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  1. #1
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    Well, guys, DELL is a cheapish brand in computing, OK? Nothing to brag about.
    HP is the number 1 x86 server vendor, it has 30% of the x86 server market. DELL has only 10%. HP is also the number 1 notebook vendor. SUN is a top enterprise vendor. IBM is also a top server vendor, only after HP. They all sell Opteron servers. For instance, HP has Dl145, DL385, DL585, BL25, BL35, BL45 opteron servers and blades, HP's benchmarks show that Opteron beats Xeon. SUN has their V40z and V20z server line and is ready to launch 8 models of galaxy line of Opteron servers. SUN terminated their xeon server line. Cray, the supercomputer vendor, their two of three supercomputers are based on Opteron, one is the XT3, which can have up to 20000 nOpterons, and one is the XD1, with hundreds of Opterons.


    DELL uses AMD as a bargain chip to get deeper discounts from INTEL, so they can sell desktops with 17 inch LCD for $479 today and still make profit. As the recent Japanese investigation shows, INTEL gave big discounts to companies that promise not to use AMD, and that was illegal and INTEL pleaded no contest there and agreed to stop that illegal monopolistic practice in Japan.

    DELL is certainly happy to sell a server that worth only 15K for a price of 35K. It is like a dealer sold you a 15K car for 35K, am I going to say praises for your car? Well, if I just want to make you like me more, I will say what a nice car! if I am an honest and helping person, I will point out that car is a 15K car, so you won't make the same mistake again.

    INTEL blindly copied AMD's manual, but what they delivered was a 36 bit chip, which means your INTEL server can have a maximum ram of 64GB. That is not true 64 bit machine. Furthermore, you can only do DMA at the lower 4GB. It's fake. and it caused a lot of headache for OS developers. I never said INTEL cant copy. What I said was INTEL tried to copy AMD but they could not make a good copy, and their copy is a kludge. Some people think INTEL's copy of AMD64 is as good as AMD, I am telling you that is incorrect.
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  2. #2
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    Originally posted by wm2100
    ....
    Being a past hardware review specialist, I dealt with a lot of benchmarking. The fact of the matter is that the XEON may perform better in a certain application then an OPTERON. It is dependent on how the OS/programs they are utilizing were written and how they function. Overall the Opteron may perform better in most areas, but there are still going to be areas the Xeon kicks butt.
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  3. #3
    Not bad, seems like a mid range pc to carry a good amount of load with. I for one though do personally like using AMD powered servers/pcs.
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  4. #4
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    What I said I can backup with real industrial proven benchmarks.
    All I see from the those opposing my value proposition is just smoke and mirror, or benchmarks without numbers. If you can't argue on technical merits but just repeat DELL is great, this discussion is pointless.

    I have sympathy on those wtih closed minds and carry a foolish religious attitude towards everything. I used to use INTEL before Opteron. If INTEL invents some processor 20% faster at the same price, I will buy it. The reality is, INTEL is 50% more expensive and 50% slower. Though INTEL is working hard on it, it won't have anything similar to Direct Connect Architecture until 2007 or later, by then Opteron will be quad-core, and is upgradable(I am going to buy some dual core Opterons to make my 2P server 4way, I just need to swap the CPUs, and I can still sell the old cpus on ebay).

    I see a clear architecural superiority in Opteron, Direct Connect makes sense, shared bus seems to be primitive design. I can explain that to a 3 year kid and he/she will understand. If you can't agree, it is because your mind is locked ...
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  5. #5
    http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets...spx?i=2397&p=8

    Even your benchmarks show Intel is better at some things. While Opterons are very good chips, Intel is still controls the largest market share. So no matter what benchmark you put up. The one that ultimately counts is marketshare and AMD loses.

    I have sympathy on those wtih closed minds and carry a foolish religious attitude towards everything. I used to use INTEL before Opteron. If INTEL invents some processor 20% faster at the same price, I will buy it. The reality is, INTEL is 50% more expensive and 50% slower.
    Funny, I just bought a couple of dual xeons w/ 73 GB SCSI for a little over $1300, show me a dual opteron w. SCSI and 3 yr. onsite labor for that price and in SeeServers case a dedicated Tech Representative?

    Honestly, it sounds like you have a fetish for all things AMD/Opteron, which isn't a bad thing. The problem is it sounds like you're close minded if someone decides to use Intel by badgering the guy that he bought the wrong hardware.

    Reliability of the Opteron chips still hasn't been proven either. We still use dual PIII 550's for our beater boxes, can't say I have seen and AMD k6/k7's still running in server environments. I also don't see that many people offering sub < 2Ghz AMD's in the low price market, but plenty of PIII's are still around.

    In the end... it's not your $$$ so why trip? You never know, maybe he wanted to keep all his hardware from the same vendor for support purposes or corporate culture.
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  6. #6
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    You can't take the general to the specific anyhow - Opteron may beat everything else in general, that doesn't mean it unequivocally wins in every situation. Unless you know the guys system and code and have benchmarked it, you can in no way say that it will run faster on Opterons. You can really only say in general it prob would.
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  7. #7
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    I think it's funny that we get people with their extremist point of views talking about how other people have extremist point of views...

    Grow up..
    Buy what you want..
    Let everyone else buy what they want..
    Profit....
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  8. #8
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    True, aren't we all in competition here?

    Im fairly stuck to my Opterons because I've used them, and know they fly, others tend to disagree, but so what, so long as my business flies, I couldn't care less if their's runs nice and slowly because they didn't take my advice.

    Dan
    █ Dan Kitchen | Technical Director | Razorblue
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  9. #9
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    You only missed the WHOLE point dan

    I was trying not to take a side and then you came along and ruined it !!!

    Now I have to be anti-AMD..


    just kidding, Anyways Who likes ATI?
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  10. #10
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    ATI as in the people that make graphics cards?

    I prefer them over AMD because their cards don't make my PC's crash
    █ Dan Kitchen | Technical Director | Razorblue
    █ ddi: (+44) (0)1748 900 680 | e: dkitchen@razorblue.com
    █ UK Intensive Managed Hosting, Clusters and Colocation.
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  11. #11
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    I look it differently.

    With Dell, I can buy several (At least 2) dual Xeon servers for the same price I am paying for low end HP Opteron servers (DL145). Surely the two or three dual Xeon servers I have can beat any single dual Opteron servers?
    Fluid Hosting, LLC - Enterprise Cloud Infrastructure: Cloud Shared and Reseller, Cloud VPS, and Cloud Hybrid Server
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  12. #12
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    wm2100 I dont want to call you stupid, but im 99% about to. If this following statment is about my server, your wrong.

    "DELL is certainly happy to sell a server that worth only 15K for a price of 35K."

    The server with 4 Xeons is only $11,716, but when you add 7 300GB SCSI drives, 2 36GB SCSI Drives, redundant power supplies, Raid controlers, etc. It becomes ~29,000$.

    As I told you before, stup the BS till you know100% what your talking about. The Dell server is a VERY good deal.

    Im sorry you disslike Intel you much you have to pester ans annoy everyone in WHT with your crap.

    (waiting to get nastly letter from Mod, but im just sick of the crap)
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  13. #13
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    What I said I can backup with real industrial proven benchmarks.
    All I see from the those opposing my value proposition is just smoke and mirror, or benchmarks without numbers. If you can't argue on technical merits but just repeat DELL is great, this discussion is pointless.
    I don't post often, but I have to say you're a bit ridiculous, I saw you carrying on in that one guys thread about his last major purchase like anyone cared or really asked for your opinion. Quit being a benchmark nazi. Benchmarks tests are standard and are the same configuration across different server setups and so forth, and are not directly related to the particular application or infrastructure someone with a Dual Xeon may be getting an advantage on.

    Benchmarks are great for one thing, nothing. It's great to test technology against other technology, but how about you bench the technology against YOUR technology you will be using, not something that is meant to test a standard. Give it a rest.

    No one said Dell was great either, not a single person said A THING about Dell after your initial post, learn to read Mr. Contrast & Compare. They only were defending that INTEL does have it's place in the market, because certain applications and OSes are catered to INTEL and perform better on it. Hardware is only hardware, software is what tells the hardware what to do, and the hardware is what works with the software.

    I have sympathy on those wtih closed minds and carry a foolish religious attitude towards everything.
    Nice to know you pity yourself. Alls you've done is try to force that AMD is better over INTEL because their technology is ahead of INTEL. Which is very true, but the point people are making is that AMD performs great in some areas, and INTEL performs great in some areas. Neither has a 100% advantage over the other. So really, you're the religious nutcase with your insane views.

    I see a clear architecural superiority in Opteron, Direct Connect makes sense, shared bus seems to be primitive design. I can explain that to a 3 year kid and he/she will understand. If you can't agree, it is because your mind is locked ...
    Once again, I agree with you in Architectural superiority. AMD does have a great design over INTEL for data and so forth. INTEL however STILL DOES PERFORM BETTER THAN AMD IN CERTAIN APPLICATIONS AND OSes.

    So really, the only 3 year old kid that you're explaining this to is yourself. My 3 year old cousin is too busy colouring a book, and has only used a computer to draw in MS Paint, he wouldn't know what I was talking about if I said bus, nor would any of his friends, or anyone at his school. More ridiculous points.

    Now, your last sentence is if you can't agree, then your mind is locked, but isn't yours also? The rebuttle in this thread was that INTEL has ADVANTAGES over AMD just as AMD has ADVANTAGES over INTEL. Intel performs better on certain applications and OSes, and AMD performs better on certain applications and OSes.

    So really, the only locked mind here is you with your nazi benchmark ineudo and continued flaming of Intel and DELL like anyone cares. INTEL serves my purpose fine for my architecture I've built with software, I also have servers that are AMD and Celeron. Each serve a purpose that is uniquely catered to their specific optimizations and advantages for their intended use.

    Thanks, and go away with your crazy argument.
    Shawn R. Lockheart
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  14. #14
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    Let's not argue over who is best because you have better CPU's than each other ... this is about sharing opinion, not bashing each other.

    And uhhh in my other post I meant nVidia not AMD, tiredness setting in
    █ Dan Kitchen | Technical Director | Razorblue
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  15. #15
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    You are getting sleepy!!!

    ok now that your asleep I will convince you to tell everyone that you can how Intel and ATI are bad evil companies with inferior products.

    Why? Because AMD and Nvidia are cool that's why..
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  16. #16
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    Originally posted by SeeServers
    wm2100 I dont want to call you stupid, but im 99% about to. If this following statment is about my server, your wrong.

    "DELL is certainly happy to sell a server that worth only 15K for a price of 35K."

    The server with 4 Xeons is only $11,716, but when you add 7 300GB SCSI drives, 2 36GB SCSI Drives, redundant power supplies, Raid controlers, etc. It becomes ~29,000$.

    As I told you before, stup the BS till you know100% what your talking about. The Dell server is a VERY good deal.

    Im sorry you disslike Intel you much you have to pester ans annoy everyone in WHT with your crap.

    (waiting to get nastly letter from Mod, but im just sick of the crap)
    Sorry dude, if I ruined your celebration.

    But I can't believe DELL sold you crap for $29000, when you can save $10000 for your girl friend. It's you money, dude, and I am trying to help, so stop the foolish insults. You are not DELL, when I say bad things about DELL, you don't have to jump up 15 feet red faced and red necked. You can be a DELL customer and smart the same time.

    If I try retail,
    *)7 300GB SCSI drives costs $6000,
    *) raid controller $800,
    *) 16GB slow PC2100 DDR ram (your dell machine can't use faster ones, I believe), $2200,

    that's less than $9000 total(you can go lower if you shop around), you paid $18000 for it. That's $9000 extra to DELL's pocket. You certainly don't have to buy the HDDs and RAM chips from DELL if they are so expensive.

    So you paid $11000 for barebone 4P Xeon. Is that a good deal?

    Let's look at this page
    http://www.dsgtechnologies.com/servers/iopenr4424a.html

    They have a loaded quad-opteron (4 x Opteron 850, 4GB ram, 3.2TB, Raid) for $13,000. How much is a bare machine, well, we can substract the ram and hdd and raid controller, you deduct about $5000. so an 4 way opteron 850 barebone costs around $9000..... not a huge difference from your $11000 figure. but remember, this opteron server is also much faster than quad xeon with 400MHZ shared bus.
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  17. #17
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    There is a Huge differance purchasing from Dell and purchasing from a 3 year old website that contains an "overclockers corner".

    If you want to make this argument use an Enterprise vendor not something that can be found on pricewatch.
    Last edited by Dave W; 05-02-2005 at 09:08 PM.
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  18. #18
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    By the way - wm2100's posting history makes for great reading, everyone
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  19. #19
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    OMG LOL internet
    wm2100 :
    Your Sempron 2800 is a 1.6GHZ Socket 754 chip with hypertransport technology and embedded memory controller and NX bit buffer overflow protection. This chip is close to Opteron 140 and is much better than a Xeon 2.8GHZ, which has no hypertransport (old shared bus technology) and no embedded mem controller (a seperate chip sitting outside CPU and compete for the narrow 533 mhz bus)
    Last edited by Dave W; 05-02-2005 at 09:31 PM.
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  20. #20
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    that's less than $9000 total(you can go lower if you shop around), you paid $18000 for it. That's $9000 extra to DELL's pocket. You certainly don't have to buy the HDDs and RAM chips from DELL if they are so expensive.
    Jesus.. did you not read the entirety of his purchase either, he also purchased ONSITE TECH SUPPORT, which also isn't cheap.

    Dell is an established company, you aren't. Your little ramblings are cute and generally misinformed as well as highly naive, and while your base argument is sound with the technology standards and differences in 'price'. The simple guarantee of product performance, tech support, and so forth that was purchased from Dell is also included in the price tag, as is the quality assurance.

    Now, before anyone starts attacking me with all of their dead Dell CPUs, I understand their DESKTOP line blows nuggets, and they have a few bad eggs in their server lines. However, I can assure you if he has the support package he said he has, those will not be issues, as Dell will do what they can to get things up and going quickly and accurately, or they will pay the price. That's the assurance given with it, and the price tag is justified in that respect.

    The end.

    As for this..

    Your Sempron 2800 is a 1.6GHZ Socket 754 chip with hypertransport technology and embedded memory controller and NX bit buffer overflow protection. This chip is close to Opteron 140 and is much better than a Xeon 2.8GHZ, which has no hypertransport (old shared bus technology) and no embedded mem controller (a seperate chip sitting outside CPU and compete for the narrow 533 mhz bus)
    That's the most ridiculous and ill-informed piece of information I've ever seen.
    Shawn R. Lockheart
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  21. #21
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    I really don't understand DELL customers and DELL.
    We are into 64 bit computing for 2 years now. Linux went 64 bit 2 years ago. Microsoft released windows x64 for opteron. INTEL has tried to catch up on. But still, there are DELL customers willing to pay $30K for 32 bit crap armed with 16 GB ram (meaning your 32 system has to jump around all the time to use the ram).

    This is unbelievable.

    Go to http://www.intel.com/products/processor/xeon/index.htm
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  22. #22
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    Originally posted by keepr
    There is a Huge differance purchasing from Dell and purchasing from a 3 year old website that contains an "overclockers corner".

    If you want to make this argument use an Enterprise vendor not something that can be found on pricewatch.
    DELL? a screw driver company. what does DELL make in their server??

    HP, SUN and IBM design their own servers. DELL is just an assembler, and I doubt some cheap labor in India can do better job screwing screws than some American workers here.

    DELL tech support? Yeah, they outsoruced that to India, and go learn some Indian English.
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  23. #23
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    DELL tech support? Yeah, they outsoruced that to India, and go learn some Indian English.
    and... HP, Compaq.. and the like haven't.. ok.

    Also, that's over the phone, I doubt a Dell tech who has onsite duties is going to catch the morning flight from india to your house.

    Besides, this is corporate class, you're thinking residential division, Home & Office and whatnot. This is the enterprise division, much different.
    Shawn R. Lockheart
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  24. #24
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    Ok, Again your referring to dell's Retail market...

    Obviously you have not had any experiance with their enterprise division. Perhaps you should take a look at their gold support plans and adjust your stance on that a bit.

    http://www1.us.dell.com/content/topi...=04&l=en&s=bsd

    http://www.dell.com/downloads/global...s/dellgold.mpg
    Last edited by Dave W; 05-02-2005 at 09:44 PM.
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  25. #25
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    Let me summarize why SeeServers made a bad purchasing decision (dude, face it)

    1) 32 bit server in a 64 bit era. Xeon MP 3GHZ is a 32 bit chip, no EM64T support.

    2) No CPU upgrade path, this xeon mp 3.0 GHZ/4MB is at its end of life. INTEL's newer Xeon MPs runs at higher FSB (633MHZ instead of 400MHZ). In comparison, if one buys an Opteron, he can upgrade by using faster cpus or multi-core cpus.

    3) No software upgrade path, all new CPUs will be 64 bit mid next year. 32 bit software will be obsolete too.

    4) Outdated architecture, shared bus design. a lot of bus contention.

    5) to make matter worse, the bus is only 400MHZ, with total bandwidth of only 4.8GB/sec shared by 4 CPUs. In comparison, Quad Opteron 850 CPU has a bandwidth of 56GB/s, more than 10 times of Xeon.

    6) worse performance

    of course, all these are under the context of price/performance comparision. If DELL sells it for $499, it might be a good deal, but it is selling it for 30K.
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