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04-18-2005, 08:41 AM #26Disabled
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now, about the question left -
which hosts as a routine do backups and do not somewhere hide in the TOs bacup is resonsiblity of the purchaser
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04-18-2005, 08:52 AM #27Web Hosting Master
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Most at the lower end host would have to cut corners so they probably don't have any backups. If they do, it probably just a backup to a second harddisk. Even if they do have, it is a good policy to do your own backups.
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04-18-2005, 11:04 AM #28Web Hosting Master
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Most hosts would/should still make it the responsibility of the customer to maintain a backup. This doesnt mean they dont do backups themselves.
Backups are not really a cost cutter - its a liability issue.
If you tell your customers they can rely on your backups, and then something was to go wrong and you had no backup they could hold you liable.
By stating in a TOS that the customer is responsible for their own backups, this removes the liability... regardless of if you actually run backups or not.
For example, we keep our own remote daily backups, but these are not accessible by or relyed upon by our customer.Matt Wallis
United Communications Limited
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04-18-2005, 11:21 AM #29Disabled
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Hosts are "host"s - so may be they shud do backups which are reliable too , hosts are not just "server"s , serving out files appropriately or are they that ?
It will be interesting to know which hosts have their own data center and do backups reliably too , other factors like support etc remaining same these shud be the clinchers .
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04-18-2005, 11:23 AM #30Web Hosting Master
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Who said hosts dont do reliable backups? Im sure many hosts do highly reliable backups... that doesnt change the liability viewpoint and the fact that in this day and age you have to cover your back!
Matt Wallis
United Communications Limited
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04-18-2005, 11:24 AM #31Invented the Internet
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Backups can and do become corrupted. Unless you're willing to shell out big bucks for multiple redundant backups...it is reasonable to expect that your host has system-wide backups of user data in the event of a hardware failure. Its not reasonable to expect that these backups will be 100% reliable 100% of the time. You should always backup your own data, just in case.
--Tina
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04-18-2005, 01:16 PM #32Retired Moderator
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A host could offer backups and assume liability in case the backups are corrupted. Question is, what would be the price for hosting in that case.
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04-18-2005, 07:40 PM #33Web Hosting Master
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Definitely not for the $7 to $8/mth customers
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04-18-2005, 08:01 PM #34Disabled
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so what amount of $ ensures liable backups ?
hard drive prices are low and some practical backups can be done by hosts I think rather than just mentioning in TOS in small letters that its customer's responsibility
I appreciate UH-Matts
"Who said hosts dont do reliable backups? Im sure many hosts do highly reliable backups... that doesnt change the liability viewpoint and the fact that in this day and age you have to cover your back!"
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04-18-2005, 08:03 PM #35Invented the Internet
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It has nothing to do with hard drive prices, etc. It has to do with the fact that, by nature, electronic data can be corrupted. In order to ensure reliability - a host would have to have backups of backups of backups in multiple locations. At that point, it becomes expensive and not worth it for a $5 a month hosting account.
--Tina
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04-18-2005, 08:04 PM #36Disabled
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owning own datacenters may be perhaps a help in keeping better backups ??
and as per reports of this forum there are *good* own-dc--owned hosts who offer shared hosting at $8 .....
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04-18-2005, 08:08 PM #37Disabled
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@ Tina
multiple locations means multiple geographical location ??
if hard drive prices are low and we have high speed data cable can some one not just copy the dat every evening or night ?
electronic data can get corrupted but a knowledgable techie gets enough warning if he is doing regular drive checkups and maintainance .... i guess so
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04-18-2005, 08:11 PM #38Invented the Internet
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Originally posted by mahut
@ Tina
multiple locations means multiple geographical location ??
if hard drive prices are low and we have high speed data cable can some one not just copy the dat every evening or night ?
electronic data can get corrupted but a knowledgable techie gets enough warning if he is doing regular drive checkups and maintainance .... i guess so
Yes, but all of that costs $$$...which isn't cost-effective to offer for the host when you're talking a $4 a month hosting account.
--Tina
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04-18-2005, 08:22 PM #39Web Hosting Master
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Hard drives may be cheap but if you are talking about reliable data, you need more than just standard hard drives, you need systems built for the purpose of backups such as NAS or SAN to begin with. You also need to have redundancy for the data backup.
Data transfers can get corrupted, harddisks may fail. Anything might happened. I would think there are too much variables which could add to the failure.
Databases which are not closed may not get backuped. A site which got hacked may have corrupted data which may be backup. So restoring corrupted data would not fix the issue.
I don't think that it is too much trouble for the web site owner to do their own backup. If they are designing the website off line before uploading them, they could always backup the design work on CD-R or some other media. Then just do regular backup of the database files.
Most of the control panels that I know does allow users to backup their own data and download a copy.
I mean you cannot insist on the web host to do everything for you.
At $4/mth , I am not sure how many people would do so much for 13cents a day and yet be profitable.
I have two servers myself and each day I have it to do daily backups on a local drive and at the same time do a remote backup of the site data. At the same time, I keep a copy locally here just in case. I still insist my customers do their own backups. It is just good practise.
The important thing is to make tons of backups so if one fails, you can use the next one.
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04-18-2005, 08:24 PM #40Disabled
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no i was not speaking of multiple geographical locs , just multiple hard drives if you are owning your own hard drive center ....
also if properly experinced hard drives do give warning before they just "fail" - so with own dc and proper knowledge i think "practical" backups can be the liability of host ( and also asking the customer to keep his own "just in caes" ) and that wont cost $$$ may be just $
and i was not speaking of $4 ..probably $8 and that makes a $48 difference a year and near $150 difference in 3 years, a span a wisely purchased well maintained harddrive is expected to work with prior warnings if it ever fails in that period
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04-18-2005, 08:28 PM #41Disabled
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well to put it correctly or may be i have modified my view :
the host shud not say " you just do your back up - i am not responsible"
rather shud say " i am also doing - see , this rae the electronic limitations - so you also do "
and mind it that $4 and $ 8 are whole lot differnet - a faithful customer for 5 years will bring nearly $250 more than a $4 customer. i guess i was speaking about $7 to $8 all the time before Tina lowered me to $4 suddenly
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04-18-2005, 08:30 PM #42Invented the Internet
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Didn't mean to lower you!
Seriously, I think most hosts do have backups (we do!) - but, to cover our butts, we always say that YOU are responsible for your own backups.
--Tina
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04-18-2005, 08:30 PM #43Web Hosting Master
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The point of multiple geographical locations is to ensure redundancy. Keeping backups in the same place would not really ensure much security because what if the datacenter burns down, got broken into or a short circuit cause some hardware to fail. Doing it remotely would reduce the chances of that from happening.
Harddisk failure is one thing but there are data corruption which are caused by other issues such as a compromised machine, badly written software or simply that the customers deleted or overwritten their own data.
Liability is a big issue because a host may charge you $8/mth but a customer may claims that their web site makes them $500 a day and that each day the site is not up they lose that much money. If you shift the liability to the web host then for the $8/mth they charge you they will have to ensure that all your data are good and proper and if it fails, it needs to compensate you for the loss of income.
As it is, $8/mth is already very little profits for the web host, how much more do you want to see the web host suffer and die ?
Would you work for $8 a month ?Last edited by eddy2099; 04-18-2005 at 08:37 PM.
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04-18-2005, 08:34 PM #44Web Hosting Master
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mahut, I dont think your seeing the big picture when we talk about "liability".
$48 a year is pocket money... its peanuts... its nothing.
Any decent host is going to use its terms of service to limit itself and its liability, especially when it comes to customer data, and... backups.
Yes, we do all keep regular backups, yes those backups are going to be working, and are almost certainly good enough for customers to rely on them.... but why admit that when you dont have to? Isnt it better to tell your customers to keep a backup aswell? Why open yourself, as a host, to more possible problems... when you dont have to... As eddy pointed out, if you assume liability and cant deliver then even the smallest of clients may try a lawsuit or similar action for hundreds of dollars...
I certainly wouldnt want to take on such liability for $48 a year.... or $480 a year for that matter, its not worth the risk when there are plenty of customers will to take a few minutes of time to keep their own backup.
You will find its the smaller, newer hosts who are willing to try and sell packages based on "backups" as a feature of their service. They arent aware of the problems of liability until they experience it first hand... unfortunately.
</rant>Matt Wallis
United Communications Limited
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04-18-2005, 08:42 PM #45Web Hosting Master
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I certainly wouldnt want to take on such liability for $48 a year.... or $480 a year for that matter, its not worth the risk when there are plenty of customers will to take a few minutes of time to keep their own backup.
Assuming that it is the host fault that the site goes down, most would either waive that month's fees or do a pro-rated refund. If a host offers you a $8 a month hosting than the extend of their liability would be restricted to that $8 a month and nothing more.
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04-18-2005, 08:49 PM #46Disabled
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Uh- Matta thanks
but read above I have said
"well to put it correctly or may be i have modified my view :
the host shud not say " you just do your back up - i am not responsible"
rather shud say " i am also doing - see , this rae the electronic limitations - so you also do "
and I was not speaking of $48 - but $96
and as i said gramatically webhosts are not "hosts" then , just "servers"
"its the smaller, newer hosts who are willing to try and sell packages based on "backups" as a feature of their service. They arent aware of the problems of liability until they experience it first hand... unfortunately." - this should be a sticky thread or added in sticky tutorial .... its a valid point if "smaller, newer hosts " agree
owning ur own dc perhaps help to cover better backups ?? ??
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04-18-2005, 08:59 PM #47Web Hosting Master
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I don't think that having your own datacenter would get you better backups. It just mean that you own the datacenter. If it is just one datacenter in a single location then there is no real redundancy there. A simple fuse blown could take down the whole datacenter and there goes the backup system.
I would think that as the rest have stated, web hosts do perform some form of backup but they cannot guarantee that the backup can be restored or that they will assume liability.
However, I would think that the 'Do your own backup' still applied. In times of failure, a web host can help you retrieve your data for you and if that fails, they could get you to restore your backup.
So the issue about doing your own backup is still important.
If the web host cannot recover the data for one reason or another, do not blame them. Do not push the liability to them or the responsibility.
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04-18-2005, 09:10 PM #48Disabled
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good even small good dc s have redundant power or at least ups i think - why a blown fuse will blow away so far stored data ?
having own dc helps in that cases like i remember a webhost of mine took 3 or more days to carry a new hd downstream to the dc
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04-18-2005, 09:14 PM #49Disabled
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'"Do your own backup' and I am not responsible"
"we do backups but you also do just in case its needed" are two different things two different messages for a potential customer at $8 plus per month
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04-18-2005, 09:16 PM #50Disabled
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"Do your own backup' and I am not responsible"
and if this is the statement it shud be mentioned equally visibly in feature list rather than "hiding" it somewhere in tos / fine print