Web Hosting Talk : Web Hosting Main Forums : Domain Names : 123-Reg - What customers should know

[blondmark]

I normally use Registerfly.com and Redstation.com, both of which I have found to be quite excellent. But for my part, I have found 123-Reg to be the biggest bunch of cowboys in the business.

What you may not realise about 123-Reg (which I certainly didn't) is their illegal policy of foisting unsolicited and unwanted domain renewal services on their customers. Astonishingly, absolutely no mention is made of this, either in the 123-Reg control panel or in 123-Reg's Terms and Conditions. Therefore if you no longer need a domain and simply leave it to expire, as I always do, then 123-Reg swoop like vultures drumming up extra business for themselves by renewing them all for you, and then dipping into your bank account to pay themselves for the privilege - never mind whether you wanted to renew or even knew anything about it!

Maintaining a veil of secrecy, 123-Reg e-mail you an invoice that makes absolutely no mention of the fact that they have already helped themselves to your bank account, unlawfully reusing your card details from any previous transactions you may have made.

This happened to me when123-Reg recently renewed one of my domains, without my knowledge or consent, that I had deliberately left to expire, and then unlawfully gained access to my bank account by misusing my confidential financial data they had culled from a previous unrelated domain purchase, and then stole money from my bank account.

Of course you would imagine that a simple e-mail pointing out how unethical, unlawful and outrageous such behaviour is would evoke an immediate apology and a refund from 123-Reg - but nothing of the sort. 123-Reg placed the blame firmly at my feet for not entering into some sort of special procedure I knew nothing about that they say cancels domains. They also added that any attempt on my part to claim back my own money through my own bankers, which is the normal procedure in cases of unauthorised debits from bank accounts, would result in my 123-Reg account being "locked".

Being in the web business, locking my portfolio of 123-Reg domains would effectively destroy all these web businesses overnight and result in enormous financial damage. This, in law, is known as 'Economic Duress' and, like theft, it is also illegal.

123-Reg's policy of foisting unsolicited, unwanted and unknown services onto innocent consumers is entirely contrary to the fundamental principle of English Contract Law that makes acceptance a mandatory requirement in every contract. In other words the law says "You can't spend my money unless I say so".

Since it cannot be argued that there was any element of acceptance of, or consent to, this unsolicited, unwanted and unknown automatic domain renewal service (remember it doesn't appear in the 123-Reg control panel or the in the 123-Reg Terms & Conditions) the appropriation of funds from my bank account without my knowledge or consent, and 123-Reg's refusal to return my money amounts, in law, to an offence under the Theft Acts (1968 & 1978).

Further investigation reveals that 123-Reg have been pulling this scam on me (and thousands like me?) for months, and there have been multiple unauthorised withdrawals from my bank account I knew nothing about.

Since 123-Reg refuse to return any of the stolen funds, I have sued them for theft and economic duress. The case is due to be heard in late 2004.

123-Reg have since offered to return the money they stole if I take all my domains elsewhere, having paid for them to be there.

My response was as follows:


"Dear Ms. Henshaw

Thank you for your e-mail, and I have to say that I am absolutely dismayed by its extraordinary content.

Kindly note that there can be no question whatever of my consenting to such a manifestly disadvantageous arrangement as removing my portfolio of domains that I have already paid 123-reg to host in exchange for a refund of monies stolen from my bank account, being my existing legal right. I have already removed my debit card details from your database, and I put you on notice of my intention to issue fresh proceedings in respect of any further thefts from my bank account.

Neither will I consent to absorb any of the costs or damages you have incurred by refusing to settle this matter prior to the issue of proceedings. For your information I shall fax you now with copy proceedings which itemise the financial element of my claim against 123-reg, which is continuing to mount, and to which you may now add the County Court Issue Fee of £50.00.

Your legal argument that I should have taken decisive action to inform you that I did not require my domains to be autorenewed at my expense is fundamentally flawed, since:

1. I had no notion of any intention you may have had to autorenew any domains, and no proper notice of your offer to autorenew domains and debit my account was served on me, either in the 123-reg control panel or in the 123-reg Terms & Conditions. If, as you allege, such information is only hidden within the FAQ section of the 123-reg web site then, in law, this is not deemed a valid location to secrete important contractual terms that give rise to a liability to a party to an agreement within a Standard Form Contract. The correct location to display Terms & Conditions is within a section entitled "Terms & Conditions".

2. There is no obligation in law on the part of an offeree to decline offers made by offerors. For example, you do not have to pay for the Viagra or penis extensions offered to you daily in your e-mail, even if the vendors unlawfully gain access to your bank account and debit payment for them, as you have done. Neither do you have to take any steps to inform the offerors that you do not wish to accept their offers. Moreover you do not need to seek out, learn or follow any special procedures set up by offerors in order to decline their offers. All you need do is to ignore them. The onus is firmly on the offeror to establish that valid acceptance has taken place and has been communicated to the offeror before a binding contract is reached, notwithstanding the additional requirements of consideration, the intention to create legal relations and the capacity to perform the contract.

Clearly 123-Reg has failed entirely on both counts and, as such, has no valid defence to the action I have brought.

With kind regards

M. Melville"

[Bladerunner]

After 10 seconds of searching the 123-reg website I came across this in their FAQ:

Q. How do I let my domain expire?
Login to your 123-reg account. In the manage domains section click allow domains to expire. Tick the domains you want to expire and click the next step button. Confirm the domains you want to cancel.

Q. My domain was auto-renewed by 123-reg and I wanted it to expire, why?
At 123-reg we understand how difficult it is to maintain a large number of domain names. One of our features is the auto-renewal feature which enables an account holder to have their domains renew automatically without having to remember when each domain they have is due to expire. In order for domains to auto-renew, up-to-date credit/debit card details must be maintained in the account profile.

We do however appreciate that not all our customers wish to avail themselves of the auto-renew facility so when we send out our email reminders for domain expiry we give clear instructions on how to let your domains expire should you no longer want them. These instructions appear on all reminders which means you will receive at least 10 separate emails notifying you about auto-renewals.

Unfortunately, if you fail to set an unwanted domain to expire, and keep credit/debit card details in your profile, then our system will attempt to renew a domain for you. If this happens, we are unable to refund the cost of this renewal as it is done in real time and cannot be reversed at the Registries.

Now you may or may not agree with what 123-reg are doing, that is of course entirely your choice.
However saying that they gave you no warning is incorrect.
I have at work some renewal notifications for a couple of domains which I shall happily copy & paste into this thread if you like.
On both messages it clearly states that should I NOT wish to have these domains renewed then I should log into my control panel and set them to "allow to expire" - something that would take a few seconds to do at most.

Positive renewal systems in no way makes a company a "bunch of cowboys" - far from it.
They are in fact protecting your investment.
Now imagine for a second one of your domains expired and the next day 123-reg grabbed it back and told you that you could buy it back from them for £200.
That would be indicative of bad business practice.
You however have simply not read the FAQ or the renewal e-mails you've been sent.

[blondmark]

Bladerunner - What your comments fail to address is that consumers have free choice as to whether or not they wish to respond to the constant stream of offers they receive every day.

As explained already:

" . . . you do not have to pay for the Viagra or penis extensions offered to you daily in your e-mail, even if the vendors unlawfully gain access to your bank account and debit payment for them, as [123-reg has] done. Neither do you have to take any steps to inform the offerors that you do not wish to accept their offers. Moreover you do not need to seek out, learn or follow any special procedures set up by offerors in order to decline their offers. All you need do is to ignore them. The onus is firmly on the offeror to establish that valid acceptance has taken place and has been communicated to the offeror before a binding contract is reached..."

Do you seriously imagine that I am legally bound to accept each and every offer I receive, just because I did not take active steps to decline them? If that were true, which it isn’t, then I would have miles of warehouses stocked with Viagra, penis extensions and fake diplomas.

As for contractual terms being secreted in FAQs, they are completely invalid, since the law requires a company’s Terms & Conditions to be contained in a document called “Terms & Conditions”.

The law of contract is simple, straightforward and fair. Unless I say I want it, then I don't want it!

Simple really!

M. Melville

[Bladerunner]

123-reg are a well respected company on these forums.
They have amny customers here - mainly because of their excellent prices on .uk domains.
They have customers worldwide - a search here will reveal many, many threads on them.

The positive renewal system has been in place at 123-reg for a very long time.
123-reg will first contact you when a domain is 90 days away from renewal (If I remember correctly, it might be 60 days).
They then continue to send you regular renewal information until you either:

1. Renew the domain
2. Log intoy our account and check "allow to expire"
3. The domain does actually expire because they don't have your CC details on file and the expiry date came and went.

Every single e-mail reminder they sent you would have had the same basic instructions on.
Those being, in essence:

"We operate a positive renewal system. If you wish to allow a domain to expire then take the time to log in and tell us".

Now you have choosen to ignore these messages.
As 123-reg themselves say on no less than 10 occasions you will have received an e-mail telling you that unless you say otherwise they will attempt to renew your domain for you using the credit card details you supplied.
If you didn't receive a single one of those e-mail messages then that is your own fault for not keeping your contact details up to date.
If you did receive each of those e-mail messages and couldn't be bothered to spend literally a minute logging into the control panel and checking the "allow to expire" option then you just as muich to blame again.

Have you noticed that you haven't suddenly got hundreds of people joing you on this one?
As I said above there are a lot of people on these forums who use 123-reg.
Nobody yet has posted that they were not aware of the positive renewal system.
Nobody yet has posted how indeed the company are a "bunch of cowboys" - not wishing to sound nasty here but you do seem to be on your own in the corner.
People will not have missed your post because the post subject was very obvious and anybody who use 123-reg for domains would want to know what this post was all about.

I'm sorry but this is another example of somebody not reading through all of the documentation open to them.
Ignoring the wording of an e-mail which quite clearly states what is going to happen and then coming along and moaning and complaining after the event has happened - oh and throwing in a little lawsuit and threat of legal action at the same time.

I personally would be impressed if some of the many 123-reg customers here on the froums joined you on your crusade - I don't see them doing so which means that everyone else didn't have a problem with how the system worked?

[blondmark]

Bladerunner - Once again, you are choosing to miss the point.

As you know, the issue here is that, in common with all consumers, I have free choice as to how I decide to spend my hard earned cash. If a company wants my money, then I have to consent to accept their goods or services, and I have to agree to pay for them. In this case I did neither.

For some reason you seem to imagine that I have some sort of duty to read all junk mail and follow all the instructions in every one, and formally decline every unwanted offer, and deliberately fend off every service that doesn't interest me. Perhaps that is how you spend your life, and that is a matter for you. However you certainly aren't liable to pay for any unsolicited goods or services you didn't order. In fact, 123-reg are no different from an other junk mailers offering Viagra, penis extensions or fake diplomas. Consumers who don't want their additional services simply don't need to read them or respond to them. End of story.

If I decide to renew a domain then I am perfectly capable of doing so. Equally, if I choose not to, then I am free to make that choice, as I frequently do without difficulty using Registerfly and Redstation. Either way, I have the inalienable right not to have unwanted and unsolicited 123-reg domain renewal services foisted on me without my knowledge or consent, or to have my bank account plundered by criminals.

[Lubeca]

I don't have an axe to grind - I'm neither a customer of 123-reg, nor do I work for them. But I'm a UK resident, and I work in the industry, and I'm sorry to tell you, Blondmark, that you are simply wrong.

1) You have a business relationship with 123-reg. If two parties are in a business relationship then I think it is entirely normal and natural for both sides to assume that they will read each other's emails. If you refuse to read emails from a supplier you've only got yourself to blame if you miss something important. Would you bin bank and credit card statements unread?

2) It is entirely normal and commonplace here in the UK to have contracts which roll on indefinitely unless one party decides to cancel. I have car insurance, home contents insurance, building insurance, health insurance, all paid for by monthly direct debit. Once a year I get a letter from each of my insurance companies saying "Your insurance is due for renewal. If we don't receive your instructions to the contrary we will continue to collect your payments by direct debit". I remember I once wanted to cancel a policy, but mislaid the letter and forgot. My own fault - I wouldn't have dreamt of blaming the insurance company.

I think you're wasting your time and money by trying to take legal action - and if 123-reg were to sue you for defamation for publishing all this here I'd fall over laughing!

[Dave Zan]

Hey Blondmark.

I hope my post doesn't imply I'm siding against you.
I work closely with many domain registrars so I'm
familiar, to a certain degree, with the way they work.

True, each and every one of us has the free will and
choice whom to deal with. But freedom also entails
another important item: responsibility.

Like many, if not, all the items we pay our hard-
earned money for, each item comes with a certain
degree of responsibility we have to deal with
whether we like it or not.

When you get a washing machine, it's your
responsibility (or not) to use it with care. When you
open a bank account, it's your responsibility (or not)
to maintain it.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but did you probably think
(perceive, believe, not sure what the right term should
be) that you could just ignore their notices and just
move on? As you learned by now, this isn't one of
those cases.

On the registrar's side, it's their responsibility to
manage your domain name for the duration of the
payment. It's also their responsibility (as stated in
their notice) that they have to inform you that your
domain will expire unless renewed or not.

Now, many of them have a sort of built-in auto-
renew system that renews a domain name using
the credit card info in the account as long as it's
valid within a certain time period before expiration.
This spares many customers the inconvenience of
forgetting or not receiving their renewals so they
can move on to other things.

Even w/ the auto-renew, the registrar will still send
a courtesy notice, anyway, to cover all their bases
in case their customers don't use the auto-renew
& change their minds later on.

Registars (or resellers, not sure w/c one 123 is)
don't want to make changes to their customers'
domain accounts just like that because, primarily,
they don't want to be accused of doing so in the
1st place. So they always advise them to log
inside and make the changes themselves, if they
can.

With the many customers 123 (and other
businesses for that matter) has, they can't
assume w/c portion of their customers will
renew with them or not. But at least they gave
options.

They have the right, of course, to decide what
products/services to offer and how to offer them.
You don't like them, time to change.

You may not necessarily agree with their business
practices. But while you're with that entity,
it's your responsibility to understand how they
work and work with what you got with them.

(I've had my share, too, though it's in another
line of business. Just another lesson learned,
I guess).

Of course, this is all just my view. We agree to
disagree.

Just pm me if you need more info on how to deal
with them. In fact, I'm writing something about
them...

[blondmark]

I have to say that I'm quite amazed that the laws of England seem to play no part in these postings. Let's just run through it all once again from a legal perspective ....

1. Acceptance and consent are mandatory requirements of all contracts - with 123-reg there was no acceptance and no consent, (i.e. no agreement).

2. Consensus ad idem (we both agree on the same thing) is a mandatory requirement of all contracts - with 123-reg there wasn't any, (i.e. no agreement).

3. Important contractual terms that give rise to a liability can only be published in certain places such as in a company's "Terms & Conditions", "Conditions of Sale" or "Terms of Trading" - with 123-reg it wasn't, (i.e. no agreement).

4. Whilst a previous course of dealings can give rise to imputed knowledge of contractual terms, this applies only insofar as they have been previously served on the parties (supra) - with 123-reg they weren't, (i.e. no agreement).

5. Offerees have no duty or obligation to read unsolicited offers, or to refuse them, or to respond to them, even if the offeror has previously conducted business with the offeree. The suggestion that I have any sort of responsibility to 123-reg to read their offers and respond to them has no basis whatever in English law. If goods or services are not actively ordered then there is no deal, any more than you'd have to pay for a box full of books arriving from Amazon you knew nothing about, (i.e. no agreement).

6. Companies can never spring additional unwanted unsolicited services on their customers and form a binding contract that entitles them to payment. It's really no different from your local decorator deciding he'd like to paint your house orange while you're on holiday and reusing your credit card details to pay himself from your bank account, (i.e. no agreement + theft).

Specifically addressing Lubeca's point, you start by pretending that you "don't have any axe to grind", but then you finish by saying that you'd "fall over laughing" if I were sued for defamation. Do you know what, Lubeca? ... you have an axe to grind!

But then so do I - my bank account has been plundered by criminals unlawfully reusing my confidential account details without authority, who then threatened to shut my businesses down if I pursue my legal right to reclaim my own money through my own bankers in the normal way. You bet I have an axe to grind!

More specifically though, the erroneous assumption that some sort of law exists that gives rise to a legal responsibility to scrutinise, or even glance at, any offers that arrive from a company you have done business with, just in case you need to take steps to decline their offers is, itself, simply wrong. There is no such law. The default position in law, whether or not you have a business relationship with a supplier, is that the offer is already declined unless and until you communicate acceptance.

Contracts do indeed roll on as you describe, but they only contain the same terms as those correctly served on the parties, which are reflected in the company's Terms & Conditions. Autorenewals, for example, do not appear in 123-reg's T&C's and are simply not incorporated as part of our agreement.

Addressing your point, davezan, the responsibility that you have with a party with which you have, or do, conduct business with does not (I repeat NOT) extend to any obligation to fend off, decline or respond to unsolicited and unwanted offers this company may make. In fact, I didn’t know they were offering autorenewals, but in law I did not need to know – the onus is on them to incorporate this within their T&Ss. I do not need to change suppliers if I don't fancy their offers - I need only fail to accept them - then, in English law, there's no deal. I am free to order those services I do actually want, and to ignore those I don't want.

If a box full of dildoes arrives on your doorstep from a company you'd once bought condoms from, with a resulting hole in your bank account where you money once was, and then they made unlawful threats to destroy your business if you claimed your money back, I dare say you'd also sue!

[Lubeca]

The only axe I have to grind is that your postings remind me SO MUCH of an "awkward customer" episode I once had to handle - right down to the "binning mail unread" bit.

This customer ended up having to pay everything he owed...

[blondmark]

OK Lubeca ... you rave on about your awkward customer and I'll address the judge in the only language he understands.

English Contract Law.

[Postmaster]

I have a domain in my 123reg.co.uk account which was due to expire and I also have red writing in my account telling me this. I wish for this domain to be expired so I link in the link that says "Allow Domains to Expire" and this comes up

" There are currently no domains in your account which are due for renewal in the next year. You should receive renewal notices via email when there are some domains present.

The renewal notices will be sent to the email address you have listed in your Personal Information section so please ensure this is up to date."

basically I remember deleting this email because I thought I would go into my account and intruct it to expire but it wont let me.

So I have removed my credit card details till it gets out of redemtion period.

[Bladerunner]

I can hardly contain myself in the waiting on this one:

Judge - So 123-reg, do you make customers aware of a positive renewal system?
123-reg - Yes we do
Judge - Exactly how many times do you make contact with the customer before attempting to charge his stored credit card details?
123-reg - We send approx. 10 e-mail notifications. Each one explains positive renewal and asks him to cancel the domain if he no longer requires it.
Judge - Do you make it difficult for a customer to cancel a domain?
123-reg - No, all the customer needs to do is log into his control panel, check a box saying "allow domain to expire" and that is it.
Judge - 123-reg, are you taking money two years later for any service OTHER than what the customer signed up for 2 years previously?
123-reg - No, the customer signed up for 2 years of domain ownership. Using positive renewal we are simply charging him again two years later.
Judge - Kind of like a rolling subscription and you ask 10 times before taking payment if the customer wishes to continue paying the amount?
123-reg - Exactly like that, we also give full instructions on each of the 10 notifications on how to cancel this subscription.

It's not going to take long to see which direction this one goes in.
Please feel free to report back in a few months time, I'm sure we'll all be interested to hear how much your court fees were and if 123-reg decide to counter-sue etc.

[blondmark]

Bladerunner - I'm getting awfully bored of inviting you to address the legal issues.

You just don't get it, do you?

Try, once again, to get your head around the fact that in English law it makes absolutely no difference how many times a company spams you with offers of services - there is no deal until you actually accept them and also communicate your acceptance. End of story!

[blondmark]

Postmaster - removing your credit card details from your 123-reg account was a smart move - my only regret is trusting 123-reg with mine!

[Postmaster]

as much as I'am fond of 123reg.co.uk and customer of them.. I have to edmit that what blondmark says is in fact true. I have domains automatically renewd in my 123reg.co.uk with out my permission in the past, who on earth gave them the right? They have no right playing with peoples finances like that, only if the person has not agreed by mouth, email, or writing.