View Poll Results: Should capital punishment be allowed?

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  • Yep, universally throughout the world

    30 46.15%
  • Yep, but only in certain places

    7 10.77%
  • No way, its wrong

    9 13.85%
  • No way, its wrong - its murder

    19 29.23%
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  1. #1
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    Arrow Capital Punishment :: Right or wrong

    Okay, I'd be the first to admit (or perhaps I wouldn't that I can be quite morbid at times), thats why at 4:00 today I found myself surfing around the official Texas Death Row website:

    http://www.tdcj.state.tx.us/stat/deathrow.htm

    Searching through the killed -

    http://www.tdcj.state.tx.us/stat/executedoffenders.htm

    and the yet-to-be-killed.

    http://www.tdcj.state.tx.us/stat/sch...executions.htm

    Call me morbid, call me whatever - personally I believe all humans have a bit of morbidity within them
    However, it raises that age old question -

    Should capital punishment be allowed?

    Personally, I don't think so - what do you say and why?

    Jord
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  2. #2
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    I said yes, but I think it should be changed how it is done in America.
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  3. #3
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    Yes. If you kill someone, we'll kill you back.

    On a serious note, I do believe in capital punishment. Some people are just not re-habilitatable. And with the innocent-until-proven-guilty method in the US, along with the cost and time it takes to actually send someone all the way through death row, I'm confident enough that they do their best to not punish the innocent.

    Of course, mistakes happen, but we live in an imperfect world.
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  4. #4
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    Hmm..interesting question...

    On one hand, I believe if you brutally kill / rape / torture someone - especially children - you should receive the same in return.

    Morally, though, I don't believe it is our right to say to someone that it is their time to die. I think that's a job the big Man upstairs has covered .

    JMO though.
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  5. #5
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    I do not support it. No justice system is perfect.

    Executing a killer puts us at the same level as the killer. There are better ways to deal with such people.
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  6. #6
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    I believe everyone has the right and the will to live. I've explained my reasoning many times before on WHT, and frankly consider it a waste of all of our time to do so again. No one's opinion is going to change, and therefore the attempt to change one's opinion, while well-intentioned, is in vain.

    An eye for an eye really does blind those who agree. There have been times where a killer was proved innocent by DNA testing some four or five decades after he supposedly committed the crime. Is this justice? No, not at all; and it isn't just a "mistake" -- it's taking somebody's entire life away. Should we do the same again, only this time we'll actually execute the person? While this isn't nearly my major argument for not supporting the death penalty, I believe it is a valid one, just the same.

    DNA testing should eliminate false positives almost entirely, but there still may be room for error, if only on the part of the person investigating and matching the DNA -- a typical and otherwise acceptable error within an otherwise acceptable margin, but with disastrous results in playing with someone's life.

    The purpose of American justice is not to inflict pain upon people; rather, it is to punish and teach criminals right from wrong, with hopes (normally) of changing the person around, getting them out of prison and back on their feet once again. While I agree that this is often not possible with some of those who commit atrocious and hardly believable crimes, I believe it is possible with most. Even with those with whom this is not possible, why kill them? State-sponsored murder cannot be justified, no matter how endorsed it is by the government. Life is sacred -- all life.
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  7. #7
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    No.

    We cannot call ourselves "civilized" if we stoop to that level. If a criminal is killed during the commission of his/her crime by police or civilians, then it's just too bad for the criminal. Once the criminal is incarcerated, they are no longer a threat to society and this lust for revenge is just silly. In the U.S. we should be rethinking how sentencing is done, if someone brutally murders someone else, things like parole and furloughs should not even come into question. Life in prison for murder should be just that, without giving them another chance to kill again. I wonder how many are on death row in the U.S. who are actually innocent?
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  8. #8
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    Originally posted by unixorn
    We cannot call ourselves "civilized" if we stoop to that level. If a criminal is killed during the commission of his/her crime by police or civilians, then it's just too bad for the criminal. Once the criminal is incarcerated, they are no longer a threat to society and this lust for revenge is just silly. In the U.S. we should be rethinking how sentencing is done, if someone brutally murders someone else, things like parole and furloughs should not even come into question. Life in prison for murder should be just that, without giving them another chance to kill again. I wonder how many are on death row in the U.S. who are actually innocent?
    Very well said, especially the part about the "lust for revenge"; this is what I have been opining since I first thought about the subject.
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  9. #9
    I'm in favor of putting them to hard labor for life. But I also support the death penalty. Not sure which i prefer more.
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  10. #10
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    The state has the "power of the sword" to execute those who commit crimes.

    I respect those whose "religious" beliefs (and let's be honest about that fact no matter what side you take and whether you believe you have a religion) that believe it denegrates life or is "lust for revenge".

    The state executes judgement, and has for centuries, precisely to prevent people taking matters into their own hands. It is revenge if I avenge the death of a loved one. It is justice for the state to punish the criminal.

    You state that it makes a civilization "uncivilized" when it takes life for a capital crime. I believe precisely the opposite.

    Life is so precious, so valuable that those who would dare snuff it out must pay with their own life. To do less is to devalue the life that was taken. I believe man is created in the image of God and it is upon that basis that any man who dares to take another man's life would pay for His own.

    Before you so readily jump on my conclusion based on a religious conviction, be careful to define your metaphysical underpinning for whatever "conviction" you hold. If you don't agree with me, that's fine and I'm not offended but please provide for me the foundation of whatever claim you make. You can claim it "de-civilizes" all you want but I'm not interested in a statement, I'm interested to know upon what basis you say it causes mankind to lose civility.
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  11. #11
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    Yes, why not. Get rid of all scum.

    This is not a hard question it is actually very easy.

    It is universally understood that it is wrong to kill. So if a person kills somebody then we need to Kill them.

    Surely everybody can see the Justice in this.

    Number 6 of the Top Ten commandments.

    "Thou shalt not kill."

    Now I am still trying to find a commandment that allows us to kill murderers. There must be one of course, surely we wouldn't be breaking Gods commandments by Killing murderous scum, I mean their not like us are they ....

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  12. #12
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    Originally posted by DevilDog
    The state has the "power of the sword" to execute those who commit crimes.
    Says who?

    Originally posted by DevilDog
    I respect those whose "religious" beliefs (and let's be honest about that fact no matter what side you take and whether you believe you have a religion) that believe it denegrates life or is "lust for revenge".
    I didn't quite understand this statement; could you rephrase it? Are you saying that you respect those whose religious beliefs dictate that it degenerates life or is a lust for revenge, or something else?

    If the former, I don't know of any western religion that believes specifically that the death penalty degenerates life or is a lust for revenge. As well, I don't endorse any religion whatsoever, so what you said wouldn't apply to me.

    Originally posted by DevilDog
    The state executes judgement, and has for centuries, precisely to prevent people taking matters into their own hands. It is revenge if I avenge the death of a loved one. It is justice for the state to punish the criminal.
    Judgment? What do you mean by judgment? Deciding one's fate is executing judgment? Sure, it may be so, but it sure as heck doesn't seem like good judgment to me. Who is the state to decide the fate of one man? Justice is done when culprits are kept away from society and from committing crimes once again, and therefore in prison. However, how can one actually endorse the death penalty as "justice"? It is not the state's job to punish and take life away; rather, it is the state's job to prevent and rehabilitate.

    I do understand, however, your support of the death penalty completely, especially if you are Christian. Justice, in your eyes, will be served upon the criminal's execution when salvation is not achieved for said; the criminal will go to Hell, where he belongs. I understand that completely, if you want to support the death penalty purely on the basis of religious views. But what about as a fellow human being? Where are your values and morals when you advocate cutting someone's life short, regardless of their past? While death isn't a terrible thing, life is much more beautiful, and people can be of much more purpose and use when they are alive.

    Originally posted by DevilDog
    You state that it makes a civilization "uncivilized" when it takes life for a capital crime. I believe precisely the opposite.

    Life is so precious, so valuable that those who would dare snuff it out must pay with their own life. To do less is to devalue the life that was taken. I believe man is created in the image of God and it is upon that basis that any man who dares to take another man's life would pay for His own.
    You just supported my conclusion about religious beliefs having almost everything to do with this issue, if one is indeed religious and of Judeo-Christian religions.

    That aside, how is not executing someone devaluing the life that was taken? The government is not endorsing a criminal (or devaluing the life that he took) by locking him up for his entire life -- but at least he can live.

    Originally posted by DevilDog
    Before you so readily jump on my conclusion based on a religious conviction, be careful to define your metaphysical underpinning for whatever "conviction" you hold. If you don't agree with me, that's fine and I'm not offended but please provide for me the foundation of whatever claim you make. You can claim it "de-civilizes" all you want but I'm not interested in a statement, I'm interested to know upon what basis you say it causes mankind to lose civility.
    I can't prove to you anything, but it is in my opinion that state-sponsored execution is morally wrong, and is uncivilized, if we are to use it in comparing the practice of capital punishment to the situation and basis upon which our country was founded and the struggle in which our founding fathers gained its independence. To execute a man is barbaric, and is not the job of the government, regardless of how righteous you consider the government. The government is just a group of humans, similar to you and me. Why should they have any more say over this man's fate than we do? By accepting all of their decisions, executions of fellow humans included, we are sheep in a herd, following our shepherd -- our Big Brother.

    Is not it murder for me to kill you? Why is it not murder for the "government" to kill a fellow man? He did nothing to them; he did not threaten or harm their property or person; rather, they are executing this man upon the basis that he killed another, in a completely unrelated and irrelevant incident to the persons concerned with executing said man. Thus, I don't understand why it's right for them to kill him. The government has one purpose, in my opinion, and in the ostensible opinions of our founding fathers: to maintain order. If that means providing social security so elderly people are not out on the streets, homeless, dirty, dying, and possibly dangerous, that is their job (in their opinion), just as an example. However, how is playing with such sensitive and permanent (not to mention drastic) differences such as life and death maintaining order? Sure, locking criminals up so they can't commit their crime again is maintaining order, but killing them achieves nothing but our "lust for revenge".
    Last edited by SniperDevil; 05-12-2005 at 09:34 PM.
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  13. #13
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    The job of the government is, to the extent that it can, to protect the innocent. Incarceration and/or execution may be necessary to do that. Putting someone in prison is a nasty thing to do, too, but that is one of the dirty jobs involved in protecting society from criminals. Some people argue against the death penalty because it isn't punitive enough for some crimes, and I kind of agree that it isn't. Unfortunately instead of making the imprisonment more punitive and an adequate separation of the criminal from more prospective victims, it becomes a stepping stone to more privileges and early release. In some cases the inmates doing shorter sentences for lesser offenses gets killed by capital criminals placed in the same population. A death sentence for theft at the hands of someone whom we lack the will to execute for murder.
    The finality of an execution combined with the risk of erroneous conviction becomes a more serious concern. We need to keep the process of prosecution and trial honest in capital cases, and also for suspects facing incerceration. Imprisoning the innocent is not okay just because we abstain from killing them. And yet the people who pour resources into preventing the execution of the overwhelmingly proven guilty could be putting those resources into keeping the trials of others more honest, but don't.
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  14. #14
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    [quote=Tornoto,24 YL]
    I am sorry for the pain: sorry for what I caused my friends, family and loved ones. I feel a great deal of responsibility and guilt for all this crime. I should be punished for the crime, but I do not think I should die for a crime I did not commit. I am sorry, but nothing can bring Kim, Ollie, and Gigi back. But I pray my death brings peace for my family that may unite the family. I ask for your forgiveness and that you will all forgive me. I have no animosity; I am at peace and invite you all to my funeral. We are still family. I love you all, Momma, Aunt Deidra, family and everybody. I love you. I am ready, Warden.
    [quote]

    Peace,
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  15. #15
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    I wonder how many who say they are not for capital punishment might feel differently if they had a wife or daughter raped and then murdered. How about your mother or loved one? Live and let live. Right?
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  16. #16
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    Sniperdevil,

    I was hoping for some meaningful dialogue. I don't know how you vaunted off into so many conclusions you could not possibly draw from my post except by whatever preconceptions you have about whatever I believe.

    By your own admission:

    I can't prove to you anything, but it is in my opinion that state-sponsored execution is morally wrong, and is uncivilized...
    So upon what basis do you launch into some sort of diatribe against what I believe about the value of life? I'm asking for the foundation, the bedrock, of your belief. Is the country supposed to change its laws concerning capital punishment because Sniperdevil opines that it is morally reprehensible? Is there some other transcendent basis beside the neurons in your brain that would add any moral weight to anything you said?

    I'm pointing beyond myself to a standard. You can reject that standard if you wish. It is your right as an American to disagree with me and I don't have a problem with it. You draw the completely wrong conclusions from what I said as to the motivation for the punishment but you still have the right to disagree with the standard.

    What I'm asking you, or anyone else, who disagrees with me for is a standard that goes beyond your opinion. If it's just chemical processes in your brain then, frankly, what difference does it make that your synapses dictate to my synapses what I should do?

    I wouldn't bring the Founding Fathers into the discussion. If they inherently disagreed with Capital Punishment, they would not have included a crime that carried Capital Punishment as the penalty.
    Last edited by DevilDog; 05-12-2005 at 10:37 PM.
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  17. #17
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    Originally posted by Martinez
    I wonder how many who say they are not for capital punishment might feel differently if they had a wife or daughter raped and then murdered. How about your mother or loved one? Live and let live. Right?
    Ok so lets look at your idea.

    If you are religious then according to Christianity when you die you either go to Heaven or Hell, now in your example of the person raping and Killing a loved one, well chances are that person had already sinned and was destined to hell anyway. If the person repents on their death bed he/she end up in Heaven, if not Hell, by putting that person to death all you have done is speed up the process a little.

    If you believe in reincarnation again all you have achieved by killing the person is speed the process up a little.

    If you don't believe in the after life then the person just rots in the ground, all you did was speed the process up a little.

    If instead of killing the person that person is locked away, they have years and years to suffer for their deeds.

    In brief killing them just puts them out of their misery.

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  18. #18
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    All I have to say is what my old history teacher used to say.

    "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind"
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  19. #19
    NO,

    it is wrong but more important, I rather die than spending all my life in prison getting ****** by others.

    It's way more of a punishment to let someone in prison for life sentence than killing him.

    Dr
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  20. #20
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    Originally posted by Martinez
    I wonder how many who say they are not for capital punishment might feel differently if they had a wife or daughter raped and then murdered. How about your mother or loved one? Live and let live. Right?
    I think a counter argument could be that we can't always give the family of the victim what they want. They may very understandably want vigilante justice, but we have to deny that because of the disorder and misdirected punishments that creates.

    But it raises questions about why they want this. There is the old "You can't bring the victim back". And what is this "closure" thing we keep hearing about? Call it vengeance or justice, we have an instinctive sense of duty to see that the killer of our loved ones does not go unpunished. The "closure" that comes from the criminal being executed does not end the grief, but it does end the sense of unfulfilled obligation to prevent the criminal from being free to enjoy his life and to consume more victims. I think we have evolved this way of thinking because, imperfect as it is, it does more than not feeling this way to keep our families from being easy prey to predators.
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  21. #21
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    I'm completely un-surprised by the results so far...

    43% Hell Yes
    27% Not over my Dead Body

    ..and the rest in the middle, which is the sanest place to be and reason why only a small handful think independently
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  22. #22
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    Originally posted by RealtorHost
    I'm completely un-surprised by the results so far...

    43% Hell Yes
    27% Not over my Dead Body

    ..and the rest in the middle, which is the sanest place to be and reason why only a small handful think independently
    Please look at the figures again.

    43.24% Yes
    40.54% NO

    16.22% only under certain circumstance. Which basically is a no.

    So far the No's have it.
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  23. #23
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    Originally posted by TheDoctor
    Please look at the figures again.

    43.24% Yes
    40.54% NO

    16.22% only under certain circumstance. Which basically is a no.

    So far the No's have it.


    why it a no? Seems if it only under certain circumstances it still a yes . Really it is Yep, but only in certain places not certain circumstances . Yep is the key word....
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  24. #24
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    Could somebody explain the "only in certain places" part?
    Does that mean "yes" for where it's already done, and "no" for where it's currently not done?
    Does it mean "no" for countries that currently execute people for non-lethal crimes, and "yes" for countries that usually don't execute so would use it more sparingly?
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  25. #25
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    Originally posted by Torith
    why it a no? Seems if it only under certain circumstances it still a yes . Really it is Yep, but only in certain places not certain circumstances . Yep is the key word....
    Only under certain circumstance ... one would have to assume those circumstances would have to be fairly bad for them to say yes, however for the sake of the exercise as it isn't a 100% yes or 100% no, lets just put that lot to one side. That still leave 16 people voting yes and 16 people voting no .. at this stage. So at the moment we are equal.

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  26. #26
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    Originally posted by Martinez
    I wonder how many who say they are not for capital punishment might feel differently if they had a wife or daughter raped and then murdered. How about your mother or loved one? Live and let live. Right?
    How would you feel if you were executed when you hadn't actually commited the crime? This happens with disturbing frequency.

    Barring any moral issues, the death penalty deviates from basically all other forms of punishment and doesn't fit the mold of the legal system here. It's entirely not eye-for-an-eye in other places. The government doesn't steal from you (or let me steal from you) if you take my belongings. If I assault you, the government doesn't beat me so that I have the same amount of bruises I gave you. Why should murder be any different?
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  27. #27

    WRONG!

    Wrong! Inocent people die.
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  28. #28

    Sorry, they don't die...

    Sorry, they don't die. It is a murder.

    And in USA, if you have money you haven't any problem, but if you are poor... and the law is against you, even if you are inocent, you are die. And it is a democracy... There are worse countries...

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  29. #29
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    Originally posted by error404
    How would you feel if you were executed when you hadn't actually commited the crime?
    I doubt I would feel much after the deed But I think it is an easy way out for the guilty. Let them suffer in prisons. The poll is weird, so I won't vote, it needs rewording.
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  30. #30
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    Originally posted by anon-e-mouse
    I doubt I would feel much after the deed But I think it is an easy way out for the guilty. Let them suffer in prisons. The poll is weird, so I won't vote, it needs rewording.
    Oh right, thanks alot A-e-M!
    How is it weird:

    It's really quite simple...

    Should capital punishment be allowed?
    Thats straightforward

    Yep, universally throughout the world
    Means that it should be allowed everywhere

    Yep, but only in certain places
    For example, many people currently think its okay to have the punishment in Texas only

    No way, its wrong
    Thats straightforward

    No way, its wrong - its murder
    Thats similar to the last one only you consider it to be murder

    Really, I fail to see how the poll is weird.
    Could someone please explain?

    Regards,

    Jord
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  31. #31
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    It means that there isn't an option there I would choose.

    I don't agree with any of choices, there needs to be either/or options I feel.

    For instance No way, its wrong. I somewhat agree with that, for my reasons above, but to vote that option would also be wrong because it isn't totally wrong or right or I just don't get it /me unsubscribes before I get more confused.
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  32. #32
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    Jord

    your question is

    Capital Punishment :: Right or wrong

    That is very simple it is either YES or NO.

    You definitely should have only had two choice, yes or no. To add more only confuses the issue. As you may have notice, the bottom two choice really should just be NO the top choice should be YES and the second choice shouldn't be there at all.

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  33. #33
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    Originally posted by Martinez
    I wonder how many who say they are not for capital punishment might feel differently if they had a wife or daughter raped and then murdered. How about your mother or loved one? Live and let live. Right?
    My brother was murdered by a family member, and I still don't think the death penalty applies to that person. Perhaps a nice solid beating, but not death.

    In a way, I see the death penalty as sort of an easy way out for the murderer. There is no worse punishment than guilt, or having to be alone with the knowledge of what you did.

    There really is no easy answer to this age-old question.
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  34. #34
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    Originally posted by TheDoctor
    Jord your question is
    Capital Punishment :: Right or wrong
    That is very simple it is either YES or NO.
    You definitely should have only had two choice, yes or no. To add more only confuses the issue. As you may have notice, the bottom two choice really should just be NO the top choice should be YES and the second choice shouldn't be there at all.

    Doc
    Okay, thanks Doc, I realise now that the second option was a bit silly and that it would have been significantly more simple to just put YES or NO.
    If any Mod can be bothered, please change. Thanks.
    However, to anon-e-mouse - although I undertstand that none of those options are steadfast in terms of wholeworthy opinion, thats surely what posting is for. To elaborate and amend the option selected in the polls.
    Otherwise, you could even argue that a YES or NO poll would not cover your particular opinion but may do to some degree.

    Anyway, everyone to their own -
    Jord
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  35. #35
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    What about the people who do not feel any guilt at all for killing someone? What about a person who killed many times, and would do it again? Not everyone has a guilt when they do something. As well it has been known of people who did a killing spree outside of jail and went to jail and killed a couple of people as well.

    So really for some guilt is not a punishment as well as jail time. You figure all the stuff they get while in jail they are most likley loving it (or liking it).


    Originally posted by P-nut
    My brother was murdered by a family member, and I still don't think the death penalty applies to that person. Perhaps a nice solid beating, but not death.

    In a way, I see the death penalty as sort of an easy way out for the murderer. There is no worse punishment than guilt, or having to be alone with the knowledge of what you did.

    There really is no easy answer to this age-old question.
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  36. #36
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    Originally posted by Torith
    What about the people who do not feel any guilt at all for killing someone? What about a person who killed many times, and would do it again? Not everyone has a guilt when they do something. As well it has been known of people who did a killing spree outside of jail and went to jail and killed a couple of people as well.

    So really for some guilt is not a punishment as well as jail time. You figure all the stuff they get while in jail they are most likley loving it (or liking it).
    I'm very well aware that some murderers feel no remorse and would very likely do it again. That's why there is no easy answer. Some would truly suffer more living their days out in prison and some would look at it as vacation.

    As I said in my other posts in this thread, these are just my opinions. When it comes to deciding life and death, there is no clear-cut right or wrong answer, nor is there an easy answer.

    My own opinion is based in my beliefs and what I feel is morally right. Doesn't mean I'm right and it doesn't mean you're wrong. I just feel that it is not my right to decide whether another human dies.

    Hell, maybe we should put these murderers in chains and let the family members beat them to a bloody mess once a month. I know that if I had my choice, that would be the best punishment I'd give 'em
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  37. #37
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    I also would like to go with "Put them in prison for the rest of their lives."

    Why, because eventually half of them might be innocent and they will be freed...

    Just an idea.

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  38. #38
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    Originally posted by DevilDog
    I was hoping for some meaningful dialogue. I don't know how you vaunted off into so many conclusions you could not possibly draw from my post except by whatever preconceptions you have about whatever I believe.
    I had very few preconceptions about your beliefs or yourself in any way. I made my statements based on what I read from your earlier posts in this thread. Is that so bad? Sure, I may have inferred some things on my own, or put two and two together, but I don't think I said or even implied anything that was inappropriate considering the content of your posts.

    Originally posted by DevilDog
    So upon what basis do you launch into some sort of diatribe against what I believe about the value of life? I'm asking for the foundation, the bedrock, of your belief. Is the country supposed to change its laws concerning capital punishment because Sniperdevil opines that it is morally reprehensible? Is there some other transcendent basis beside the neurons in your brain that would add any moral weight to anything you said?
    I consider it quite odd that you would take what I said as a diatribe against your beliefs, for I did not intend it in any way as such. I merely stated my own opinions -- my own beliefs -- and put two and two together from this and other posts. I didn't make speculations as to your values based on absolutely nothing, as it seems as though you are implying:

    Quote Originally Posted by DevilDog
    Life is so precious, so valuable that those who would dare snuff it out must pay with their own life. To do less is to devalue the life that was taken. I believe man is created in the image of God and it is upon that basis that any man who dares to take another man's life would pay for His own.
    That convinced me that indeed what you are opining in this thread is based mostly upon your values, these values stemming from religious beliefs.

    Unfortunately, all of humanity isn't quite so rational (nor does everyone have the same religious beliefs, or "values") as you, especially before, during, and after a "capital" murder. In fact, most "capital murderers" are mentally unstable people (at least at the time of the murder(s)), and thus would most likely not think of such a philosophy while committing such a perceived atrocity.

    As for a transcendent basis other than the neurons in my brain, that is quite frankly a pointless argument, when you consider that all of our arguments here are "formed" simply from neuronal messages in our brains. My basis is not transcendent, and I am just like you in that I perceive things; we only differ in as what we perceive things to be.

    Quote Originally Posted by DevilDog
    I'm pointing beyond myself to a standard. You can reject that standard if you wish. It is your right as an American to disagree with me and I don't have a problem with it. You draw the completely wrong conclusions from what I said as to the motivation for the punishment but you still have the right to disagree with the standard.
    What "standard" do you speak of? Is it the standard by which you view life or humanity, or is it the standard by which we should consider capital punishment as a decent alternative to life imprisonment? I don't quite understand what standard you are talking about.

    Quote Originally Posted by DevilDog
    What I'm asking you, or anyone else, who disagrees with me for is a standard that goes beyond your opinion. If it's just chemical processes in your brain then, frankly, what difference does it make that your synapses dictate to my synapses what I should do?
    Again, the same question as above applies to your so-called "standard". Of course it is the "chemical processes" in my brain expressing these opinions; what does that have anything to do with anything? None of our opinions are transcendent, and all of our opinions arise from the same anatomy and from the same processes of cognition and reasoning.

    Quote Originally Posted by DevilDog
    I wouldn't bring the Founding Fathers into the discussion. If they inherently disagreed with Capital Punishment, they would not have included a crime that carried Capital Punishment as the penalty.
    I beg to differ. Where is it ever declared that murder will or should be punishable by death? Perhaps I'm missing something major.

    Also, I very much doubt that the founding fathers invented murder.
    Last edited by SniperDevil; 05-13-2005 at 04:08 PM.
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  39. #39
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    No one can be 100% sure that the person did it even if they did confess. So it is not worth takinng the risk and killing an innocent man.
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  40. #40
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    SniperDevil,

    The only thing I'm pointing out is that if our morality doesn't have a basis outside of ourselves, our perceptions, or our "neurons" then it really doesn't carry any moral weight other than a convention. It carries little more weight than a preference of red versus blue.

    My overall point is to demonstrate how our different lenses cause us to look at the world differently. It is not that I have not considered your position, it is just that, based on a transcendental belief system that informs my view, I draw different conclusions.

    You have a belief system, or lens, that forms the basis for your logical conclusions. Your conclusions are not illogical, per se, they are merely formed on the basis of a belief system. I am trying to determine where it comes from.

    Yes, it means that transcendental standards, in your world view would vary so widely that, you argue, how could we pick one. Since you do not claim to have a preference yourself for a particular standard, then shouldn't any standard then be acceptable? If a country uses capital punishment to punish a criminal based on laws that were originally underpinned by a Judeo-Christian ethic then, you may not like that standard, but then you say you don't have an ethic to judge its suitability against. It just seems to grate against you but, again, without a standard, how is it more substantive than your dislike for a particular shade of blue?

    It is, again, not a matter of appealing to logic. You are logical given your a priori assumptions that you take for granted just as others are consistent given their same assumptions. The trick is figuring out where those bases for logic are coming from and testing the world views. I have not chosen my world view in a cavalier fashion but, on the contrary, very deliberately.

    I think you missed my point about the Founding Fathers. My point was that you brought forward the idea in your initial response to me about the principles our country was founded upon. I was responding with the fact that the Founding Fathers included Capital Punishment as the penalty for the crime of treason.
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