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  1. #1
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    Computing Professionals lacking in Status?

    Have been thinking about this and would certainly appreciate all your input on this.

    Do you think professionals in the computing industry lacks status and prestige in society? Specially when compared to other professionals such as doctors, engineers, architects or even people such as senior managers, senior marketing officers etc?

    Why do you think this might be so? Do you think that it is fair, or does computing professionals just don't deserve as much respect as the others? Is the contribution of computing professionals undervalued? Should we fight for more recognition?

    Thanks for whatever input you might have.
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  2. #2
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    Most of the job fields you listed require some formal education. Computer professionals often have years of experience but little formal training.

    But the real problem is that there are too many computer people that label themselves as "experts" but know very little about the profession. Their saturation into the employment market has devalued IT professionals in general. I've had the displeasure of working with them side-by-side at various locations. I've observed people that entered the IT field seeking higher pay and prestige only to find they didn't like the field, and they stay in the field becuase they're afraid to change to something else.

    It isn't helping that larger vendors are outsourcing their support to people they called "technical support" but are little more than mindless script-reading zombies. To a layman they're as much a computer professional as the IT department at the office.

    This is an interesting topic, I'm sure there are other reasons I'm not thinking of. I hope others share.
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  3. #3
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    and the deluge of Devry techs.....

    consider the plumber or refrigerator repair man is probably making more than a lot of pc techs out there...

  4. #4
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    I am always getting calls to go fix computers after they've been worked on by the so called "Geek Squad" at the Best Buy locations. Places like them cause the issues you are talking about..

  5. #5
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    That is because everyone thinks that they are a computer tech or network engineer. How many times have you heard " I want to do something complicated with my computer/network. Could you just tell me which buttons to push?"

    Most people don't think that IT is a skilled trade, but at the same time these people would never cosider asking a plumber how to do it themselves, but they think nothing of trying to get free advice / labor out of you.

  6. #6
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    Good thread...

    Been in this industry for 10 years, took formal training but to be honest with everyone, it's great for the Cert's, etc... but it means jack $#@& when it comes to real world situtations and experience.

    I used to work for a guy that called himself an "expert", actually a "network expert" and "systems expert" and a "virus expert", but man, this guy was a clown when it came right down to it, I left and started my own business and NEVER looked back, he's out of business now after a lawsuit sunk him.

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  7. #7
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    Been thinking about it more. While I agree that there are alot of unqualified people out there who claims to be Computing Professionals, and they are indeed contributing to the lack of respect for computing professionals. Maybe it does have something to do with the lack of strict industry regulation. As in doctors will need to go through many paperwork with the relevant authorities, professional bodies etc. to be actually certified as 'doctors' and be allowed to practice, but any fool can call themselves a programmer, technician, computer expert.

    But I do believe that people still lack respect for the 'real' computing professionals.

    Think Bill Gates, Larry Ellison, Steve Jobs and all the other big time industry names you can think of. Most of them are pictured in more of a lucky guy who struck it rich. More emphasis is placed on their 'luck' and business sense then on their programming skills.

    And admit it, everyone, including you and me, feels there is much more status if you are an engineer building buildings or a doctor healing the sick a senior manager overseeing a host of workers, than a programmer who sits in front of a 15 inch screen everyday churning out lines upon lines of code each day. And even if the same amount of effort and knowledge is required for the same job, engineers who built the world's talleset tower is still more revered than those who created the software that runs on everyone's computers, even though the latter are probably those who are filthy rich.

    I think terms such as computer scientist, software engineers, software architects etc. are just names coined in to help raise the status of computing professionals in the industry. Yet, when people hear the term software engineer (or heck, let's throw in the term senior software engineers) it just doesn't generate as much awe and respect as a civil or mechanical engineer.

    Just a few pretty random ideas I got, would really appreciate if people can add more to it.
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  8. #8
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    While the common middle class people like us dont think much of ourselves, in reality, the upper class think a lot of us. I mean the doctors, lawyers, engineers, etc. Friends of mine dont like "The Woodlands" which is full of huge houses, quite a few mansions (elevators, theatres - one I know of is made of all steel) and snobs. I reply that I dont have a problem with people, and my friends know why.

    When I am called into such a home, I walk in confident. They may be better than me in public on the street because they have more money than me.... but right there, in "their" homes, I am better than them because I have the knowledge. I easily talk above them and bring them down a few notches, suddenly, they are looking up to me. And I enjoy it

    So, they treat me as an equal. Many actually become human and act quite humble. Funny how their roles change when they dont have a clear advantage. They tend to be pretty cool. I cleared a few spyware off one's computer, took about $30 minutes. She asked how much she owed, I said $475. She said ok and started writing a check. I stopped her and told I was joking, it was only $75. She wrote the check for $500. I asked why, she said because she wants to be a premium client that I rush to and get problems fixed for. I told her that costs $600, but she didnt go for it

    So do I think much of other IT's? No, I dont. I know most of them are a joke. They can talk the talk, but they cant walk the walk. Do people in other professions know the same? No, which is why they think higher of them. You'd be surprised the looks in some of their faces when they ask how many years I had to spend in school to learn this, and I say "none". I once had an airline pilot tell me he wished he knew what I did so he could change jobs (if he only knew) Would I take my job over being an airline pilot? Oh heck no...ok, maybe

  9. #9
    I used to work as a technician in a small company with 30 client computers and 2 servers. In general I was respected a lot by my co-workers as I resolved their problems quickly and promptly. I often got job offers from other companies when working there for higher pay, but remained faithfull

    It was enjoyable work for the most part, but silly tech support questions got on my nerves.

    e.g... Co-worker: "Why is my printer not working" Me: "Turn it on please".

    Unfortunately, they relied too heavily on me most occasions to contemplate actually using their brains.
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  10. #10
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    Originally posted by Webdude

    When I am called into such a home, I walk in confident. They may be better than me in public on the street because they have more money than me.... but right there, in "their" homes, I am better than them because I have the knowledge. I easily talk above them and bring them down a few notches, suddenly, they are looking up to me. And I enjoy it

    So, they treat me as an equal. Many actually become human and act quite humble. Funny how their roles change when they dont have a clear advantage. They tend to be pretty cool. I cleared a few spyware off one's computer, took about $30 minutes. She asked how much she owed, I said $475. She said ok and started writing a check. I stopped her and told I was joking, it was only $75. She wrote the check for $500. I asked why, she said because she wants to be a premium client that I rush to and get problems fixed for. I told her that costs $600, but she didnt go for it
    This is very true... I frequently have clients overpay me and say "hey I just want to make sure I'm taking care of you, don't want to lose you to some other client" They always do things like that. They know how hard it is to find good tech support even in this metro area I live in.

    I am in college right now, once I graduate I plan on taking it full-time. I'm really liking the business courses in college, accounting/management etc. Those are things I really didn't have much grasp on and will definitely help me run my business. All the CSIS classes I'm taking are interesting but a lot is just review but there are some interesting concepts and theories and more in-depth things which I really like. The in-depth history is also very interesting to learn IMO.

    Anyways.. It is all about the professionalism and being respectful, but I never talk down to my clients, I don't need to make myself feel superior to them in any way, that is ridiculous. Everyone has some skill in something. I always treat my clients like gold, never would I want to "bring them down a few notches", If I did that i'm sure they'd be rid of my pompous *** in a few months when they found a replacement. Be humble and you will find yourself getting more work than you can handle.

  11. #11
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    Maybe all the outsourcing in the industry?

    I used to work years ago - programming work in the 'old' mainframes - and computer programmers commanded a high salary and were much respected.

    Those days are gone. Much of our company was outsourced.

    I'm surprised these days, people don't want to pay for internet web work, when it takes a ton of time and can be a headache and is a skill! And it takes time to learn the techniques, which oftentimes change just when you learn them. They won't think anything of paying someone a few dollars to fix their TV but want free website work. I don't know exactly why.

    Tricia

  12. #12
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    When you have 12 year olds getting their A+, CCNA, and other certifications, you can throw the term "Professional" out the window...

    "Professional" Industries have standards, boards and regulatory commissions that certify the people as professionals. When every company out there has their own certifications (MSCE, CCNA, NOVELL etc) there is some standardization, but not really the same level as an MCAT or BAR exam.

  13. #13
    Here's my view on it..and it can be compared to doctors fairly well, there really aren't many if any overall computer experts, with all the new software/hardware emerging daily, its IMPOSSIBLE to be an expert in everything.. Just like doctors. Do you have doctors that do everything? Nope, there are then specialists.. I consider an EXPERT a person that knows EVERYTHING in their field period..

    I am sure that many people here even consider themselves a computer expert, and I hate to tell you your not..

    There's software out there that you have never used, there is hardware out there that you've never seen..The day someone can teach a class how to use software they have never used before, as well as fully re-write windows/linux/mac and troubleshoot a motherboard problem down to a cooked capicitor you're simply not an expert.
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  14. #14
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    My two cents:

    People don't really understand the implication of computer "experts", such as software developers. They know what a doctor does (in a broad sense, not necessarily what each specialisation involves) but computers are very much an enigma - few understand the processes that are involved in creating software/hardware, administering applications etc. As we know it is a complex field well worthy of respect - but I think the greatest respect for anyone in the industry come from peers, not anyone outside of the sphere.

  15. #15
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    It's the nature of the industry.

    When was the last time you called up the phone company and thanked them for a continuous dial tone.

    People don't really care or need to care about how the plumbing works to get their e-mail from one end to the other. I've been a Communications Officer for 15 years and have done every aspect of Comm and IT from guys talking radio to radio in the desert to complex, 500 mile systems that support an entire theater of operations comm and IT needs.

    IT is a commodity. It is a means to accomplish an end: mission success. Folks who are trying to accomplish their mission only think about IT when it hinders them from getting a job done and not when it helps.

    IT folks have to get used to not being in the limelight and getting the satisfaction from knowing that, at best, people never complain because the systems are always well planned for and redundant and outages never occur. At the end of the day, however, I've gotten used to the standard "Comm Sucks" from the operators even though they haven't got a clue as to how hard it is to do well and that it really was pretty solid.

    So, even if you have an advanced degree in IT, don't expect to have kids coming up to you and asking for your autograph. IT isn't the "black art" it used to be in the Wild West days of the 90's when some guy could parlay his limited knowledge of routers into an $80K a year income. Good IT pros are increasingly easy to come by and it is the value added that will make the difference in the long run.

    At best, the profession will always be like the phone company. Did you call them yet to thank them for that dial tone?
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  16. #16
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    IMO, status comes down to your income - the car you drive, the house you live in - your general lifestyle. If you're driving a Merc, living in a million dollar house, have a nice 6 figure income, and have next to no debt, then you have status, and can easily rub shoulders with the doctors or whoever. Your occupation won't neccesarily give you "status", whereas your income and lifestyle will.
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  17. #17
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    Originally posted by Trifolic

    There's software out there that you have never used, there is hardware out there that you've never seen..The day someone can teach a class how to use software they have never used before, as well as fully re-write windows/linux/mac and troubleshoot a motherboard problem down to a cooked capicitor you're simply not an expert.
    Well then... by your "standards"... there are simply NO experts. You don't need to know every application and every piece of hardware... that reminds me of some lame trade school for PC "experts" or something.... Experts are those who know the theories and based on the theories they can apply them to anything... they take a bottom-up approach. Whereas your ideology about "experts" assumes a top-down approach, which would be very bad IMO for an "expert".


    Originally posted by Aussie Bob

    IMO, status comes down to your income - the car you drive, the house you live in - your general lifestyle. If you're driving a Merc, living in a million dollar house, have a nice 6 figure income, and have next to no debt, then you have status, and can easily rub shoulders with the doctors or whoever. Your occupation won't neccesarily give you "status", whereas your income and lifestyle will.
    thanks... that was one of the funniest things I have read in a while.

  18. #18
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    The post was about professionals and not experts but, nevertheless, for the record:

    Main Entry: expert
    Part of Speech: noun
    Definition: specialist
    Synonyms: ace, adept, artist, artiste, authority, buff, connoisseur, doyen, gnome, graduate, guru, hot shot, master, maven, old hand, old pro, phenom, pro, professional, proficient, shark, virtuoso, whiz, wizard

    Source: Roget's New Millennium™ Thesaurus, First Edition (v 1.1.1)
    Copyright © 2005 by Lexico Publishing Group, LLC. All rights reserved.

    I really like the term maven.
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  19. #19
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    lol, how on earth was this dug up? Although a very good read... thanks guys

  20. #20
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    I tell you what, when someone calls up a plumber they don't balk at paying him $80 - $150 per hour to fix their problems.

    They pay the same to the appliance repair guy.

    They pay similar to the furnance guy.

    But when there computer system is a wreck and they want me to come and "fix" it, they act like I should come to their house for free!
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  21. #21
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    Originally posted by esh
    . . . thanks... that was one of the funniest things I have read in a while.
    No need to insult that which you do not agree with. Here's a tip - rather than posting a sarcastic and rude reply, why not explain why you don't agree with it? But then again, you college kids know it all these days.
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  22. #22
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    Originally posted by Aussie Bob
    No need to insult that which you do not agree with. Here's a tip - rather than posting a sarcastic and rude reply, why not explain why you don't agree with it? But then again, you college kids know it all these days.
    Whelp, I found it funny too - but only because it's true.
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  23. #23
    Originally posted by CTG
    Most of the job fields you listed require some formal education. Computer professionals often have years of experience but little formal training.

    But the real problem is that there are too many computer people that label themselves as "experts" but know very little about the profession. Their saturation into the employment market has devalued IT professionals in general. I've had the displeasure of working with them side-by-side at various locations. I've observed people that entered the IT field seeking higher pay and prestige only to find they didn't like the field, and they stay in the field becuase they're afraid to change to something else.

    It isn't helping that larger vendors are outsourcing their support to people they called "technical support" but are little more than mindless script-reading zombies. To a layman they're as much a computer professional as the IT department at the office.

    This is an interesting topic, I'm sure there are other reasons I'm not thinking of. I hope others share.
    Amen.

    And I guarantee, half of the people here are exactly the same. They saturate our industry, rendering the need for techs non existant. They pretend they know what they don't, and do more harm than good.
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  24. #24
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    I have to agree that the "status as a professional" is in a decline. But that is for many reasons.
    1. I have lost track of the number of poorly attired "computer professionals" I've run across. Showing up wearing your "Got Root" tee shirt, dirty jeans and sneakers is not going to leave a professional image in any ones mind.
    2. Talking down to your client(s). A true professional will always be able to explain something in plain english. Someone that resorts to techno-babble is usually covering up the fact that they don't understand it themselves.
    3. Not knowing your limits. A professional will admit when they are over their head and seek help. The typical hit and run "computer guy" that I clean up after will totally trash a network in their blundering attempts.
    4. Sometimes the answer is no. A professional will rather lose a potential client than do something that is stupid or wrong. Your typical "I know a cheap computer guy" will do anything for a buck.

    Yes, there are a lot of low priced hacks out there and sadly way too many people get burnt by them. Eventually most people learn that there is a certain price that has to be paid for quality.
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  25. #25
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    Hmm....

    How did this old thread get dug up?

    Still, everyone made good points to the debate, coming from different prespectives and all.

    While what Aussie Bob said about income is true to a certain limit, if you inherit your dad's cash, spend like a playboy, have no manners, is unable to hold a intelligent, serious conversation, I wouldn't call that status. Also, when you go to a Lawyer, you expect to pay, cause they have high status. When you introduce yourself as a doctor, people cast a different glance at you.

    Now, try introducing yourself as a Software Engineer.

    What trau said is very true too. It just reminds me of lecturers in my University. They walk into the lecture teather, dressed in such a way that just screams: I AM SUPER-GEEK at you. Then again, they are in a University, lecturing super-geeks wanna-bes, so...

    While it makes plenty of sense, it still does not really answer why the real professionals, software engineers, big time network admins etc. who do dress well, who can answer questions by clients, who know their limits etc. do not enjoy the status of say, civil or mechanical engineers.
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