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  1. #1
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    Exclamation Advice and Suggestions for Webhosting Providers

    Firstly, once you've taken my money, whitelist my email address.

    Secondly, once you've taken my money, whitelist my email address:

    I take the time to do this for you (OddFact knows I goof sometimes...) so you won't be inconvenienced by my spam filter. I expect the same in return. At this point, "Your email got caught in our spam filter," from a webhosting, email or other provider must be considered grounds for immediate cancellation.

    Thirdly, once you've taken my money, don't make me do your job, i.e. troubleshooting:

    You have paid employees who should -
    --verify the whois information, if a domain was registered
    --verify that the IP address, if assigned, functions
    --verify the domain name has indeed propagated correctly

    *Then and ONLY then* may you send me your welcome letter!

    I have a very simple 'test' I apply when I get the 'confirmation letter'. I upload a test page. I view the test page. Today I posted good marks for three 'shared' webhosts. None scored better than 50% on my simple test, however. Since this seems to be so widespread, at this point I don't deem it grounds for cancellation. But puh-leeze. NRS.

    If you hosts would please do your jobs _before_ sending that confirmation letter, you would have fewer tech support tickets, from clueless newbies as well as jaded old salts. Am I asking too much? Seems like this would be in your best interests on many levels, why isn't this standard practice? Particularly since Bobcares could provide this service for you for what, a nickel a customer?

    Fourthly:

    It is a riot to watch some folks here kvetch at each other over 'tarnishing the reputation of the industry' by offering 'unlimited' accounts. See my 'Simpsons' blatant-copyright-infringement post. My point is, the Frying Dutchman does no damage to the reputation of the Springfield restaurant industry as a whole by offering an all-you-can-eat seafood buffet.

    This sort of thing has been going on for a loooooong time in all industries. In the ISP industry, many are now defining 'unlimited broadband access' as 128Kbps for 150 hours. It's hard to compete with that if you call 600 hours a month at 512Kbps your 'limited' account! Limited Accounts!!! Only $74.95 per month!!! HURRY!!! Good luck.

    The consumer (except maybe Homer) is bright enough to take these things with a grain of salt. MUCH MORE DAMAGING to the reputation of your industry are blatantly ridiculous claims of activating accounts in 'x' hours, particularly if a domain name is involved.

    Given the propagation issue, you should ALL know better. 24-hour activation was promised me by six hosts in the past year. NONE beat 48 hours, and that's being generous because none of those accounts but one worked properly when I did get the confirmation letter. JohnCompanies, btw.

    I know all about 'domain propagation issues.' I understand the meaning of 'implementing a bugfix on Virtuozzo.' I've been doing this since 1993, you? I PITY those who are new at this, when they are confronted with these terms! There's 10x more to grasp these days. To those who don't know the lingo it just sounds like excuses anyway. I'm sure I speak for most consumers when I say I just want the thing to work 'turnkey' 'out of the box.'

    I could care less if you take a few more hours than the next guy to activate my account, if it means I don't have to spend that few hours DOING YOUR JOB FOR YOU. Make sure all aspects of the account work before releasing it to the customer.

    Fifth(ly), on a friendlier note, teach your techs how to upsell. If I contact support and ask if I can do thus-and-such with my account, I understand I may need to upgrade my account. Too often, a tier-1 tech will leave it at, "You can't do that at your present account level, sorry."

    The preferred response is, "If you'd like to upgrade to our 'whatever' service level, we can do that for you." If that would be a lie, another preferred response would be, "We'll look into providing that feature." This makes me feel like you care!

    Lastly, when you do have problems:
    Hooray for fixing it. But follow up if I ask. I need to make an honest assessment of your competency to host my business presence. I'm less likely to cancel my account if I don't think you'll have the exact same problem in the future. You don't have to overwhelm all customers with tech info. But when I have downtime I stress and reiterate with my host the importance of keeping me 'in the loop' vis-a-vis downtime mitigation.

    I prefer the oldest spelling, "collocation," because that form of the word has its roots in words like "collude" and "collaborate". I choose not to deal with the Verios and Qwests out there because they are uncaring heartless *******s and ****of*******, and these scoundrels do not have the small website's interests on their radar screen. (G'head and try to sue me for slander, I dare ya. You know I speak sooth.) This attitude (which others share with me) makes for the wonderful variety of options out there for webhosting - or would you rather it was like Operating Systems? I like webhosting companies whom I can perceive as a business partner, not an adversary.

    I will now get down from my HIGH HORSE!
    Eric J. Bowman, principal
    Bison Systems Corporation coming soon: a new sig!
    I'm just a poor, unfrozen caveman Webmaster. Your new 'standards' frighten, and confuse me...

  2. #2
    Thirdly, once you've taken my money, don't make me do your job, i.e. troubleshooting:

    You have paid employees who should -
    --verify the whois information, if a domain was registered
    --verify that the IP address, if assigned, functions
    --verify the domain name has indeed propagated correctly

    *Then and ONLY then* may you send me your welcome letter!
    You want your welcome letter sent out after you've already changed the nameservers, but before you get the information to actually upload your site/use the control panel/any other function on the new server so the site is actually up when the nameserver changes propagate?

    It is a riot to watch some folks here kvetch at each other over 'tarnishing the reputation of the industry' by offering 'unlimited' accounts. See my 'Simpsons' blatant-copyright-infringement post. My point is, the Frying Dutchman does no damage to the reputation of the Springfield restaurant industry as a whole by offering an all-you-can-eat seafood buffet.

    This sort of thing has been going on for a loooooong time in all industries. In the ISP industry, many are now defining 'unlimited broadband access' as 128Kbps for 150 hours. It's hard to compete with that if you call 600 hours a month at 512Kbps your 'limited' account! Limited Accounts!!! Only $74.95 per month!!! HURRY!!! Good luck.
    So, since the ISPs do it, it's perfectly fine for people to offer something that isn't possible. Check. For the record, as you know, from reading the previous thread, I am one who firmly believes that actions such as these do in fact hurt the industry by turning people who would be good clients into people who are irritated and expect the worst from every host because of a few bad ones engaging in misleading and false advertising. It is for this same reason that some ISPs and phone companies have horrible reputations: what they're offering is not a true and honest offer. It affects others in the industry because it creates unrealistic expectations in the consumer.

    The consumer (except maybe Homer) is bright enough to take these things with a grain of salt.
    No, the generic consumer isn't, actually, or people would not be surprised when their "unlimited" host suddenly cuts them off.

    MUCH MORE DAMAGING to the reputation of your industry are blatantly ridiculous claims of activating accounts in 'x' hours, particularly if a domain name is involved.
    Every place I've seen offering this is talking about the base account, not the domain that goes with it. That is, the account for which you don't seem to want to receive the welcome email until the domain is resolving to a place that doesn't have any files (because you don't want the welcome email beforehand to upload your material). A domain not being active (because it is not registered or nameserver changes have not yet propagated) does not preclude an account from being generated for the convenience of the client so they can tend to business prior to resolution.

    Verio..Qwest
    Verio and Qwest are huge, indeed, and more likely to treat people like a number rather than as individuals. I wish both were more swift about dealing with abuse complaints. Might make some of the traffic from various portions of their networks more bearable.
    Annette
    Hosting Matters, Inc.
    Superior service. Sensible price.

  3. #3
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    I agree with you on every count, Annette.

    While BigBison brings up some valid points, they seem to be written from the perfect world point of view, where every web hosting client is one that knows just as much about web hosting as the provider. This is just not the case.

    I think that sending the welcome e-mail out after DNS propagation will generate more problems than sending it before. Imagine the e-mails that would be received asking why their account has not been set up yet. I have tried the approach where you post a notice on the site stating accounts are set up in 'x' hours, but more often that not, it is either not read, or ignored completely.

    Like Annette said, account activation is referring to just that, the activation of the account. All of the welcome e-mails that I have come across include account login information, and a temporary URL to use until the domain information has propagated. My own welcome e-mail sent out to clients includes the same information, and I have never once had any complaint about not being able to access a site. It is clearly stated that it could take up to 72 hours for the files they upload to be accessible from their domain name.

    Your input is appreciated, BigBison, but you seem to be writing it from some fairy-tale land, where everything works the way you think it should, and the consumer actually researches and learns about the product they are buying. If this were how things actually did work, and every consumer was well educated about the product, claims meant to mislead (like 'unlimited' offers) would not exist at all.

  4. #4
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    Originally posted by Annette
    You want your welcome letter sent out after you've already changed the nameservers, but before you get the information to actually upload your site/use the control panel/any other function on the new server so the site is actually up when the nameserver changes propagate?
    Annette, you make some excellent points but you've missed my point here. I'm talking about receiving a welcome letter that says my domain is good to go, when in fact it hadn't even been registered. Two outfits did this. I'm saying, don't let me do a whois a week later and find the domain available to anybody.

    Also, with two other companies, the welcome letter was sent before the domain was set up and that is fine. I wasn't setting up DNS, the host was - setting up the 'www' hostname typically isn't left to the customer. If, however, the incorrect IP address is entered... this is what some preventive checking would avoid.

    Many hosts give a raw IP address, or one of their named hosts for FTP transfer. If I upload a file there, and then browse that IP address I was sent, I want to see my page. I'm not looking at the domain name, though, just an apparently misconfigured IP address.
    Eric J. Bowman, principal
    Bison Systems Corporation coming soon: a new sig!
    I'm just a poor, unfrozen caveman Webmaster. Your new 'standards' frighten, and confuse me...

  5. #5
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    Eric, I'd say stay up there on your high horse and ride it. Experienced customers can teach hosts many things and it is a wise host who listens well, then acts.

    We all need a good lesson in how to actively listen to customers and I plan on bringing up a few of your points in tomorrows support staff meeting.

    Thanks for the lesson!
    Last edited by WebWeavers; 06-23-2004 at 12:53 AM.
    Darrell Williams, CEO
    WebWeavers Internet Services

  6. #6
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    Originally posted by miakeru
    Your input is appreciated, BigBison, but you seem to be writing it from some fairy-tale land, where everything works the way you think it should,
    NRS=Not Rocket Science. If a host's welcome letter gives out a bad temporary URL or the wrong IP address, it's a mistake an entry-level summer tech intern could catch. Perhaps sending out the confirmation after propagation is a bit harsh, the point I'm trying to make is all too often perhaps those are sent out too hastily. All I'm asking, is does anybody check their work?
    Eric J. Bowman, principal
    Bison Systems Corporation coming soon: a new sig!
    I'm just a poor, unfrozen caveman Webmaster. Your new 'standards' frighten, and confuse me...

  7. #7
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    BigBison and Annette,

    I see where both of you are coming from and I agree with both of you. And I have to say that achieving what BigBison wants with multiple servers can be very taxing to get accomplished and to do it you have to know your company, your servers, your products, etc.. inside and out.

    1. We use ModernBill so the account activation letter is sent "After" the account is created on our servers.

    2. Again, due to the software the domain Welcome email is sent after it is registerd and our welcome letter does state it could take 24-48 hours to propogate.

    Now the problems come in.

    1. DNS. We have 4 Shared hosting servers and getting ready to bring number 5 online. These are mixed of windows and linux so now we have a problem because you have to send different DNS for each server. Luckily it appears we finally have a solution for this, and if not, back to the drawing board on the custom one we are building so we can get away from this nightmarish DNS mess of one two many servers.

    2. Preview URL. Luckily with ModernBill we can pull this from various areas. We just recently finished new welcome emails to do this. But for other hosts using other software they may not be able to do this and name based hosting requires a preview URL since you can't use the IP.

    And I completely agree with upselling. That is part of this business and a required necessity.

    But, back to what I was getting at, much of this isn't easy to accomplish and smaller hosts, even with the knowledge, may not be able to. So, you have to give them a break and base not only off how things come up but also how they react to a problem in the way something comes online.

  8. #8
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    Re: Thanks for the lesson!

    Thank you, Darrell and Larry.

    Seems to me, the webhosting fairy-tale land is the same one that begat Pinocchio.
    Eric J. Bowman, principal
    Bison Systems Corporation coming soon: a new sig!
    I'm just a poor, unfrozen caveman Webmaster. Your new 'standards' frighten, and confuse me...

  9. #9
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    Unfortunately there are a whole lot of Pinocchios in the hosting fairy-tale land that harm the industry with their tales.

    Best Wishes for a Net Success!
    Darrell Williams, CEO
    WebWeavers Internet Services

  10. #10
    BigBison, I love the Homer story. I think we should make a thread entitled the Simpson's as they pertain to web hosting . In regards to your point about viewing site by IP...most hosts use name-based hosting which is basically the industry standard due to ARIN regulations for IP distribution. Due to this, you can't preview your site by simply going to the IP you uploaded to because it's a shared IP. I will give the example for cPanel since it's one of the most common formats. Most cPanel hosts configure their servers to allow users to view their sites by going to:

    http://serverIP/~username/

    Some hosts may disable this function in order to prevent unmonitored bandwidth abuse, but many hosts allow it. Most of you probably already know all this stuff, including BigBison, so don't think I'm insulting intelligence...just providing a hint for some of the newbies.

  11. #11
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    Originally posted by integrityhost
    In regards to your point about viewing site by IP...most hosts use name-based hosting which is basically the industry standard due to ARIN regulations for IP distribution. Due to this, you can't preview your site by simply going to the IP you uploaded to because it's a shared IP.
    Thanks for the cPanel tip, Eric. I did not know that. When I provision webhosting, I always specify a dedicated IP address and maybe this is what throws off some of these welcome emails, if they're expecting me to use a shared IP. If someone sells me an IP address as a value-add, they should get it working before giving me the address.
    Eric J. Bowman, principal
    Bison Systems Corporation coming soon: a new sig!
    I'm just a poor, unfrozen caveman Webmaster. Your new 'standards' frighten, and confuse me...

  12. #12
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    I would always suggest you register your own domain name this way you know the name servers have been changed and the domain has been ordered. Good luck understand your frustration

  13. #13
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    Good point Sandee. However, I've noticed many automated setup scripts assume I'll be registering a domain name, and leave no other option. If a company doesn't have telephone sales reps, I just come up with a domain name that isn't really important to me but just might come in handy someday maybe.

    Otherwise, a week would never pass without the registration because yes, I do that my way. My critical domain names are all hosted on UltraDNS and registrared(?) with an old friend.

    Except osteoporosis.org, which I purchased some weeks ago and IS BEING HELD HOSTAGE BY VERIO... but that's a topic for another thread, and just freakin' typical, ya know?
    Eric J. Bowman, principal
    Bison Systems Corporation coming soon: a new sig!
    I'm just a poor, unfrozen caveman Webmaster. Your new 'standards' frighten, and confuse me...

  14. #14
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    That is why I do not like auto signups as to many problems. We verify all info and set the account up manually so as there is no mistakes. I tried the automatic account setup and way to many problems with fraud,spammers and the domains setup on the wrong server.

    I read these forums every day and it amazes me of some of the stories you see here. There are a lot of hosting companies who participate on these forums who are excellent hosts but you have a lot of new startups that are only interested in one thing. How much of your money they can put in your pocket before they close up shop. I don't know how they seem to get away with it but they do.
    Last edited by colorteck; 06-23-2004 at 02:23 AM.

  15. #15
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    Yup. The scammer who contributed greatly to putting my first Internet venture OOB 4 yrs ago was Screaming Internet, which was also access4cheap and a slew of other discount ISPs and webhosting providers. Never even got mentioned here! The perpetrator has apparently been run out of a couple of other states, since packing up his servers and leaving CO last October. Never pays suppliers, only bills upfront for a year, and somehow manages to keep billing people's cards until they cancel the card, you'd think he'd be unable to get a merchant account but you'd be wrong. No, he's not Shang.

    Did I mention whitelisting customers' email addresses? If a mistake does occur during signup, and then the support email doesn't go through, you've got a legitimately upset customer. This one is so obvious, I think I'll mention it several dozen more times this week.
    Last edited by BigBison; 06-23-2004 at 02:37 AM.
    Eric J. Bowman, principal
    Bison Systems Corporation coming soon: a new sig!
    I'm just a poor, unfrozen caveman Webmaster. Your new 'standards' frighten, and confuse me...

  16. #16
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    Out of sight and out of mind. If people aren't talking bad about you ,then it is a good thing.
    Patron: I'd like my free lunch please.
    Cafe Manager: Free lunch? Did you read the fine print stating it was an April Fool's joke.
    Patron: I read the same way I listen, I ignore the parts I don't agree with. I'm suing you for false advertising.
    Cafe Owner: Is our lawyer still working pro bono?

  17. #17
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    Originally posted by pixel_fenix
    Out of sight and out of mind. If people aren't talking bad about you ,then it is a good thing.
    But then, how would you know you're alive? If no one's talking bad about you, maybe you're doing something wrong!
    Eric J. Bowman, principal
    Bison Systems Corporation coming soon: a new sig!
    I'm just a poor, unfrozen caveman Webmaster. Your new 'standards' frighten, and confuse me...

  18. #18
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    seraphex are pretty good. top job guys!

  19. #19
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    One thing to consider with MB is that you can create custom letters to customers. With each domain order or transfer we send an additional letter to the customers informing them how the Domain registration works. It lets them know that it may take up to 72 hours, though it doesn't these days, for the domain to show up throughout the Internet.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    UrNode - Virtual Solutions
    http://www.UrNode.com

  20. #20
    Originally posted by BigBison
    Annette, you make some excellent points but you've missed my point here. I'm talking about receiving a welcome letter that says my domain is good to go, when in fact it hadn't even been registered. Two outfits did this. I'm saying, don't let me do a whois a week later and find the domain available to anybody.
    I understood your point, I simply disagree. If you're receiving a welcome email that says your domain is "good to go", I'd imagine that what it really says is that your (base) account has been set up, and here's some temporary access information until the domain is active. Most welcome emails are fairly generic, and most have some sort of information about new domains, as well as information about the nameservers tht should be used (and let's face it here: mst hosts have pitiful documentation, so finding the nameservers that should be used is not always a simple task). If you pay someone for a domain registration and they don't do it, that's a failure at the host's end and I can't quite see how that connects to having initial access information be available or not. If the temporary information is incorrect, that's something that should be noted in any reviews of the host.

    Scenario 1: User signs up at a host, also orders a domreg, pays, receives their payment notice, receives a welcome email. They use the information in that welcome email to upload their site, log in to their control panel to create POPs, add databases, whatever. When the domain is active, presto, the site is ready to go, probably with some minor tweaks. Happiness all around.

    Scenario 2: User signs up at a host, also orders a domreg, pays, receives their payment notice, receives no welcome email. They wait. Wait some more. 24 hours later, still no welcome email. If they found that host via WHT, 99% of them will run right back to WHT and post a message about how Hostx stinks because they paid and still have nothing from the host.

    The same applies for DNS changes: what if the user wants to test things or get everything in place before propagation? What if they deliberately hold on changing the nameservers while some other consideration is being handled? I can't think of a single good reason not to send a welcome email to a client, whether a new domreg or existing. I can think of all sorts of reasons why not sending one would be bad for the client and for the host.

    ...

    Many hosts give a raw IP address, or one of their named hosts for FTP transfer. If I upload a file there, and then browse that IP address I was sent, I want to see my page. I'm not looking at the domain name, though, just an apparently misconfigured IP address.
    As noted by someone else, with named-based hosting, you're not going to see your site at a shared IP typically, unless you're the first entry in the apache configuration for that IP (and then everyone else sharing that IP will be writing to support asking why your site is there). If you select a dedicated IP and the host gives you the incorrect IP, well - that's something to add to a review of the host.

    I'm in complete agreement with you that details are important, and I've said so often in public and private - not just how it relates to hosting: yesterday's lunch was served up by a waiter who couldn't get half of a two-person order correct. Disappointing.

    Except osteoporosis.org, which I purchased some weeks ago and IS BEING HELD HOSTAGE BY VERIO... but that's a topic for another thread, and just freakin' typical, ya know?
    Hostage in what way?
    Last edited by Annette; 06-23-2004 at 09:52 AM.
    Annette
    Hosting Matters, Inc.
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  21. #21
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    On the unlimited thing I can tell you this: Just because something happens, doesn't really make it right. I mean, why not say it's UNLIMITED and FREE and then define "free" in the small print as being "very cheap".

  22. #22
    Originally posted by ldcdc
    define "free" in the small print as being "very cheap".
    Good idea! (JK...even I have my limits) Although once again there are many industries where this is common practice. They use the word FREE in the advertising, then the small print says you have to buy something else to get the free item. Don't worry...I'm not saying that means we should apply it to the web hosting industry.

  23. #23
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    Annette, if I agree you're not missing my point, then I must say you're making some false assumptions.

    I'm well aware that _if_ there's a domain registration involved, there are TWO letters, one saying the account is activated and the next saying the domain registration is done. I don't want to post the particular letters in question as that would not be fair to those hosts. But I think in general, you need to re-read what I've said with an open mind. I never meant to imply I was even using shared IPs on name-based hosting, let alone that I was having trouble with that.

    Also, your arguments against all hosts who offer 'unlimited' hosting are invalid, IMHO. By your logic, since I've been burned by a host who offered 10MB storage / 10GB transfers, that all hosts offering this service level at a competitive price are to be avoided.

    The term is 'caveat emptor' and this is the law in the U.S. Most of the complaints about 'limits' placed on 'unlimited' accounts, to me look more like efforts to define 'webhosting' by excluding usages such as data backup.

    Verio is the overall registrar for the .org TLD. When I finally got through to an employee of Verio, not someone in India, I was informed they have about 4 people assigned to this. I can't seem to get action because they're still on FEBRUARY!!! Apparently, all registrars who offer .org are to be avoided as well, because they can't possibly guarantee having any control over Verio's timetable on domain transfers (or even registrations) and could be blamed for fraudulent advertising.
    Eric J. Bowman, principal
    Bison Systems Corporation coming soon: a new sig!
    I'm just a poor, unfrozen caveman Webmaster. Your new 'standards' frighten, and confuse me...

  24. #24
    Originally posted by BigBison
    Annette, if I agree you're not missing my point, then I must say you're making some false assumptions.
    Nope, only going by what you've posted.

    I'm well aware that _if_ there's a domain registration involved, there are TWO letters, one saying the account is activated and the next saying the domain registration is done.
    Not from us, there wouldn't be. You're assuming that every host does things exactly the same way, and it isn't so.

    I don't want to post the particular letters in question as that would not be fair to those hosts. But I think in general, you need to re-read what I've said with an open mind. I never meant to imply I was even using shared IPs on name-based hosting, let alone that I was having trouble with that.
    I did read it with an open mind, based on the information you posted. You said you wanted to go to an IP and see your site, and if you did not, this necessarily means there is some sort of misconfiguration. Two people have pointed out to you that this is not always true, especially if it's shared-IP hosting. Nothing more, nothing less.

    Also, your arguments against all hosts who offer 'unlimited' hosting are invalid, IMHO. By your logic, since I've been burned by a host who offered 10MB storage / 10GB transfers, that all hosts offering this service level at a competitive price are to be avoided.
    Sigh. What part of this is so difficult to understand: there is *no such thing* as unlimited space or bandwidth. Those who make these sorts of claims are a) lying and b) creating the false impression in consumers who don't know any better that these things exist. Your unhappiness with RandomProvider who you left because of any sort of issue other than such claims has nothing to do with this, nor did I suggest such an analogy.

    The term is 'caveat emptor' and this is the law in the U.S. Most of the complaints about 'limits' placed on 'unlimited' accounts, to me look more like efforts to define 'webhosting' by excluding usages such as data backup.
    Redefining "unlimited" to mean "whatever I say it means right now as it relates to storage and bandwidth" is not ethical. Consumers are within their rights to apply for relief from claims that are found to be false. That is the law.

    Verio is the overall registrar for the .org TLD.
    No, they aren't. PIR is, since Verisign/NetSol disengaged themselves from the .org duties.

    When I finally got through to an employee of Verio, not someone in India, I was informed they have about 4 people assigned to this. I can't seem to get action because they're still on FEBRUARY!!!
    It still isn't clear what exact problem you're having here.

    Apparently, all registrars who offer .org are to be avoided as well, because they can't possibly guarantee having any control over Verio's timetable on domain transfers (or even registrations) and could be blamed for fraudulent advertising.
    Untrue. We just transferred some .org domains around, registered others, and had zero issues.
    Last edited by Annette; 06-23-2004 at 04:08 PM.
    Annette
    Hosting Matters, Inc.
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  25. #25
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    Verio is only a registrar and has nothing to do with a transfer unless they are purposefully holding it up. If there is no reason for them to be holding it up contact the PIR.ORG and speak with them as they control the .org TLD. Using the key system we have transfered multiple domains and done so in a matter of days without problems.

    And PIR.ORG owns the .org TLD, not verio no matter what they say.

    As for Unlimited, I agree with Annette. It is decieving advertsing.

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