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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
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    what i am doing about a paypal dispute

    i had this guy contact me, saying he found me here at WHT. he wanted some phpbb icons designed for his forum.

    first he makes it sounded like he wanted an entire set, so i gave him a low per icon quote, assuming he actually wanted to entire set. then he said he only wants two. ok fine... so i sent over the paypal invoice and he pays it...

    he stated to me that he wanted the icons design INTEGRATED with the subsilver design but he wanted his logo put in it. ok fine we do that (i hire out for this) then he says he is REALLY pleased blah blah blah (ya i have all the emails)

    then he sends me a link to the winamp forums and says he changed his mind that he wants them like theirs. ok fine, so i have the guy do that. then he says he wants them 16x16 and so on... i warn the client that this was NOT going to look good. but he didnt care.

    so, the guy says, sorry i dont like those, ill just go ahead and take the first set you made.

    ok fine. then the problems start, he starts calling, he starts emailing asking for a refund, although my site clearly states that we have a no refund policy. i responded once informing him of how he signed off on it and that the graphics person was paid and that we dont work for free!

    so of course, i just get a paypal email, luckily, i talked to paypal and they are on my side because of the type of claim he filed, saying it was a product and he never received it, that is fraudulent!

    in any event, looks like this will go my way, but in the event that it doesnt, ill simply take the guy to collections!

    i dont know why people think they can change their mind several times and get endless amounts of revisions!

    just curious what you guys normally do when someone tries to do this.

    Last edited by Project X; 02-18-2005 at 06:19 PM.
    if you haven't considered chapter 7 bankruptcy, maybe you should.
    eliminate your debt, keep the property you want, most people qualify.
    contrary to popular belief - no attorney is necessary!
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  2. #2
    Do as you are doing. Get everything in writing. It seems that people do not want to pay for anything these days. I have noticed that so many people think that since a web designer or developer does something - they enjoy it. Well we might enjoy it, but it does take time as well

    You should be commended by having them sign a contract - you probably learned the hard way, though?
    John
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  3. #3
    I've had few clients (also phpBB styles related) who changed their mind. If client changes his mind its fine with me, if he changes his mind for second time I prefer to dump that client. All trouble with clients who don't know what they want not worth effort.

    If amount of money is small (and I guess it is small for 2 icons) then I suggest to refund it. You'll loose some money because you payed designer, but all headache caused by bad clients not worth few $$.
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  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Castle Pines, CO
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    It is amazing to me that people sign a contract, agree to something, and then decide something different. People think they can get away with anything.

    Laura, you might want to consider updating your TOS at least: Sell Your Chargebacks Now!
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  5. #5
    Join Date
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    there was no signature, per se
    if you haven't considered chapter 7 bankruptcy, maybe you should.
    eliminate your debt, keep the property you want, most people qualify.
    contrary to popular belief - no attorney is necessary!
      0 Not allowed!

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Flint, Michigan
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    The problem with using paypal for digital goods is that they do not cover them and the buyer usually has all of the power. You are doing the right thing and I truly wish you the best of luck in your dispute, obviously you deserve to win it.
    Mike from Zoodia.com
    Professional web design and development services.
    In need of a fresh hosting design? See what premade designs we have in stock!
    Web design tips, tricks, and more at MichaelPruitt.com
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  7. #7
    Join Date
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    thanks

    while i cant say for sure what the client is going to do with the stuff we provided to him, i CAN say that he indicated TWICE that he was happy and that he was going to use the first "integrated" set that he paid for.

    at that point, the designer was paid.
    if you haven't considered chapter 7 bankruptcy, maybe you should.
    eliminate your debt, keep the property you want, most people qualify.
    contrary to popular belief - no attorney is necessary!
      0 Not allowed!

  8. #8
    Join Date
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    Is he using them on his website?
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  9. #9
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    i have no idea if he is now, or if he is going to.

    how does anyone know?

    maybe he has another site?

    who knows...

    i just think it is kind of ironic how people try to lie to paypal in order to get money back. i guess they dont relaize it counts against THEM and not the seller.
    if you haven't considered chapter 7 bankruptcy, maybe you should.
    eliminate your debt, keep the property you want, most people qualify.
    contrary to popular belief - no attorney is necessary!
      0 Not allowed!

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Castle Pines, CO
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    I could not agree with you more. I was working with a few people from this board actually myself - they were helping with support and sales. All signed a contract, worked one month and got paid. And then never heard from them again. I have now gotten to the point where I now call for references. I can almost see this being done even in cases like yours.

    Currently, we only take on work that has been referred to us. So we do not have these types of problems (yet).
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  11. #11
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
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    well this rarely happens to us and im not going to let it effect my business.

    it wasnt for a great deal of money, but of course, it is the principal.
    if you haven't considered chapter 7 bankruptcy, maybe you should.
    eliminate your debt, keep the property you want, most people qualify.
    contrary to popular belief - no attorney is necessary!
      0 Not allowed!

  12. It is always good to take some money up front, then show your client watermarked images of what he will be buying. Then he pays the rest of the money for you to send him the unwatermarked images.
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  13. #13
    Join Date
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    Originally posted by HostBlimp.com
    It is always good to take some money up front, then show your client watermarked images of what he will be buying. Then he pays the rest of the money for you to send him the unwatermarked images.
    Even that wouldn't have helped here, the client would have simply done a paypal reversal.
    Mike from Zoodia.com
    Professional web design and development services.
    In need of a fresh hosting design? See what premade designs we have in stock!
    Web design tips, tricks, and more at MichaelPruitt.com
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  14. #14
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
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    1,128
    Paypal is known to usually go with the buyer, unfortunately for you. Back when I had a $969 dispute over a custom computer, luckily I was able to work it out with the buyer over the phone and email and got him to cancel it. Good luck!
    Daily Updated Web Hosting News Blog
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  15. #15
    Join Date
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    Originally posted by HostBlimp.com
    It is always good to take some money up front, then show your client watermarked images of what he will be buying. Then he pays the rest of the money for you to send him the unwatermarked images.
    i always charge up front and this is exactly why.

    he has already paid in full, then once that happened he wants to change all the terms several times.

    either way, according to paypal, this is a dispute i am not going to lose. first because it is a virtual item, and secondly, because he lied saying that it wasnt a virtual item.

    i do not like having any unhappy clients of course, but when he signs off on the job, then i pay the designer and then the guy changes his mind and expects more work for no extra money, thats when i nip it in the bud.
    if you haven't considered chapter 7 bankruptcy, maybe you should.
    eliminate your debt, keep the property you want, most people qualify.
    contrary to popular belief - no attorney is necessary!
      0 Not allowed!

  16. Thats when you should be paid per hour.
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  17. #17
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Carbondale Illinois
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    Except for designing and those types of services, there's no way to get paid by the hour.
    Please apply for our current job openings: Link
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  18. I had someone give me a quote to design a website for me, and he said $2000 + $30 an hour, I ended up not buying this as it is out of my price range but having an amount to pay before any designing is done and then alos a $30 an hour for extra work that might come up later.
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  19. #19
    Join Date
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    30.00 an hour???

    are you guys in the USA?
    if you haven't considered chapter 7 bankruptcy, maybe you should.
    eliminate your debt, keep the property you want, most people qualify.
    contrary to popular belief - no attorney is necessary!
      0 Not allowed!

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Carbondale Illinois
    Posts
    474
    I am...

    For instructional services, I charge $45/hr...
    Please apply for our current job openings: Link
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  21. #21
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Flint, Michigan
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    The phone company here charges $75/hour for wiring. Needless to say I turned them away and ordered a fresh spool of Cat6 myself. Back on topic I'm really sorry to hear about you having so many issues with this case. It was my assumption that if it was digital goods, then you were pretty much out of luck (that's what paypal told me during a dispute a year or so ago). Are they now saying that the buyer is SOL when it comes to digital goods?
    Mike from Zoodia.com
    Professional web design and development services.
    In need of a fresh hosting design? See what premade designs we have in stock!
    Web design tips, tricks, and more at MichaelPruitt.com
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  22. #22

    you know what to do

    you know what todo.... KEEP the money!! its your right... he has the product.... and you have policy!!!
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  23. #23
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
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    Re: you know what to do

    Originally posted by Britten
    you know what todo.... KEEP the money!! its your right... he has the product.... and you have policy!!!
    I can see you haven't had too much experience with paypal yet =p

    They choose who keeps the money.
    Mike from Zoodia.com
    Professional web design and development services.
    In need of a fresh hosting design? See what premade designs we have in stock!
    Web design tips, tricks, and more at MichaelPruitt.com
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  24. So far everyone that has either paid me or I paid them have been nice and gave me my product or didnt complain about theres., but this could be because I have done less then 250 transactions.
      0 Not allowed!

  25. #25
    You might want to see the whole thing from the buyer perspective.
    Here I am .... the story started when I saw a nice customized forum at LaurenStephens.net which at that time was in the signature of the user LaurenStephens.com. Made a phone call and found out that she can customize all the images from my forum and I decided to start with 2 icons. She tells me that it will cost this amount for a "little customization" and double for "fully customized". I choose to pay the double because I want the icons fully customized ... she asks to send an email for which icons I want customized and I send an email with the links for the 2 forum icons ... I pay the paypal email invoice and I wrote that I want "something that would integrate in the site and be quite unique. If you seen the forums from the winamp site, well that is something similat to what I am looking for ... simple images, not too big, not too many colors". There are no terms and conditions for this transaction (my mistake).
    Unfortunately she understands that I want the icons to integrate with the subsilver phpbb style and I get a 2 links for 2 icons that look very good but they are very alike to the phpbb style since the designer used as a background the original subsilver icons and added my site logo over it. These images are watermaked for security.
    I reply stating that I want the images modified ... the circle phpbb background removed and let only the logo from my site and the images having a certain size and dimmensions and again that I want the icons to look similar to the ones from the winamp forum and no similirarity with phpbb style.
    I get an email that she cannot do the images with the size I want so I say it's ok then lets see how they look on the size she can do. I got 2 new links with 2 icons, no watermark on these and ... disaster ... these images look so bad it seems that thay are made by a different designer ... my 7 year old daughter could have done a much better job with the paint program.
    I reply saying that I realy do not like the second images and that I might use the first set of images, the one phpbb like even it is not quite what I wanted.
    Then I do not get any emails so I call her and she promisses that she will give me the the watermark-free images from the first set the next day when the designer will come back. Then again ... nothing, no emails for about a week. Try to call again but no answer, leave a message on the answering machine and still nothing.
    So what am I gonna do now I got 2 sets of images one set that I realy do not like and one set that I do like but it is not what wanted and cannot used because they are still watermarked. Going pretty mad about the situation and even more ... I find out that the phpbb subsilver images used for the first set of icons cannot be used for commercial purposes cause they are not released under GPL like the phpbb forum.
    I send an email that I want to get my money back and ... surprize ... I get her last email saying that I payed for one set and got two sets exactly how I wanted. I send emails saying that the first set is not what I wanted (not completely customized for which I payed double from the begining) and that the images from the first set are still watermarked and not usebale. The second set well ... it just cannot be used.on any decent site.
    I did not get answers yet. I belive any of you would go ahead and dispute the paypal transaction like I did. I will probably lose it but at least I had one last resort to try.

    Regrards!
      0 Not allowed!

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