.

    Orders are disobeyed on a daily basis, however, how can supervisors allow the same mistakes to happen over and over? In business, when the same mistakes keep on happening, you don't fire the employees, you fire the supervisor...

    It's a double-edged sword. The US wants it's POW/hostages/etc to be treated a certain way, yet they aren't willing to return the favour...

    Straight from the dog's mouth - "The US military initially said there was no indication of abuse in the two men's deaths and that interrogation techniques were methods that were "generally accepted"

    Straight from the article - "Dilawar, 22, was said to have been chained to a ceiling by his wrists for four days, and then beaten on his legs more than 100 times during a 24-hour period. He was being questioned about an attack on a US air base, but the report says most interrogators believed him to be an innocent taxi driver who simply drove past at the time of the attack."

    Oh wait... orders were not disobeyed. The US military condones this type of treatment as per their own admission...

    PS: DevilDog, please try to stay civil - I am stating the facts as I see them, and god forbid that we have differing opinions... you state that I have "hatred" and I state that you are "overzealous" but that leads us no where...
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  16. #16
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    I find it a bit ironic that you are asking me to be civil when you base your entire argument on the fact that there is a chain of command condoning torture of prisoners. You then go on to say that the U.S. Military condoned the type of treatment. I'll tell you what, you want me to remain civil then do you dang homework and don't presume to understand an institution you know nothing about except what the New York Times or the BBC reports to you. You then draw sweeping conclusions about hundreds of thousands of Officers without even basic knowledge about military structure or the "way things really are."

    I know it is popular to try and find a nexus between some research into Geneva Convention standards and whether they apply to terrorists. The issue is not so clear cut as to who the standards apply to. Nevertheless, there has never been any policy that condoned the torture and killing of any detainees. Of course, some people have very loose standards of what constitutes torture. In this case, it was very clear.

    You see, you draw radical conclusions out of a basic ignorance of military chain of command and so you make the strained connections that the left typically makes without understanding the nature of the organization (i.e. the Military) that they seek to make culpable across the board in such circumstances.

    There is no policy that can contravene an Officer's Oath of Office to protect and defend the Constitution. "The president made me do it..." is not a valid defense which, in many ways, made Kerry's claim that he participated in war crimes himself to be reprehensible barring the argument that war crimes were ever condoned as policy during the Johnson or Nixon administrations.

    Professional military people know what is and is not permissible regardless of administration and will no more obey an order to torture and kill in violation of the law of war if a Republican administration or Democratic administration sets, as policy, that we are supposed to commit war crimes as a matter of fact.

    Should a commander be relieved and punished if it is shown they were complicit in the acts of their subordinates? Absolutely. Should a commander be relieved and punished if it is shown that they failed to properly supervise their people? Absolutely and, in fact, that is what made BGen Karpinski's whining "...it wasn't my fault..." so disgusting to many of us who wear the uniform and have had responsiblity for leadership. I'm very glad she got demoted. She doesn't even deserve to wear the rank of Colonel.

    As is typical, however, of some sort of strained logic, people see poor leadership in certain places and extend it all the way up the chain of command and blame the President for the supervision of a unit that he has no direct control over. Should higher-ups potentially be punished for such breaches of the law of war? Potentially but, at some point, there has to be some basis for assigning responsibility other than the wild ideas of people with a political axe to grind that are certain that all roads lead to the White House. It is simply absurd when you actually look at how it all comes about.

    The fact is that "bad apples" do exist. Without good NCO supervision, 18-19 year old kids act in the same immature way that college students do except when they go to far, those who lack a moral compass, do some horrific things. Without good Officer leadership at the small unit level, NCO's are not held to high standards to keep the 18-19 year old kids from acting like children. Without good Company Grade leadership, platoon commanders are not mentored to set high standards to keep a unit disciplined. Without good senior officers, a command climate is not set that ... you get the point. There are places along the chain that fail and it is not always a break in the uppermost point that is causing the failure. It is only those who cannot see beyond their (yes I will call it what it is) blind hatred or ire that think that all evil things that happen are the result of the administration they so despise. I, for one, am fed up with the crummy logic and those who say "Oh, I support the troops" but "Gosh, there is something wrong with them" and "They'll do anything Bush tells them to, even violate the laws of war and the standards of humanity."

    Thanks for the "support" but I'd just prefer you educate yourself a little more before you claim to know what the military actually supports. Heaven forbid you quote actual policy instead of some media source.
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  17. #17
    Good response DevilDog. Well put!
    Don't you walk thru my words
    You got to show some respect
    Don't you walk thru my words
    'Cause you ain't heard me out yet

  18. #18
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    If a US soldier went to jail in Afghan they probably wont make it back. BTW good job to the soldiers in Afghan and Iraq. Your making the world a safer place, and dont let people bring you down!

  19. #19
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    Originally posted by DevilDog
    I find it a bit ironic that you are asking me to be civil when you base your entire argument on the fact that there is a chain of command condoning torture of prisoners. You then go on to say that the U.S. Military condoned the type of treatment. I'll tell you what, you want me to remain civil then do you dang homework and don't presume to understand an institution you know nothing about except what the New York Times or the BBC reports to you. You then draw sweeping conclusions about hundreds of thousands of Officers without even basic knowledge about military structure or the "way things really are."

    Thanks for the "support" but I'd just prefer you educate yourself a little more before you claim to know what the military actually supports. Heaven forbid you quote actual policy instead of some media source.
    Originally posted by HOST78
    Straight from the dog's mouth - "The US military initially said there was no indication of abuse in the two men's deaths and that interrogation techniques were methods that were "generally accepted"

    Straight from the article - "Dilawar, 22, was said to have been chained to a ceiling by his wrists for four days, and then beaten on his legs more than 100 times during a 24-hour period. He was being questioned about an attack on a US air base, but the report says most interrogators believed him to be an innocent taxi driver who simply drove past at the time of the attack."
    Forget about remaining civil. From your last 2 posts, it seems as tho you are not capable. I state my opinions on the facts at hand, but you end up attacking the person, not the argument

    And wow... you're telling to me to do my homework, but when I do quote some news sources and the military itself, you bash me again?

    I enjoy exchanging thoughts and ideas even when they oppose my own - I DO NOT ENJOY CONVERSING WITH PPL WHO RESORT TO BASHING.
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  20. #20
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    Really? So these were not your words:

    "Oh wait... orders were not disobeyed. The US military condones this type of treatment as per their own admission..."

    That was nowhere in the article but was your own conclusion. Poorly drawn.

    Fact is that you began by bashing and stating that the issue was not "bad apples" but drew conclusions that did not have to be drawn. I am passionate, yes, but you quote a single source, state you are only debating "facts", and then tell me I report to bashing.

    You apparently don't want to debate people with real information who question the faulty conclusions you draw.

    Draw whatever conclusions you want about me. My reputation for honest debate is well established but I cannot abide poor researched attacks even if you thought you were merely parroting a news article. Your conclusions are not even found in the article:

    Yes, you can class this as something wrong with the military."
    The actions in the military come down from the top and can be traced through a chain of command.
    You can't weed out the bad apples as it comes straight from Bush himself...
    All completely unfounded and your beliefs, not from what the article forces you to draw, but from some other place of spite.

    So be as smug as you wish but your arguments have been shown to be thin and bare attacks upon the character and integrity of members of the Armed Services of which I am one. You're "oh gosh I was only quoting facts..." cannot be supported by any "fact" you present.
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  21. #21
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    As an ex-member of the United States Armed Forces (Navy man myself) what you say rings so true DevilDog. I will force myself to refrain from posting in reply to HOST78's posts for two reasons. 1.) You have already done so and done it well. 2.) There is no way I could be a civil as you are with someone as ignorant as he is.

    I am sure any man/woman who has been in the service would be proud to read what you have said so far in this thread.

  22. #22
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    Originally posted by DevilDog
    Really? So these were not your words:

    "Oh wait... orders were not disobeyed. The US military condones this type of treatment as per their own admission..."
    a) article said prisoner was "chained to ceiling"
    b) military said practice was "generally accepted"

    Originally posted by DevilDog

    That was nowhere in the article but was your own conclusion. Poorly drawn.
    Did I make up the quotes?

    Originally posted by DevilDog

    Fact is that you began by bashing and stating that the issue was not "bad apples" but drew conclusions that did not have to be drawn. I am passionate, yes, but you quote a single source, state you are only debating "facts", and then tell me I report to bashing.

    You apparently don't want to debate people with real information who question the faulty conclusions you draw.

    Draw whatever conclusions you want about me. My reputation for honest debate is well established but I cannot abide poor researched attacks even if you thought you were merely parroting a news article. Your conclusions are not even found in the article:

    All completely unfounded and your beliefs, not from what the article forces you to draw, but from some other place of spite.

    So be as smug as you wish but your arguments have been shown to be thin and bare attacks upon the character and integrity of members of the Armed Services of which I am one. You're "oh gosh I was only quoting facts..." cannot be supported by any "fact" you present.
    You sound like a fanatic.
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  23. #23
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    If you think the U.S. military is bad, you haven't seen armies and their doctrines of other countries.

    Just for the record, South Vietnamese War Vets just gave it a laugh when they look at and read about the abuses reported by New York Times et all. If you haven't stay in a Vietnamese Communist re-education camp, you DON'T know what the word "abuse" really mean.

    No matter what party is in the office, the media will always bash the government and dislike the military. It happens in every country, not just here.

  24. #24
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    Well put tieudieutu. Everyone will bash the ''goverment'' but they forget WE, the American people are the goverment. If you dont like someone in office DONT vote for them. I dont see nothing wrong in the way the military is doing its practices. If you dont like it too bad, you see the crap they go thru and see how they need to get rid of these terrorist, and you expect to treat them good? LAUGH

  25. #25
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    Originally posted by HOST78
    a) article said prisoner was "chained to ceiling"
    b) military said practice was "generally accepted"

    Did I make up the quotes?

    You sound like a fanatic.
    I am now put in my place...people have read our posts and, sadly, you have been shown to have trounced me with such persuasive words.
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  26. #26
    DevilDog, don't worry about him/her. Not worth the energy. America does support the troops, and that is a good thing. It is completely different from the way Vietnam Vets were treated. That was a painful lesson, but fortunately most all know that our troops are doing the best that they can, all politics aside. They are good people.

    People will committ crimes. That a few did so while in the military does not make all military people bad, nor does it indicate that it is accepted. Crimes have always been committed, both my civilians and military all over the world. That is why the military and civilian governmets all have law enforcement and investigative branches. It is not tolerated, and people are brought to justice.
    Don't you walk thru my words
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  27. #27
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    Originally posted by TalkMilitary
    DevilDog, don't worry about him/her. Not worth the energy. America does support the troops, and that is a good thing.

  28. #28
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    Re: Oh no, the Military has done it again

    Originally posted by azizny

    I dont know, but I think something is wrong with the Military these days!

    Peace,
    Yet you freak out when others make such generalizations about Muslims based on the actions of a small group of bastards... ironic...

  29. #29
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    Originally posted by DevilDog
    I am now put in my place...people have read our posts and, sadly, you have been shown to have trounced me with such persuasive words.
    A simple question was asked, "did I make up the quotes?"

    Yet a complex web was weaved. A simple YES or NO would have sufficed.

    Yes I support the soldiers from all the friendly countries.. US, Canada, UK, etc, etc, etc... Do I agree with all their actions? No.

    ANYWAYS, LETS PUT AN END TO THIS DEBATE.
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