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  1. #1

    I would stay far away from rackforce, unethical, and they don't take responsibility.

    Background info I have a site www.phpbbforfree.com and a guy copied my whole content word for word www.phpbb4you.com as you can see its disgusting its so blatent its not even funny.

    I just spoke with a guy on the phone who is the general manager of www.rackforce.com and he said he is the general manager. I asked him about a situation I have where an individual hosted by them has copied my content and is in violation of copyright laws. He told me to send an email, which I did 2 days ago, to abuse and it will taken care of. I did not get an automated reply or anything stating that they even got the email.

    He said that his company is not responsible for what is on their servers. He said he is a medium. He said the course of action would be that they would contact the reseller and the reseller would contact the account owner. I asked him what would happen if the account owner did nothing and he said he can't do anything about it cause it is the reseller responsibility. He then went onto state that they are like a phone company and they can't be held liable for anything illegal that is done in a phone conversation, I said that has nothing to do with it as they are not a phone company and they would be held responsible because it is their server in their datacenter and choosing to do nothing about it would open them up to a lawsuit for not taking the server or account down for breaking the law by hosting unauthorized copyrighted material.

    I then called back again and asked to speak to the people who deal with the abuse complaints so I might get an eta or even a status on the situation and the general manager picked up the phone again. He then went to state to me to email abuse to get it resolved, i then informed him I did 2 days ago. He then made up excuses saying that they get busy and get so many emails blah blah blah and that rackforce doesn't even have to anser the abuse complaints and most are over looked. So I'm like well would mine be overlooked I would have liked some email confirming that they got it and that they would look into it since it is a viable complaint. I then told him how his company is liable for them not taking actions and then he told me it was my opinion and it was not fact and that I can believe that if I want to.


    Please tell me I am wrong in my thinking. It is ultimately their responsibility is it not? Its like instead of actually fixing the problem they would rather ignore it hoping it would go away trying to wash their hands of it.
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  2. #2
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    I don't see how they are being unethical... They advised you they would handle it, you played "TV Attorney" and advised them of what you think their legal obligations are and now your posting a "trash rackforce because they didn't jump to my request" thread here.

    I think you're a bit worked up and need to calm down. This isn't an emergency issue and I am sure they will deal with it in due course.

    Furthermore, you're not even a customer of theirs... how can you advise anyone to stay away from them?

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    Last edited by sirius; 05-19-2005 at 06:35 PM.
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  3. #3
    just spoke with a guy on the phone who is the general manager of www.rackforce.com and he said he is the general manager
    Well, if you're going to try to slam me then make sure you quote me accurately.

    I asked him what would happen if the account owner did nothing and he said he can't do anything about it cause it is the reseller responsibility
    What I told you was that if nothing happens then your only recourse is legal. We have no way of sorting out whose site is the real site and whose is the copy. I informed you that we would cooperate with you to the best of our ability.

    i then informed him I did 2 days ago. He then made up excuses saying that they get busy and get so many emails blah blah blah and that rackforce doesn't even have to anser the abuse complaints and most are over looked
    Please at least try to get what I told you right. What I said was that we get between 800 and 2000 emails a day to abuse@. What I went on to say was that we have to go through each of them to determine their legitimacy and it takes time to process those. I said, in your first call, that these can take from a couple of hours to resolve to several days depending on load.

    We deal with these issues as they come up and we are responsible in dealing with abuse reports. What else did I tell you? I said that you need to send another email to [email protected] if you haven't heard back asking for an update.

    How ethical is it to try discredit a company in this manner? We're responsible citizens of the Internet - we respond to abuse complaints in as timely a manner as possible.
    Last edited by WH-Coach; 05-19-2005 at 06:45 PM.

  4. #4
    Responsible is not telling me that it is out of your control cause it is up to the reseller to deal with it. You said it is not your place to making the final decision, you own the server it is in your datacenter.

    As for who's site is the real site ********, check the domains, check the sites, what type of sites are they, how long have they been around, how big are they, when were the accounts created? All you are doing is making excuses dancing around it instead of dealing with the problem. If you actually had an interest in getting something like this resolved you would have wanted to look and have me explain as has every other datacenter which has a website that has copied my text. You would then know that they copied the text from my site. Instead you pushed me off and said send an email and you said if the reseller doesn't take action it isn't our responsibility. Then you said send an email again to follow up when I haven't even gotten a reply email to my email 2 days ago in the first place.

    I haven't had an update so as per your instructions I have sent another email. You claim to be responsible when infact when it comes to this matter you are not responsible and place the responsibility on the reseller instead of yourselves in the deciding matter. None of the other datacenters I have dealt with from theplanet, servermatrix, and liquidweb to name a few had brushed me off and even acted interested since it is ligitimate.

    I know it is not an emergency issue but the fact of the matter is I have heard nothing and gotten no reassurance that my problem is being looked into. Sending an email to an address with no reply for 2 days and then being told to reply to the address again without any reassurance that its even been received doesn't put me at ease when someone has copied my site.

    Saying you are responsible citizens of the internet when infact you state you don't take responsibility for the content and actions from the servers in your datacenters does not make you responsible. Responsible citizens of the internet would care about and be responsible for what goes on in their datacenter because that contributes to the internet community as a whole. Harboring people who copy others sites and lord knows what other illegal things and not claiming responsibility nor being willing to take actions when you are the final say since it is your service you are providing to them is not being a responsible citizen of the internet.
    Last edited by thomor25; 05-19-2005 at 08:05 PM.
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  5. #5
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    Being part of the abuse team at EZZI I have to sympathize with rackforce here. And the thread topic you posted is obviously meant to hurt their business, rather than address an issue.

    This isn't like a spam complaint where 200 people report it, this is a 1-1 dispute, between a customer and (from what I gather) a non customer. What tells them that you didn't copy the other site? Do you actually have rights to the content?

    By your standards, I could post a site just like yours, then call your host and have them confiscate your data.

    EZZI takes abuse complaints very seriously, more seriously than most hosts in my opinion, but from what I've seen here I can't say I'd have answered you any differently.

    I do not condone the actions of the person who stole your content, I hope you find a resolution to this issue, I just wish people would be more thoughtful about their posts when they are frustrated with a company.

  6. #6
    I wrote myself everything on my website, I came up with all that over a matter of hard work in a couple hours. I host 30,000 phpbb forums and that site that is copying my content that I wrote ( aside from the phpbb stuff that describes what features it has ) and others know that. I've had little smaller forum hosts follow me around and try and advertise where I advertise, advertise on adwords under my website name http://www.google.com/search?sourcei...q=phpbbforfree (take a look on the right), copy parts of my website, copy parts of my support sections, and all have been caught. There have been a total of 8 so far and this one being the 9th.

    My topic title is on par with what the thread converys, I didn't say anything about any other services they have, I stated what the actual message of my post included. Its like me telling someone I am not responsible for what is in my own home. I ultimately have control over what is in my house and saying that i do not have a responsibility to what is in my own house when it is on my property is not being responsible.

    The thread deals with the issue that they don't take responsibility for what is in their datacenter, what is in their own house.

    Ezzi, I was not looking for action I was looking for reassurance that the matter would be looked into, that it was recieved, and that things will be dealt with swiftly. Infact all I got was "send an email" and "it will be dealt with in 2 hours to a couple days" and "we get so many emails yadda yadda yadda" then when its known that I sent an email 3 days ago, with still no response, that I should send another email.

    In any event all I am going to get and what I feel I am going to get is a whole lot of "send an email to abuse" answers without any action being taken. Being told to send and email, just send an email we'll get to it, and "they haven't responded? just send another email" doesn't reassure me at all that they are going to look into it. How many emails does it take before you just call and want something done but then be told again to send an email? It had been 2 days so I called.

    I had no such reassurance that my problem would be looked into, nothing at all even the simple things ezzi has said above would give me enough peace of mind that someone actually would do something since I got nothing in my email so far even now instead of a scripted "send an email" statement and "we do not take responsibility" statement.

    Its things like this that make a company stand out, ezzi has stood out by how he phrased things and by his last statement, its a personal touch and treating someone how you would want to be treated in that situation. Ezzi would be a company I would do business with. I currently have 4 servers and a vps with more servers being added every other month. I could have been a possible client even though I am not right now. Its all about how you deal with people and simply put I am not satisfied with my dealings with rackforce.

    I will keep you updated if I still do not get an answer to my email.
    Last edited by thomor25; 05-20-2005 at 01:44 AM.
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  7. #7
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    While I think this isn't really the appropriate place to complain, there is a simple way to prove that this guy is correct in stating his content is being stolen:

    http://web.archive.org/web/200409220...bbforfree.com/

    An archive of his page, with his content, from before the other site even had registered their domain.

    I don't think it's appropriate to require him to file a legal claim -- this is pretty cut and dry. Give the abusive site the boot.
    Jim Reardon - jim/amusive.com

  8. #8
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    It's not clear what he said in the e-mail, but he should read up on DMCA takedown notices. It shifts the legal responsibility onto him, so action on the host's part can be quite a bit swifter.
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  9. #9
    It is saturday and I still haven't gotten a reply or anything to my two emails.

    I sent the same email to theplanet the same day for another site and they responded 2 days ago.
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  10. #10
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    First off, it's not their job, they are like the phone company, you are incorrect. They can be asked to remove it by a judge, not by you, you have no say. It isn't illegal for them to deny your request, you have no authority by law, and I *REALLY* doubt they'd be in business if they pulled the plug on every server someone ever claimed was doing something illegal without checking it out first.

    How does looking at anything you mentioned prove anything at all? Maybe you downloaded a template for the site, and that guy bought the same one. Maybe you had a custom designer maket he site, and he sold it to someone else. There's absolutely NO WAY for them to know.

    If you want your **** protected, get a lawyer, that's what they're there for. Stop making posts simply to try to defame someone for taking an objectionable approach to a situation where there are no facts, just your accusations.

  11. #11
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    Originally posted by seraph1

    How does looking at anything you mentioned prove anything at all? Maybe you downloaded a template for the site, and that guy bought the same one. Maybe you had a custom designer maket he site, and he sold it to someone else. There's absolutely NO WAY for them to know.
    I agree, but the guy who copied him didn't copy his template, he copied all the text. Word for Word.

  12. #12
    Right and my template I bought from templat monter(spelt wrong cause they are banner by wht I think) and modified, I'm not disputing the template I'm disputing that he copied my text. I didn't hire a designer I made the site and modified the template. The text is all mine from my head except the phpbb features list.
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  13. #13
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    hosting companies are not law enforcement

    especially with copyright laws.

    rackforce did not have a contract with you. they had a contract with the reseller account owner, who had a contract with the www.phpbb4you.com. They have to give that guy the benefit of doubt and give him a chance to respond.

    if rackforce disconnect the server right away, we will get a "rackforce disconnect my server without giving me time to respond" thread. We see that kind of thread very often.

    Why don't you email phpbb4you.com and complain directly? I bet you will get a "oh, sorry, my designer did this and I didn't know" response, and you will quickly see their site changed. I am 95% sure this will happen, because I have seen this kind of posts ("someone stole my site!") many times and it has always ended this way.

  14. #14
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    Rackforce is not obligated to do anything here. Legally, this is between you, and the person that copied your text. Only a judge can step in to ask Rackforce to take it down.
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  15. #15
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    Despite legal requirement, it would still be smart to remove a site which infringes upon a copyright. Just like a facility will remove bulk emailers (even if they are completely legal).
    Jim Reardon - jim/amusive.com

  16. #16
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    Originally posted by amusive.com
    Despite legal requirement, it would still be smart to remove a site which infringes upon a copyright. Just like a facility will remove bulk emailers (even if they are completely legal).
    Incorrect. Doing so would open up Rackforce to legal difficulties. All they can do in this situation is forward a DMCA request to the acual site owner, and from what I see, the original poster hasn't even sent a DMCA take-down notice.
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  17. #17
    Rackforce is based in Canada, and has no US operations.

    Legally, you have no way to get that site offline UNLESS you want to sue them in Canadian court.

    The DMCA doesn't mean **** here.


    If it were my site, I'd continue speaking nicely to rackforce, since you won't force them to take the site down. When you talk to them, you should treat the issue as if their removing the site is doing you a favor, rather than becoming combative and expecting them to remove it.

  18. #18
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    Originally posted by bqinternet
    Incorrect. Doing so would open up Rackforce to legal difficulties. All they can do in this situation is forward a DMCA request to the acual site owner, and from what I see, the original poster hasn't even sent a DMCA take-down notice.
    No, sorry. You are completely wrong. Rackforce would not have any liability for removing a site that they suspect for illegal activities, or for any other reasons -- with or without any paperwork.

    I recommend reading some AUPs.
    Jim Reardon - jim/amusive.com

  19. #19
    Ok the thread is getting a little off hand as I do not want the server pulled and such, all I want to know is if something is being done as I haven't even been sent a reply email to my first 2 emails saying that they got it and are looking into it. I just want the text removed.

    I tried contacting the owner of the site but his whois info is blocked by godaddy(domainsbyproxy) and the website leaves no email address contact. I tried all this before I sent an email to rackforce which was 5 days ago.
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  20. #20
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    There's no contact information on the phpbb4you.com site? iguess I should probably check myself, which is what I will do right now.

    Edit: OK, so no contact info there. Maybe try the support forums and get in contact with him? May not work, but it's worth a try.
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  21. #21
    I already looked someone posted a message and it took like 2 weeks for him to respond but at the rate rackforce is taking it might take longer to hear from them.
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  22. #22
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    Wow, suddenly everyone's an attorney on WHT now, giving all kinds of "legal" advice?
    As far as the original poster:
    WHT is not the place for this kind of an argument, or a trashing post like this. In fact, by doing this, you only discredit yourself, not the company you're trying to trash/attack.
    An issue like this isn't going to be handled immediately, in fact, you'll be lucky if it's handled at all. YOU aren't their customer, someone else is. YOU contacted them, that's good, but you ALSO came here, attacked them, and misrepresented the conversation, claiming that they were "unethical" and that people should stay away from them.

    all I want to know is if something is being done as I haven't even been sent a reply email to my first 2 emails saying that they got it and are looking into it. I just want the text removed.
    And, given your attitude in this thread, and attacking nature, you'll be LUCKY to get even that. What, you expect that kind of an attitude to inspire individuals you don't do business with to just bend over backwards and take it up the tail end for you? Not too likely. In fact, given your attitude, and the fact that YOU attacked THEM, you are liable for your own statements and untrue, unfounded accusations.

    Abuse complaints take time to deal with. It's unrealistic to expect them to be addressed in a matter of days, often times it can take weeks to do something about this, and, since you're not a customer, haven't followed the proper protocol, and this company is out of the DMCA reach, that just makes it that much harder to deal with, meaning it'll take that much longer. Of course, given your own attitude, well, you can expect any progress to come to a screeching halt. If I were in there shoes, I'd send you a mail and tell you to have your attorney contact theirs, then file suit for your false, accusatory comments.

    Seriously now:
    While what you write MAY be copyrighted as soon as you write it, unless you specifically have the copyright papers FOR that text, you're screwed. It's that simple. No court of law will uphold a "copyright" without the legal, proper registration. Words are words, let it go, create something else to put there that someone else can "rip off". Come on now!
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  23. #23
    Look, this is why copyright exists.

    Your words, with your copyright notice at the bottom. He changed the copyright notice, so he's aware that the text he stole was copyrighted.

    Download the app and spend the $15 to register the copyright on the site (use web archives as well if you like), as this gives you more options should you go to court.

    Then, notify the site owner and tell him how you plan to proceed if he doesn't remove your IP.

    Not too hard. No reason to get your blood pressure up. Look at the statutory minimums allowed in cases with registered copyrights (including payment of your legal fees) and start drooling about your dream server. You likely won't get it, but you'll feel better.

  24. #24
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    We are talking about 4 pages of text here. He already changed the graphics, and you cannot really copyright navigation structure. He can write up the new text in a couple of hours notice.

    And the fight is between two FREE forums.

    There is no contact info, but you can go into the forum and send a message to the forum admin.

    If you want to be mean, send a message to all his customers and pursuade them to leave and join yours.

    You will see WAY FASTER result that way.

  25. #25
    Its been a week and I haven't gotten a reply from the abuse department at all not even a reply saying they got the emails. Anyone want to place bets on when they will reply, the odds are high make double your money.
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  26. #26
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    thomor25,
    Your a funny guy.. Do you think typing on the bottom of every page that the site is copyrighted makes it so?

    The ONLY recourse you have legal or otherwise is if you in fact filed a copyright notice on the text that you scribbled down. If you don't have those papers you have nothing.

    Now go move on with your life and stop trying to trash good companies..

  27. #27
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    Actually writing that an item is copyrighted does make it so.
    Jim Reardon - jim/amusive.com

  28. #28
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    Originally posted by amusive.com
    Actually writing that an item is copyrighted does make it so.

    If this was the case I hereby declare "WebHostingTalk" is copyrighted by me And just for good measure I copyright amusive.com too


    My understanding was in order to copyright any piece of material you had to file notice of intention.. Otherwise what's the need for copyright attorney's?

  29. #29
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    Originally posted by amusive.com
    Actually writing that an item is copyrighted does make it so.
    Depends on your country, but here in the UK you don't need to write that something is copyrighted, it's often just put as a reminder.

  30. #30
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    All creative works are copyrighted unless/until specifically made public domain. Registering a copyright makes it easier to prove the time of creation and push for damages, but it's not required to hold rights to the work. Authorship is required, though

    You can also claim a common law trademark if you have a well-established name/image but, again, it's much easier to just register your mark.
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  31. #31
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    In this case the OP purchased a public accessable template from template monster and added text. I do not believe 'creative works' applies here.

  32. #32
    Yes true but I am claiming copyright to the text not the template or images. I am claiming right to the name phpbbforfree and the text I put and I arranged. The template is not the issue here the text is and creative works applies to text, are poems and songs not creative works? The issue here is the text not the template.
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  33. #33
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    Originally posted by thomor25
    Yes true but I am claiming copyright to the text not the template or images. I am claiming right to the name phpbbforfree and the text I put and I arranged. The template is not the issue here the text is and creative works applies to text, are poems and songs not creative works? The issue here is the text not the template.

    I'm sorry I really don't see a case here.. Everytime you touch your keyboard and lay down a few words it is not considered literary work..

    Songs/ poems etc would be a tough fight since you have to show proof of ownership. Website text is a whole other ball game.

  34. #34
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    It's irrelevant if you see the case or not. Legally, when text is written in the united states it is automatically protected by copyright. That is the law, period.
    Jim Reardon - jim/amusive.com

  35. #35
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    Nice condescending and unprofessional post. I'm glad you posted it, and have given your views. I'm sure a few people will look at this, and look elsewhere to purchase the services you offer. If you did this on purpose, congratulations.

    DCs are taking the, "Oh its not our problem" stand on a lot of copyrighted information. I am not saying in this situation it has happend, but I am sure it is... most of us know it is.

    Originally posted by WH-Coach
    Well, if you're going to try to slam me then make sure you quote me accurately.



    What I told you was that if nothing happens then your only recourse is legal. We have no way of sorting out whose site is the real site and whose is the copy. I informed you that we would cooperate with you to the best of our ability.



    Please at least try to get what I told you right. What I said was that we get between 800 and 2000 emails a day to abuse@. What I went on to say was that we have to go through each of them to determine their legitimacy and it takes time to process those. I said, in your first call, that these can take from a couple of hours to resolve to several days depending on load.

    We deal with these issues as they come up and we are responsible in dealing with abuse reports. What else did I tell you? I said that you need to send another email to [email protected] if you haven't heard back asking for an update.

    How ethical is it to try discredit a company in this manner? We're responsible citizens of the Internet - we respond to abuse complaints in as timely a manner as possible.
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  36. #36
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    If I ran the server I wouldn't touch the content until a judge told me to. It's not their place to settle disputes between webmasters. They run a hosting company, not a court system. That's why it's called due process.
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  37. #37
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    Originally posted by keliix06
    If I ran the server I wouldn't touch the content until a judge told me to. It's not their place to settle disputes between webmasters. They run a hosting company, not a court system. That's why it's called due process.
    Taking this route would expose you to a civil lawsuit by the copyright holder.

    A hosting company may be held liable if the copyright owner files a notice of infringement and the hosting company fails to remove the infringing material.
    Secondary Liability

    The person who posted the material is the direct infringer. You as the ISP/Hosting Company are considered the contributory infringer. You have a small degree of lee way for not having knowledge of the infringement, but you are considered a vicarious infringer if you gain financial benefit from the infringement. A vicarious infringer need not have knowledge of the direct infringement. Both represent potential claims by the copyright owner.

    There are a number of penalties for infringement:

    Monetary damages

    Statutory damages - $500 to $20,000 per work infringed. Willfull infringement can be up to $100,000 per work infringed. Innocent infringement is a minimum of $200 per work infringed.
    Under the Omnibus Reform Act wilfull infringement has been raised to $150,000 and Statutory damages will be increased to $750 and $30,000 per work infringed.

    Attorney's fees

    Preliminary Injuction (restraining order)

    There's also the No electronic Theft Act that establishes copyright liability even without econmic gain to the user, when the material consists over one or more works over a retail value of $2,500.

  38. #38
    Welcome to armchair lawyers a division of WHT. It looks like a difficult situation when RackForce is out of Canada. RackForce is in a difficult situation also, since he is not a customer of Rackforce. I would believe that the one with the best lawyers will win. I do feel badly for thomor25, but justice costs money for the most part. Get a lawyer to send a letter to cease and desist, once you can track down the email, address. I am only am related to lawyers by marriage, so I will let my armchair lawyer info go now and leave it to the rest of the WHT lawyers

    Hopefully something can be worked.

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    5,765
    With a person hosting over 30,000 forums im not sure why they are so upset that a few pages of their text is being stolen... I doubt there has been any true damages done. With a TM page layout and just the text being copied I see this as a small deal to say the least.
    Mike from Zoodia.com
    Professional web design and development services.
    In need of a fresh hosting design? See what premade designs we have in stock!
    Web design tips, tricks, and more at MichaelPruitt.com

  40. #40
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Posts
    3,084
    When you work hard to create something you'll understand what it's like to get it ripped off.
    Jim Reardon - jim/amusive.com

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