Web Hosting Talk : Web Hosting Main Forums : Web Hosting : Do many hostings blackmail to upgrade?

[SupaDucta]

For now, I am not going to post the name of this large and well-known US hosting company.

I have been with this host for almost three months as the user of the Reseller package, starting up and planning to switch to VPS. In these three months, the server we are hosted on has been performing extremely poorly, being highly loaded with usual loads from 7-28, sometimes even 33.

cPanel lists the amount of RAM as 25% occupied, but SSH 'top' command lists something completely different: from 87 kb to 500 kb max free out of 4 Gb RAM. The server has four processors, usually reported as 70-80% idle, yet mySQL performs extremely poorly. This server hosts around 500+ domains at the moment, according to Whois.sc and has 1 or two IDE disks (how can only those disks perform well, I wonder). The disk that contains webs is 60% full meaning they have a lot more space to fill it up and the are filling it.

I have been assigned 4 Gb space and 50 Gb monthly bandwidth, out of which I am using 94 Mb space and some 1000 Gb bandwidth monthly for some 5-6 active websites and others waiting to be finished and put up. But where? The darn thing is out of resources!

Now after some time of polite complaining, I have noticed that the term 'VPS' is constantly somewhere in the air, mildly suggesting I should upgrade.

And today, the support guy coldly and ruthlessly said I should upgrade to VPS. Now, it wouldn't be offensive if I had a decent server performance but wanted a better one, but this server is so loaded most of the time that today I have lost a first potential client who was testing some script on that server. His crons were 20-25 minute late and his remark was they didn't have use for such a slow and overloaded server.

Which brings us up to the conclusion. These people are tampering with my business, lured me into their hosting service by publicly advertising high-speed connections, but obviously they are overselling on purpose to force clients to upgrade by actually harassing them with server loads and messing their business up, not allowing them to upgrade as the business develops but FORCING THEM by poor server performance.

As I am posting this, the SSH 'top' command lists:

12:24:52 up 1 day, 17:14, 1 user, load average: 24.88, 19.15, 16.21
3 processes: 2 sleeping, 1 running, 0 zombie, 0 stopped
CPU0 states: 19.3% user 16.2% system 0.0% nice 0.0% iowait 64.0% idle
CPU1 states: 25.1% user 6.1% system 0.0% nice 0.0% iowait 68.3% idle
CPU2 states: 28.4% user 9.3% system 0.0% nice 0.0% iowait 61.3% idle
CPU3 states: 24.1% user 5.2% system 0.0% nice 0.0% iowait 70.2% idle
Mem: 4010760k av, 3609632k used, 401128k free, 0k shrd, 240484k buff
1100784k active, 2154228k inactive
Swap: 2096472k av, 25964k used, 2070508k free 2381072k cached

As you can see, there is a memory shortage and high-server loads. This is A BLACKMAIL. And if you complain, they say 'upgrade'. Well, I would, but this isn't a way to do business. I feel like someone is blackmailing me and literally forcing me to upgrade to VPS.

I have lost a potential customer and 120$ today and had a few occasions where I was ironically laughed at by my friends or colleagues who said 'Some hosting you've got there'.

And yes, there were also pretty many issues. Support is great and they really react fast, but of the space and bandwisth I am paying, I am unable to use more than what I am using now, because THE DARN THING IS OVERLOADED.

Now I am worried if I upgrade to VPS with this company I could be lured in again and presented with the same 'Upgrade by force' policy when the load rises.

What I don't get here, is that server performs so slowly but processors are almost idle. This is unfair, AND THIS IS FALSE ADVERTISING, which is, I believe punishable by law as well as balckmailing. I can't decide what to do.

Do I:

Take the forced VPS upgrade (I was planning that anyway) or
sign up for VPS on another hosting company and dedicate my life to negatively promoting these people worldwide?

Since I am in Europe, which host to choose? These guys have 16 nodes from them to me, which is not a problem, but these nodes have a response time of 267 up to 470 at times??!!!!

I am looking at maybe vpsColo or ServInt, according to you guys raving about them here.

I am out of my mind, this is doing a direct damage to my newly starting business where hosting wouldn't be our primary business us being a design and web production studio which wants to offer a stable and decently performing hosting services (we are slowly getting hosting inquirires from some serious companies, not kids Nukeing their fisrt portal with 15 visits per day), but if I can't get a Drupal with almost empty 1.4 MB database to perform decently, and if I was lured once, I could be twice (I am sure there will be a 'fineprint' appearing somewhere along the VPS upgrade with those people), what do I do?

Or do all big webhosts enforce such a policy?

[chrispost]

I believe they do.

[SupaDucta]

Well, sadly, so do I.

I shall probably stay with those people for that reason, but this is an extremely unfair policy of 'first we wound you, then we nurture you'.

[okihost]

It looks like this company has some serious issues with server load, Have you asked them what is up with the server load and what they are doing to correct it?

Also that server is most likely two dual xeon servers running HT which makes it show as 4, While dual xeons can handle a load betters that is still and outragous load to put on ANY server .

If that load average is something of the 'norm' with them I would suggest moving as soon as possible as they obviously have some server management issues.

[SupaDucta]

It looks like this company has some serious issues with server load, Have you asked them what is up with the server load and what they are doing to correct it?

Yep, well many of us did. Turned out it was enormous quantities of spam and they have deployed some new software to handle this. For a week, server loads were up to 3 which was pretty good and mySQL was operating well decently. Two-three days ago we went to previous state with high server loads and poor performance.

Yep, took a look - there are Dual Xeons HT and it is also truly and honestly advertised. No problem with that.

But even when server loads are 5-6, mySQL performs really poorly. And I don't get this - processors are 70-80% idle but server drags? And drags mostly only in cPanel and sites that use mySQL. Flat HTML sites perform much better, although sometimes the initial browser query wait a bit for the server to respond.

The worst thing that left the bad taste in my mouth is that today I got the feeling that they are sick of me reporting those issues, instead of me being sick with issues.

As we speak, server load is around 12.

[SupaDucta]

And looking at the other companie's server status at the moment I am using also, turns out they also have a low memory but server load is 0.30-2.20, and sites perform superb. There are around 19-20 PID user processes I am watching now and all is performing very nicely.

Looking at one other big host's reverse IP, the server I have tried hosts 271 domains, this one hosts almost 600 domains.

[PMH-Steve]

I would ask that your current host at least move you to another server for the time being. If you aren't using your space and you don't have anything too resource intensive then there is really no excuse for the poor performance.

IMO a VPS/VDS is better suited for people who have one or two big sites and just want their own mail server or to have better general control over their hosting environment. Just as long you don't host anything too intensive or complex in the way of mySQL or PHP.

They are much like using a dedicated server with the stats of the VDS/VPS: 200MHz CPU / 128MB of RAM / running Linux with a control panel.

In any event good luck to you.

[slowdive]

If they overload their servers set up for resellers surely the likelyhood is that they will do the same with the servers set up for VPS accounts?
Your business sounds like it is at a crititcal stage in it's evolution, that's too much to risk staying with the same company. The server they "upgrade" you to may be a better platform but it's still the same cowboys steering your comany down the drain!
I am based in the UK and I have a VPS with ServInt. I know you're not looking for recommendations here but they would never leave you dangling like that. You need to be with a company that cares nearly as much about your hosted sites as you do because they realise that's how you're making your living. I know the prospect is not appealing but I'd bail out now and save more tears in the future.

[Orc Webhosting]

I don't understand how you even think of keeping with such a company, I mean you yourself say they lied to you and are currently blackmailing you, and server performance is so horrendous you're losing money, clients and reputation because of this. Can any webhost get much worse? As for the extremely bad MySQL performance and the long startup time for static websites, it's not necessarily what's causing it but it's possible: HDD. If the whole dual Xeon with 4 gigs RAM is depending on a single IDE HDD, there's a serious bottleneck in the setup, such a server would need a SCSI RAID to perform decently. Both this server config and the spam trouble shows IMO that the people managing this server either don't have much of an idea what they're doing or that the whole business plan of this company is truly as cynical as you think it might be...

p.s. I'd be interested in the name of this company, if you don't want to say it in public please PM it to me, I promise not to tell anyone else.

[SupaDucta]

Well, let me explain something here. I would use VPS until we grow and some more clients come to us, and then we would get a dedicated server.

VPS is a good solution for me to develop furtherly. I am not even planning on earning here at first. I am planning on earning on website design and development, and use our hosting service to provide a quality hosting to our clients, and to be able to afford a dedicated, non-Celeron ( ) dedicated.

Bear in mind that my market is really bad, and our web service price ranges we can get out with are absurd in your markets, and that we have to fight the very hard business conditions.

And how am I supposed to grow here if I can't build up my hosting services slowly, and work my way up to the dedicated or two when under this conditions I can't even start advertising hosting, but have to service only existing clients?

For business-to-business comparison, let's say I want to start importing some product from China. The Chinese dealer will give me smaller commisions but will actually try to help me build up. I will receive consulting, maybe be granted some delayed payments etc. When I build up and order more goods, my commisions will get larger.

In hosting, I need a decent start, to be able to build up to solid service, and finally to an excellent one. But in this case, I have to face bad server performance, than maybe decent with starting VPS package, then get a cheap lame Celeron dedicated, and eventually if I survive the barriers my own service provider is presenting me with, maybe then I can offer quality hosting service I can be proud of, as I am proud with my web and print services now.

Now what do they teach in economy? If your dealer is serving you bad quality goods when you start doing business with him instead of just smaller comissions, don't do business with him.

But here, I obviously don't have an option of choosing but be constantly underperformed comparing to resold hosting level I am at. If I knew this from the beginning, I would have never even started thinking about reseller packages, because they are obviously by far the worst way to enter this business. Sadly, I would be better off reselling other people's packages. Or should stay out of hosting until I can cough up for Dual Xeon with SCSI and additional RAM and I don't know what else. In this business, we don't get a starter-kit, we get starter-**** although us small people with 20 of us per server on VPS are far more profitable to our mother sellers than 1 dedicated server sold.

So to simplify - I have been offered and advertised to start from reseller knowingly I can't provide a decent service (knowingly by my seller, I was sure I could start-off well), then maybe, just maybe starting the VPS with the guaranteed minimum of 150 MHz processor (equivalent to Pentium I, wow that's a beast) and 128 or 192 MB RAM for a 1 Gb RedHat installation equipped with tons of daemons, Apache, PHP, mySQL, mailman etc. which I simply can't calculate to be a decent service, I have to be treated like a trash from both my seller and my buyers, although I am paying a valid solid cash to my seller in advance and spending days and nights over cPanels and server logs. OK, this RAM and processor can play really well, but not under oversold and overburdened servers.

Why should be treated this way in any business? Like a trash that needs to be squeezed off as much cash as he can cough up until he goes out of business, or do you find a possibility of me coughing up 10-20 times more cash to you over the years if you help me out to survive? If not, and surely not, why do you force us to suffer that? It's the same as GM is offering **** cars to people that start opening representations in other sountries. Are they doing that? They wouldn't DREAM of it. Corvette is a Corvette whether you buy it in Germany of on the Moon.

All this results in too many resellers, too many VPSes with too many resellers that last shortly and die fast in agony, that shouldn't be in this business in the first place. But, good solid web studios that would and should offer quality web services to their clients suffer the most damage here. So our cash and our trader's honour is at stake here, and we are used as an example of bad hosting services to prove that big guys are only that is valid, but ironically the same big guys that CALL US to deal with them, and make most of their income from us. And if you submit tickets, you are placed amongst those 'idiotic customers' that are often mentioned in this business. I have a right for a decent product, and I have a right not to be satisfied and to be heard.

I have to review my math because something doesn't sum up here.

Now some guys can hate me for posting this, but I am trying to bring more cash to myself to be able to cash more to guys I am under. Chain reaction which could be well established.

And I won't give up. I'll bite the bullet (server loads) and PROVE I'll survive in spite of conditions I am presented with. And at the end, I will provide a high quality service to the clients I am producing webs to. Oh yes, I will. And then some. Maybe then, just maybe, my business will be truly appreciated and respected. I'll earn it.

My apologies to anybody that could find himself insulted, but try to see it from my side.

[SupaDucta]

And if I decide to move, and probably will, you will know the company name. And then some. Many forums will.

[Orc Webhosting]

If you're already having an established web design business and have some cash, you might want to go the Celeron dedicated way. Thanks to Intel propaganda, most people think the Celeron is some inferior breed of processor, whereas technically it barely differs from the P4 (as an aside, the Xeon barely differs from the P4 neither, not really validating the immense price tag - Intel basically sells the same product with minor modifications in 3 completely different price classes). LOL OK back to what I wanted to say, a Celeron server is bad only when companies use it to make a dedicated server cheap by buying the lowest end components to build the machine (easy to spot because these offers will be as low as $59/$79/month). Starting at $99/month, an unmanaged Celeron dedicated server might just be of decent quality and in a datacenter with quality bandwidth - if you want to be really sure, check out reviews on providers and you'll also see that the price starts to go towards $120-$150 for an unmanaged or semi-managed server. For fully managed ones, add another 50 bucks or so. I know from personal experience that running only a few moderately trafficked sites on a dedicated server, hardware only needs to be stable, not fast. A couple of years back, I was running a Celeron 700 dedicated server with 512 megs RAM and a single IDE HDD and the dozen customers hosted on it were always swarming about how blazing fast the server always is and they recommended me to their friends. Meaning if you advertently "underload" your own dedicated server, you'll be able to make not only an OK but even a very good impression on everyone that checks you out. Of course you have to choose the provider with care, just look around on WHT and you'll see which companies seem to cut it and which don't.

[PhilServ]

I think i know this company, saw you on their forums..

This is a shared hosting server. If you would like better performance I highly recommend upgrading to a VPS or Dedicated Server account. Pricing and features for these can be found on our website xxxxxxxxxxxxx

I was also experiencing this problem last aug (running smoothly now, no downtime from alertra) but I never want to experience it again, lost several clients because of that.. Worst is when i had some problem on my DNS, support was fast but answers was very empty, I told them to transfer me to Level3 support but they never did, hopefully I had a backup account on another company and transferred most clients there. I also do not like their new system implementation to fight SPAM, lost so many important emails there.

I’m a bit sad to leave this company, I have been with them for over a year now, VP and Staff was friendly and fast support (not great). Servers was excellent for almost a year with a few minor problems, major problems only started when they offered their VPS plans and migration took place from reseller to VPS, I think they forgot their reseller clients and just focused on their new VPS plans. Anyway i am serious with my business and I value my clients, business is business, im moving out now..

good luck on finding a new host, you might want to check out dinix and vpscolo, purchased one already at vpscolo, waiting for the confirmation now

[SupaDucta]

16:33:19 up 1 day, 21:22, 1 user, load average: 10.84, 11.38, 13.58

Etc. Sometimes rises, these are the defaults and it's not my peaktime, it's 11.36 PM here. At MY peaktime (not theirs), all backups and who knows what are running, and we are mostly at 15-22 range. I had two SMS messages from one of our site's editors that site is dragging (database is optimized, very small and all in all whole site is heavily optimized and XHTML Strict valid so no problems on our side).

RambOrc, no I haven't developed a hosting business yet because I am not eager to offer this hosting too energetically. We had some inquiries from some serious people but we were not willing to risk our clients. I have a few small webs, one magazine (our own) and several websites under development waiting to be finished. So basically, something is starting up here. And I believe I might get a basic dedicated setup somewhere early next year (if I get rid of such hosts), but VPS is my next step.

Concerning Celeron - I have first heard that it doesn't handle mySQL too well due to small cache. But later, I have also heard that dedicated Celeron can be a pretty nice startup combination. I am lucky to know a really good Lin/Win/BSD guy who is very good at inspecting, maintaining and solving installation, optimization and server security so he will be able to help me out at first dedicated steps. But, it's still far.

PhilServ, then you know exactly that this case 'holds water' and you know exactly what I've been going through. From being hillarious at every short-lasting and temporary improvement, to being desperate, and you know all the versions presented by them. First it was load balancing, then spam, then they didn'nt know what was going on (response I got three days ago), and then the guy finally killed me with 'Get a VPS or Dedicated' note. The sentence that came to mind was from 'Pulp Fiction': 'Take a coupla hard pipe-hitting niggaz to tear da place down' .

And yes, my choice now vages between vpscolo, dinix and ServInt. basically from what I've read here and from you guys, any of these three would be good. I shall have to decide between them on price. Boy, I can't wait to get rolling to afford my own box....

Concerning their nice fast support. I'd rather have a grumpy guy on the 'other' side who would scream at me WOT? DARN YOU I'LL FIXYA BOX and fix things, then nice people who are instructed to be nice and confuse

And something else. You guys are wonderful. Supportive, helping, warm. I cannot thank you enough for your time and help, and I hope you'll never need help from me. But if you will, I'll be there for you in anyway I can.

A big THANKS to all of you.

[Dacsoft]

Originally posted by SupaDucta
...I have been assigned 4 Gb space and 50 Gb monthly bandwidth, out of which I am using 94 Mb space and some 1000 Gb ...

Am I misreading this? You are authorized 50 GB of bandwidth but are using 1000 GB? If this is not a mistake, then it looks like you are loading the server. I tend to believe that it must be a mistake. I can't believe you could afford to go that far over your limit - or that a host would allow it.