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  1. #1
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    Thumbs down Peer1 drops TorIX, Politics over Peering, thoughts?

    Well guys,

    It would appear that this week, there has been a great upset in the manner in which Peer1 operates:

    It would appear that as of Monday, Gary (the Toronto site manager, one of the key figures for Peer1 Toronto) no longer works for Peer1; whether he left, or was fired, I have no idea (I just know he's no longer with Peer1, and his access has been removed).

    Now as of yesterday, Peer1 has begun killing off their TorIX (Toronto Internet Exchange, www.torix.net ) peering sessions with various parties. This was done without any real notice, and has been floating around the TorIX operators list. An email from Vee at Peer1 indicated the following (when someone emailed to ask what was going on):

    >>>"Vee" <[email protected]> 04/27/05 3:46 pm >>>
    For now we are leaving the torix link down if you wish to reestablish
    peering please consider setting up peer at our internet open exchange.
    For more details please see:

    http://www.peer1.net/en/peering.asp


    Vee
    Network Engineer/Peering Coordinator
    Peer 1 Network
    #2100-555 West Hastings Street
    Vancouver, BC V6B 4N5
    Office: (604) 683-7747 Fax: (604) 683-4634
    Network Operations (24hrs) : 604-484-2588 1-866-484-2588
    Website: http://www.peer1.net
    Email: [email protected]
    Live To ride/Ride to Live!
    As some of you may know, TorIX (Toronto Internet Exchange) is the largest IX in Canada, with old, and new peers, who are just gigantic (Rogers, Google, Akamai, Globe and Mail, etc.).

    PIX however is Peer1's attempt at an IX, which links Toronto and Vancouver (Montreal is listed, has been for over a year, but does not exist apparently as even Peer1 isn't "active"). PIX has been totally unsucessfull (from what I can see), as it's barely grown, and does not represent an attractive peering list (at least not to me). My understanding is that PIX has actually shrunk in the past year, after loosing a peer or two to some off non-technical/service related issues (advertising their names or something).

    Basically what it boils down to by my unstanding is that Peer1 is removing/has removed their entire presence from TorIX, and has sent out notices to people who have asked regarding the session, trying to force people to peer on PIX. As a potential PIX peer, personally I find this extremely disturbing that they would turn down their TorIX sessions with no notice whatsoever, as what assurances does one have that they wouldn't do even worse with PIX.

    What does everyone else think about this? To me, it looks like Peer1 has become confused on their actual size/place in the market. Trying to displace TorIX members in an attempt force them to use PIX doesen't exactly seem like a terribly well thought out move, nor does it produce any good-will (which is what TorIX is full of, being non-profit and whatnot).

    *All* Peer1 customers now have a few less direct routes in their access, thus their quality of service has been degraded as a result of this attempt to bully a market.

  2. #2
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    Anywhere we can get more info on this? I never heard anything about it yet, dropping the toronto exchange is a real dissappointment for anyone on the network. Although from my understanding PIX doesn't seem so bad, it could result in lower operating costs for some, although its still not on par with the TorIX.

  3. #3
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    Originally posted by u2mike
    Anywhere we can get more info on this? I never heard anything about it yet, dropping the toronto exchange is a real dissappointment for anyone on the network. Although from my understanding PIX doesn't seem so bad, it could result in lower operating costs for some, although its still not on par with the TorIX.
    This was being discussed on the TorIX ops mail list, so only TorIX peers were really privy to this information initially, which was only yesterday afternoon (only the authorized representatives of a given peer can get on the ops list, aka owners/admins).

    The problem with PIX (from my POV) is the fact that there are no serious "eyeball networks" on it, its almost exclusively hosting providers (which makes it unbalanced, the key component to a sucessfull IX is balance after all), I mean lets investigate the peers:

    - Allstream - Already on TorIX, signing requirements and minimums are at a level that prevents anyone from really peering, if you can meet their requirements, chances are you'll want a private link.
    - BCNET - No idea
    - BC GOV/SPAN - Does the British Columbia government offices really present a good peering partner? Maybe for 5kbps.
    - Data Fortress - Hosting provider, only usefull to an end user driven network
    - EI CATALYST CORP - Already on TorIX, Hosting provider
    - ILAP - Hosting provider, already on TorIX, only usefull to an end user drive network
    - NETNATION - Hosting provider, only usefull to an end user driven network
    - Peer1 - Was on TorIX, owns PIX, and are unlikely to peer if they think they can sell you transit instead.
    - Q9 - Hosting Provider, already on TorIX , only usefull to an end user drive network
    - Shaw - Already on TorIX, Moderate sized end user network
    - UNISERVE - No idea, new.

    Basically Priority Colo didn't peer on PIX because we didn't project that based on the current peers (which haven't really changed in the past year), that we would be able to realistically push over 1/50 of what we push to TorIX on a consistent basis (as we're not going to bother with a second peering session with guys already on TorIX). Given that, I couldn't even justify the cost of the cross connect to PIX, even though we're just next door.
    Last edited by porcupine; 04-28-2005 at 03:18 AM.

  4. #4
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    I see what your saying to some extent. Although there are some key end user networks there. Shaw is a big one, the shaw/bigpipe network is massive and will connect you to alot of canadians. From what I've heard about BCNet they work with telus which would link you with adsl users accross the country. Then theres Uniserve, its a small-medium size ISP, provides adsl/dialup accross canada, although they aren't that big yet afaik.

    So it will connect you to alot of canadians, although not to the same extent the TorIX did. I think PIX is great, but moving to force people to use it was a premature move IMO. They should have worked to get some more networks before making any sort of move like this.
    Last edited by Captian_Spike; 04-28-2005 at 05:22 AM.

  5. #5
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    This can be a real shock for some as peer1 is a very popular DC around in Canada. They are having there management going well till now. We never had any chance to get in touch with there services but we have heard many good things about them. I hope this all gets resolved very soon.

  6. #6
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    I don't want to sound like I support this move anymore than the next guy, however I am noticing better performance to my equipment in their New York facility than I ever did when they were in with TorIX (mainly because I went Toronto -> Montreal -> New York, and how I go:

    PHP Code:
       09    34 ms    35 ms    36 ms  p0-2-0.a1.wash.broadwing.net [216.140.8.90]
     
    10    35 ms    36 ms    37 ms  G2-6.rp0.asbn.broadwing.net [216.140.8.170]
     
    11    39 ms    39 ms    38 ms  equinixexchange.peer1.net [206.223.115.30]
     
    12    39 ms    40 ms    40 ms  GIG5-0.nyc-75bre-dis-1.peer1.net [216.187.115.229]
     
    13    40 ms    38 ms    38 ms  216.187.115.145
     14    40 ms    38 ms    40 ms  64.34.45.11 
    I'd be curious to know what other people are seeing in terms of performance before I can really say whether or not it was a good move.

    Keep us posted Myles!!
    Robert Donaldson | Netivex
    Toronto | Dedicated Servers

  7. #7
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    Beyond interesting!


    Personally I can't exactly say much - except that I consider it silly!
    I see it as one of those 'bite of your nose despite your face' type of arrangements but who can tell - it's early.

    Sounds like someone is having a hissy fit.
    Last edited by David; 04-28-2005 at 09:19 AM.
    David
    Web hosting by Fused For businesses with more important things to do than worry about their hosting.

  8. #8
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    Originally posted by Netivex
    I don't want to sound like I support this move anymore than the next guy, however I am noticing better performance to my equipment in their New York facility than I ever did when they were in with TorIX (mainly because I went Toronto -> Montreal -> New York, and how I go:

    PHP Code:
       09    34 ms    35 ms    36 ms  p0-2-0.a1.wash.broadwing.net [216.140.8.90]
     
    10    35 ms    36 ms    37 ms  G2-6.rp0.asbn.broadwing.net [216.140.8.170]
     
    11    39 ms    39 ms    38 ms  equinixexchange.peer1.net [206.223.115.30]
     
    12    39 ms    40 ms    40 ms  GIG5-0.nyc-75bre-dis-1.peer1.net [216.187.115.229]
     
    13    40 ms    38 ms    38 ms  216.187.115.145
     14    40 ms    38 ms    40 ms  64.34.45.11 
    I'd be curious to know what other people are seeing in terms of performance before I can really say whether or not it was a good move.

    Keep us posted Myles!!
    Just a FYI, thats unrelated to TorIX. TorIX traffic goes to providers "end users" only (eg. from one peering participant to the other), and Broadwing isn't a TorIX participant, thus thats simply a change in Peer1's routing (or someone else's).

  9. #9
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    u2mike, remember, when you're talking peering, not every downstream customer (and rarely/never their uplink, or peers) necessarilly gets routed/announced at that exchange (eg. say Teleglobe peered at TorIX, but didn't announce Bell, one of their downstream customers).

    Shaw is already on TorIX (thus that only benefits people in Vancouver, as we have a better link to Shaw), BCNet probably doesen't have any telus routes advertised to TorIX (as I doubt Telus pushes any transit/traffic over them, see below), so thats probably a moot potential, etc.

    I'm fairly sure it was Telus was actually on PIX last year (the peer that left), but disconnected after a dispute regarding advertising/use of their name (cant remember the specifics, but they were offended and terminated their relationship as a result).

    Doing a quick count on the TorIX peers, TorIX currently has 56 peers, 55 accepting (Videotron isn't accepting), and over a dozen being major players. Looks like PIX has around 11 peers, 11 accepting (doesen't really say) and 1 major player.

    Only terribly relavent email that arrived today thus far (its still early granted):

    The most irritating part is that there wasn't any notification - the note below was in response to my email to their NOC asking why the session was down.

    It's their call if they want to terminate our connection at TORIX and try to force us to move to their PIX, but if this was a policy decision it'd be common courtesy to send out a note before-hand instead of just dropping everything one sunny afternoon and leaving us scratching our heads.

    I'm curious if there was a technical issue, since the session bounced a couple of times before remaining down. Perhaps they're treating the TORIX link as "fix issues if there's time" peering and their PIX connections as higher quality.
    Incidentally, I forgot to note one thing. They dropped the session during the afternoon, on a 27th, without notice. As you know, traffic has to re-route elsewhere, which means that for many providers, as many parties are likely to take the same route to get to Peer1 (or any customers they might have announced). For those parties, 95th percentile will surely be affected for March (aka they've been peering the entire month, but these last 3.5 days will skew their 95th percentiles). Doesen't sound like much, and probably isn't (for most) but for some of the smaller guys, this is potentially salt in the wound, even if it is only a few megabits.
    Last edited by porcupine; 04-28-2005 at 09:54 AM.

  10. #10
    Just a question? Desn't anyone have a peering agreement with Peer1, if not maybe this is something you should have in place with your peers it would give you a big stick to beat them with.

  11. #11
    Join Date
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    People generally only have agreements with parties who push the issue (eg. Rogers, ORANO, etc. require signed agreements). TorIX after all is about good-will (as the entire IX is non-profit), thus it's generally not seen as necessary. Personally we dont have any peering with Peer1, as we buy transit from them (the two dont really mesh after all).

    Even if Peer1 has broken signed agreements though, it's unlikely they'll be persued in any legal manner, it is Canada after all (and stereotypical as this may sound, lawyers enter the game far less often).

  12. #12
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    porcupine,

    I've heard what you just said about Allstream being restrictive, however, that has not been my experience. When I was at NSC we had settlement-free peering with them via Equinix GigE Exchange. They came to us, we did not go to them.

  13. #13
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    Originally posted by NSCNAP Jeff
    porcupine,

    I've heard what you just said about Allstream being restrictive, however, that has not been my experience. When I was at NSC we had settlement-free peering with them via Equinix GigE Exchange. They came to us, we did not go to them.
    It totally depends on who you are, what volume you push, and how much of that is to them (obviously). Clearly we dont push enough, as I've never been approached, while we've asked around before, the requirements (at TorIX) seemed somewhat excessive. While we do push a fair chunk of traffic to various peers, clearly not enough for Allstreams liking.

  14. #14
    Myles,


    While I agree lawyers enter the issue far less in Canada (I'm Canadian, but have worked alot in both US and Canada) a peering agreement would have likely kept Peer1 from doing this as they would have not been willing to expose themselves the legal liability. This is why the big guys for the issue for peering agreements.

    I'm understand the good will aspects of TORIX and fully support it, however there is seriuos business issues around peering so it is in everyone's best intrest to have a peering agreement signed and in place, IMO.

  15. #15
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    I'm obviously not happy about that, they did the same thing with QIX in Quebec. BTW has anyone been affected by yesterdays loss of the Chicago->Toronto connection at Peer1 ? I haven't but some of my customers got calls from MCI trying to get them to move over to their network because of that how stupid.
    Jean-Pierre Abboud / I'm the TekGURU
    www.Gotekky.com / Managed and Self-Managed hosting solutions
    Toll free: 1.888.915.4400 / Local: 1.514.316.1885 / Live chat
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  16. #16
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    Sorry, I should have been more specific with my post. What I was referring to is that ever since I can remember (and up until very very recently) all my traffic would go Home -> My ISP -> Torix -> Peer1 Toronto -> Peer1 Montreal -> Peer1 New York ... I know nothing has changed on my ISP's side, and it could very well be a decision on Peer1's part, just thought it was interesting how these seemed to coincide.

    rd

    Originally posted by porcupine
    Just a FYI, thats unrelated to TorIX. TorIX traffic goes to providers "end users" only (eg. from one peering participant to the other), and Broadwing isn't a TorIX participant, thus thats simply a change in Peer1's routing (or someone else's).
    Robert Donaldson | Netivex
    Toronto | Dedicated Servers

  17. #17
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  18. #18
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    Here's what happened....Yesterday we had a low memory condition on one
    of our routers, the quick fix was to bring down our link to TORIX.

    On another front, I thought we would let you know that for over a year
    now Peer 1 Network has been revamping it's peering policies and decided
    to move to private peering arrangements or setting up peering sessions
    with those willing to use our high performance Internet exchange at the
    PIX. I can tell you that at the Pix-Vancouver and Pix-Toronto we run
    well over 600Mb to these exchanges. We are going to re-enable the TORIX
    peering for another month terminating at the end of May. I encourage
    those who wish to peer with us to plug into the PIX and yes Krzysztof it
    is free to join and we are at 151 front. Were not looking to make anyone
    hate us or think we hate TORIX, simply put we are moving forward.

    Vee
    Network Engineer/Peering Coordinator
    Peer 1 Network
    #2100-555 West Hastings Street
    Vancouver, BC V6B 4N5
    Office: (604) 683-7747 Fax: (604) 683-4634
    Network Operations (24hrs) : 604-484-2588 1-866-484-2588
    Website: http://www.peer1.net
    Email: [email protected]
    Live To ride/Ride to Live!
    Looks like they're definatly leaving TorIX, not the best way of going about things.

  19. #19
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    Apr 2004
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    This is BAD news. One of the big reasons I am staying with Peer1 is because it was a good tool when marketing to Canadian businesses, who could get insane speeds.

    Maybe this will lower their *ahem* high data transfer costs and maybe even get some people on staff 24x7 in their Front street facility. Tho I have to say that their service is terrific, no downtime, ever for me. EVER.

  20. #20
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    Originally posted by cyman
    This is BAD news. One of the big reasons I am staying with Peer1 is because it was a good tool when marketing to Canadian businesses, who could get insane speeds.

    Maybe this will lower their *ahem* high data transfer costs and maybe even get some people on staff 24x7 in their Front street facility. Tho I have to say that their service is terrific, no downtime, ever for me. EVER.
    Unfortunatly thats not likely to happen.

    TorIX is one of the few non-profit IIX's out there (and it's registered as such), somewhat of a "by the members, for the members" project. Peer1's only expense is their cross connect to the TorIX fabric (as it's within STDconnections [www.stdconnections.com ] and Switch and Data [www.switchanddata.com ] space), and the prot on their own network. Cross connects are a *very* minimal fee (we're talking $100/mo for FE, or ~$200/mo for Fiber through STD).

    Considering their 1 Young st. location doesen't have 24x7 onsite, the only thing that I could see getting them 24x7 downtown would be filling up their new space up on the 8th floor of 151. If it came to it, I'd guess the 24x7 would be located at the 1 Young street location, and the tech would commute between the two (as they're obviously going to want to market their own location harder then the carrier neutral location, and 1 young is an office building, suited for office space, 151 front is far from that).

    Notably since Gary was let go, it seems like they took two steps back in that direction (they need to replace him before they can even start thinking about 24x7 onsite).

    Its a real shame that we pay a premium in TO while things sometimes seem to be getting worse, whereas people in other Peer1 locations (eg. NYC) pay peanuts in comparison (I'd guess around 1/2 - 1/4 the rate based on figures I've received before, and promotions posted to places like WHT).

  21. #21
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    Myles,

    At the same time you can use the location to your advantage - marketing.

    //but I wouldn't stick with peer1 Toronto - I mean just stick with the Toronto region.
    David
    Web hosting by Fused For businesses with more important things to do than worry about their hosting.

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