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Thread: All Hosts Suck.

  1. #1

    All Hosts Suck.

    All hosting companies have their problems. After hundreds of hours shopping and years in the business I can't find any single reseller host that I trust to keep me in control of my and my customers destiny.

    It's not that they are all bad. Many of them provide excellent service, services and even value.

    The trouble is that they become victims of their own success, and over time become something other than what I signed up for.

    What I need now is automatic tools to keep my accounts backed up from provider to provider. When I have problems I can flip a few settings and move accounts as fast as DNS TTL expires.

    I know that this is terribly complicated from a technical standpoint. I know that dynamic content doesn't fit well with this. I know that I will create as many problems as I avoid until these tools and my skills become perfect.

    But at least I will be in control.

    Are there any tools out there that help with this? I think I am looking for scripts that port settings and files between Hsphere based hosts without the hosts necessarily supporting them.

  2. #2
    If your time is worth much, maybe paying a higher price would be worth it. While high price does not always equal high service, lowest price must equal overstretched resources or no profit for the host.

    I would think a higher priced server that invests some of the extra income into lower server loads and increased monitoring will leave you not having the disruption of moving.

    Another idea - could you have two servers (much cheaper end) with mirrored content? Then you could just flip your settings to send people to the mirrored site? Maybe your content is too dynamic for that to work ...

  3. #3
    You first statement is true, but I don't feel it is pursuable. Even if I could find a good host that provided that. I can't be guaranteed that it would last. And many problems are not due to server load alone.

    Your last statement is exactly what I am after. I have little dynamic content. I know how to do all this manually, but it is to much work and prone to errors. The cost of two accounts is not a problem.

  4. #4
    I see. site5 has a good reputation, and hostnexus is pretty good, too. You could have the "backup" site on a very cheap host, though - slightly increasing the likelyhood of simultaneous problems.

  5. #5
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    Did you find all your hosts via this forum? Just curious as to if you moved from the monthly favorite to the monthly favorite?
    Gary Jones

    BlueFur.com - Canada Web Hosting

  6. #6
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    Actually it's not that hard to keep multiple servers mirrored. Rsynch and a lot of other tools will do it. You'll use up some bandwidth each day (amount depending on what gets copied and how often) but it's feasible to do. The trick is to carefully organize it prior to implementation. One thing I'd advise is keeping (per RFC) multiple DNS on different subnets, and setting TTL to say 10-12 hours, or 2-8 if you're really insecure.
    "Obsolesence is just a lack of imagination."

  7. #7
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    sounds like a job for a daily backup to an offsite location (a backup space provider)

    combined with

    keeping the dns TTL low (perhaps an outsourced dns solution)
    Last edited by CD Burnt; 05-20-2005 at 02:10 PM.

  8. #8
    1and1 comes to mind as a very cheap server. I'm not sure I'd put a primary site there, but a mirror there could make sense.

  9. #9
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    Originally posted by tsystems
    And many problems are not due to server load alone.

    I take it you use CPanel, thats one of the things I hate about it and another reason we dropped it. Running all those services on one system never seemed to make sense. Maybe you should look a clustered reseller type setup like H-Sphere. That might work better for you.

    If it's high load issues ether you have to find a CPanel host or server with no many people on it or another CP that can spead that load over a number of systems.

  10. #10
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    HostGator has very good reputation for their reseller plans, you should certainly look into them

  11. #11
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    Better to have your own dedicated server and your own techs so that the things will remain always under your control.
    ESC :wq!

  12. #12
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    Originally posted by firestarter
    Better to have your own dedicated server and your own techs so that the things will remain always under your control.
    Don't forget your own data center, your own pipes... but why stop there... you could own the block the dc is on... or the power company that keeps you lit...

    Ok, maybe I went a little overboard.

    People don't opt for their own dedicated server with their own techs because that's the point of buying services from a 3rd party. It's not your core business, so you don't want to have to deal with it.
    Jacob - WebOnce Technologies - 30 Day 100% Satisfaction Guarantee - Over 5 Years Going Strong!
    Website Hosting, PHP4&5, RoR, MySQL 5.0, Reseller Hosting, Development, and Designs
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  13. #13
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    WebOnce

    I just sugsted an option so that thing remain among his hands. You and we all know that we cant have our bit pipe and I do feel that webhosting does need a lot of attension and people who have a dedicated team tend to have more peacefull night sleeps.

    Thread starter, tsystems has shared his views and is reaaly asking for a solution and I was just telling that he can go for a dedicated server.

    Me think, moving between hosts and pulling own hair seems to be more painfull than having own dedicated server.

    ESC :wq!

  14. #14
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    Originally posted by firestarter
    WebOnce

    I just sugsted an option so that thing remain among his hands. You and we all know that we cant have our bit pipe and I do feel that webhosting does need a lot of attension and people who have a dedicated team tend to have more peacefull night sleeps.

    Thread starter, tsystems has shared his views and is reaaly asking for a solution and I was just telling that he can go for a dedicated server.

    Me think, moving between hosts and pulling own hair seems to be more painfull than having own dedicated server.

    Well, get a dedicated server, sure, would help, though he's concerned (i believe) also about the support from the host, which could be helped by going with a third party server administration company. That way if you did have server problems, you could switch DC's, and if you have admin problems, you can just switch admins. You enable yourself to further refine the control you have over the situation.
    Jacob - WebOnce Technologies - 30 Day 100% Satisfaction Guarantee - Over 5 Years Going Strong!
    Website Hosting, PHP4&5, RoR, MySQL 5.0, Reseller Hosting, Development, and Designs
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  15. #15
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    Well, get a dedicated server, sure, would help, though he's concerned (i believe) also about the support from the host, which could be helped by going with a third party server administration company. That way if you did have server problems, you could switch DC's, and if you have admin problems, you can just switch admins. You enable yourself to further refine the control you have over the situation.
    Thats the best solution
    ESC :wq!

  16. #16
    Are there any tools out there that help with this? I think I am looking for scripts that port settings and files between Hsphere based hosts without the hosts necessarily supporting them.
    Maybe you should look a clustered reseller type setup like H-Sphere. That might work better for you.
    Looks like they are currently using h-sphere.

    tsystems, may I ask what sorts of problems you are having? Sounds like you have been with a few companies during a growth spurt, and you lost the "personal touch" kinda support you expect. Problem is, alot of the smaller, newer providers that offer the level of service youre after, often times lacks the stability you need and demand....

    Based on your post, it doesnt seem as though you are a bargain shopper. If you're willing to give up a bit of the personal touch support, in exchange for competent, timely support, there are providers that can fulfill your requirements, while still providing you the stability and overall uptime you require....

    Are there any tools out there that help with this? I think I am looking for scripts that port settings and files between Hsphere based hosts without the hosts necessarily supporting them.
    There is an hsphere backups solution - however - 1) both hosts would need it installed, and the synching would still be manual (backup from one cluster and restore on another) - dont think this will accomplish what you are looking for, but, its the closest tool Ive seen to accomodate your requirements....

    The only other thing I can think of is taking advantage of NetApp and h-sphere's ability to load balance servers utilizing this utility. It may be possible to configure this across clusters - but, I think this is a stretch.. Here is a link to some info on netapp, h-sphere, load balancing...

    http://www.psoft.net/HSdocumentation...iguration.html

    Hope this helps...
    www.cartika.com
    www.clusterlogics.com - You simply cannot run a hosting company without this software. Backups, Disaster Recovery, Big Data, Virtualization. 20 years of building software that solves your problems

  17. #17
    Thanks for the input. I had my own servers, on my own T1. I don't have enough customers to justify the cost and care it required. I am using H-Sphere. I have been knocked out by denial of service attacks, had outgoing mail get block by Spam Cop. (Common for H-sphere I understand.) Among other problems that were and weren't my providers fault. I pride myself on not pointing fingers. So when my customers ask what's going on, I consider telling them that it was something beyond my control is just a temporary explanation.

    Backup and restore would work, if I can do it as a reseller. All the solutions I have found are whole server based or just files. It’s all the little settings that I fear will bite me.

    I am hoping to pull together the following setup.

    Get DNS services from host A
    Get H-sphere from B and C
    B and C should be located at different data centers and probably different time zones.
    Set up my accounts on host B
    Backup files and settings from B and restore to host C

    Set MX addresses to prefer one with the other listed as secondary MX.

    I will set up BOTH email accounts on my client’s machines so that the servers do not need to forward to each other.

    I am trying this now but it requires me knowing everyone’s passwords.

    For the web services I will point DNS to the provider that I think is most reliable.

    When things seem shaky at either provider C or D I just go to provider A and change the DNS entries. When things get shaky at the other provider I switch back. Most of the time problems at any provider are temporary.

    The billing plans at A, B and C have to be compatible. I can’t have one charging by the domain and the other charging by the admin logins. I can’t have one allocation based and the other usage based, unless they are all generous enough not to be a problem.

    I have found pieces here and there but nothing I could put together and still make any money at. I also don’t want to have a different provider for every client. I like H-sphere because it does almost everything any of my clients have ever needed.

    CartikaHosting, A link to the backup scripts you were thinking of would be real helpful.

  18. #18
    Hello tsystems,

    The backup/restore script works on an account level.

    www.hspherepackages.com

    Now, I understand what it is you are trying to accomplish, but really - dont you think it will be easier to find a provider with a reliable and consistent history. Being on a h-sphere cluster, you know your accounts will be spread across several servers - so, if you choose the right provider, you should never have a complete outage (unless of course its a network issue) - additionally, there are h-sphere providers with a solid track record of 99.9+% uptime. I would really focus your search here, as I think your need for duplicating accounts and dealing with all the DNS and MX settings could be greatly minimized.

    had outgoing mail get block by Spam Cop. (Common for H-sphere I understand.)
    I dont see any reason at all why this would be common with h-sphere - we have never really had this issue. This is more of an issue with your users getting reported - or, not having your rDNS configured properly - which again, isnt h-sphere specific.

    The billing plans at A, B and C have to be compatible. I can’t have one charging by the domain and the other charging by the admin logins.
    This is something you have complete control over with each reseller account and would be able to configure however you see fit.


    Hopefully this helps....
    www.cartika.com
    www.clusterlogics.com - You simply cannot run a hosting company without this software. Backups, Disaster Recovery, Big Data, Virtualization. 20 years of building software that solves your problems

  19. #19
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    Originally posted by tsystems
    [B]had outgoing mail get block by Spam Cop. (Common for H-sphere I understand.)
    Mail blocks @ spamcop have nothing to do with the H-Sphere software. The host, or the customers it hosts are the only reason any provider would be listed. H-Sphere does not exist as far as spamcop is concerned, or any RBL for that matter.

    I am hoping to pull together the following setup.
    Get DNS services from host A
    I'm not sure how much this would affect you, but this option would knock out instant access aliases, and third level DNS.

    Set MX addresses to prefer one with the other listed as secondary MX.
    This again will pose some problems - not many - but some. What you'll have is clients/domains on one cluster not being able to email some on the other (This could include your own mails, sent to customers. For instance, via "mass mail"). This is because if you have mail service turned on for a domain, it will look local first. If it finds the domain, it will send local. It will not send it out to the internet, to find it "true" dns record.

    The things you're wanting to do are above and beyond reseller level. You need a cluster. Clusters can be spread amongst multiple datacenters/providers.

    Simon
    EIRCA Ltd, home of The Genius Network™.

  20. #20
    IHSL, As far as spamcop is concerned see the thread:
    http://www.webhostingtalk.com/showth...hlight=spamcop

    I got instant access aliases to work. The instant access aliases, at least at my provider, consist of a wildcard entry for each server in the cluster. I just duplicated the entries in my hosting domains DNS entries. Its a lot of work and will break if any server in the cluster gets its IP address changed.

    Sub domains also have to be set up manually.

    As far as the local mail server always being preferred over the DNS info. I have had this exact problem. Because the client is checking both servers this will only cause problems when one of the mail servers is down. And hopefully I will have all my customers using the one that is up. Fortunately my customers mostly don't email each other.


    As far as clusters are conserned. Cluster means different things to different people. When clustering gets to the level I would feel comfortable to avoid these problems it is targeted at high availibility web sites. Thats too expensive. I've seen around $200 plus per month per domain.

    My current provider uses an H-sphere cluster. It splits mail, web, database and control panel to different servers. It is all at the same DC. It has multiple web servers but any given domain is on just one server. Apparently H-sphere does not let you have multiple mail servers. The mail server appears to be overloaded. They are moving it to new hardware and a new DC. I am predicting that the move will not go smoothly. That is why I am here. I suspect that after the move things will be OK for a year or so.

    I have come to belive that no host is immune to all problems. That is why I want redundant hosts.

    I also love the concept of shared hosting. I know this sounds cotradicting. But the value from a performance and support standpoint is spectactular. The bulk of the problems at my current host were found and fixed before me or any of my customers even had a chance to notice.

  21. #21
    Hello tsystems,

    Most h-sphere clusters are configured as you have outlined.

    My current provider uses an H-sphere cluster. It splits mail, web, database and control panel to different servers. It is all at the same DC. It has multiple web servers but any given domain is on just one server.
    However, there is absolutely no reason a provider could not 1) cluster each of those resource servers via load balancing and NetApp.

    Apparently H-sphere does not let you have multiple mail servers. The mail server appears to be overloaded.
    Again, you can have as mail servers as you like, simply by adding it to the cluster and turning off the original mail server for new signups and new domains. However, especially with mail service - the better way to go would be to add an additional mail server and load balance the mail resource servers into their own high availability cluster.

    My current provider uses an H-sphere cluster. It splits mail, web, database and control panel to different servers. It is all at the same DC. It has multiple web servers but any given domain is on just one server.
    Well, this isnt entirely true. All web content for a particular domain will be on 1 server - however, every other resource associated with that domain, including DB, em, DNS, etc, will be on different servers. Now, you can most certainly load balance the web servers for increased HA - however, the cost of this for a provider becomes limiting, unless of course you are charging the dollars required to justify load balanced web servers.

    Additionally, even though you can, in theory cluster hsphere across DC's - I really would recommend against it, as now you are relying on a stable pipe between DC's and the site visitors. I just see this as additional points of failure....
    www.cartika.com
    www.clusterlogics.com - You simply cannot run a hosting company without this software. Backups, Disaster Recovery, Big Data, Virtualization. 20 years of building software that solves your problems

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