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06-22-2004, 11:55 PM #1rogue element
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Advice and Suggestions for Webhosting Providers
Firstly, once you've taken my money, whitelist my email address.
Secondly, once you've taken my money, whitelist my email address:
I take the time to do this for you (OddFact knows I goof sometimes...) so you won't be inconvenienced by my spam filter. I expect the same in return. At this point, "Your email got caught in our spam filter," from a webhosting, email or other provider must be considered grounds for immediate cancellation.
Thirdly, once you've taken my money, don't make me do your job, i.e. troubleshooting:
You have paid employees who should -
--verify the whois information, if a domain was registered
--verify that the IP address, if assigned, functions
--verify the domain name has indeed propagated correctly
*Then and ONLY then* may you send me your welcome letter!
I have a very simple 'test' I apply when I get the 'confirmation letter'. I upload a test page. I view the test page. Today I posted good marks for three 'shared' webhosts. None scored better than 50% on my simple test, however. Since this seems to be so widespread, at this point I don't deem it grounds for cancellation. But puh-leeze. NRS.
If you hosts would please do your jobs _before_ sending that confirmation letter, you would have fewer tech support tickets, from clueless newbies as well as jaded old salts. Am I asking too much? Seems like this would be in your best interests on many levels, why isn't this standard practice? Particularly since Bobcares could provide this service for you for what, a nickel a customer?
Fourthly:
It is a riot to watch some folks here kvetch at each other over 'tarnishing the reputation of the industry' by offering 'unlimited' accounts. See my 'Simpsons' blatant-copyright-infringement post. My point is, the Frying Dutchman does no damage to the reputation of the Springfield restaurant industry as a whole by offering an all-you-can-eat seafood buffet.
This sort of thing has been going on for a loooooong time in all industries. In the ISP industry, many are now defining 'unlimited broadband access' as 128Kbps for 150 hours. It's hard to compete with that if you call 600 hours a month at 512Kbps your 'limited' account! Limited Accounts!!! Only $74.95 per month!!! HURRY!!! Good luck.
The consumer (except maybe Homer) is bright enough to take these things with a grain of salt. MUCH MORE DAMAGING to the reputation of your industry are blatantly ridiculous claims of activating accounts in 'x' hours, particularly if a domain name is involved.
Given the propagation issue, you should ALL know better. 24-hour activation was promised me by six hosts in the past year. NONE beat 48 hours, and that's being generous because none of those accounts but one worked properly when I did get the confirmation letter. JohnCompanies, btw.
I know all about 'domain propagation issues.' I understand the meaning of 'implementing a bugfix on Virtuozzo.' I've been doing this since 1993, you? I PITY those who are new at this, when they are confronted with these terms! There's 10x more to grasp these days. To those who don't know the lingo it just sounds like excuses anyway. I'm sure I speak for most consumers when I say I just want the thing to work 'turnkey' 'out of the box.'
I could care less if you take a few more hours than the next guy to activate my account, if it means I don't have to spend that few hours DOING YOUR JOB FOR YOU. Make sure all aspects of the account work before releasing it to the customer.
Fifth(ly), on a friendlier note, teach your techs how to upsell. If I contact support and ask if I can do thus-and-such with my account, I understand I may need to upgrade my account. Too often, a tier-1 tech will leave it at, "You can't do that at your present account level, sorry."
The preferred response is, "If you'd like to upgrade to our 'whatever' service level, we can do that for you." If that would be a lie, another preferred response would be, "We'll look into providing that feature." This makes me feel like you care!
Lastly, when you do have problems:
Hooray for fixing it. But follow up if I ask. I need to make an honest assessment of your competency to host my business presence. I'm less likely to cancel my account if I don't think you'll have the exact same problem in the future. You don't have to overwhelm all customers with tech info. But when I have downtime I stress and reiterate with my host the importance of keeping me 'in the loop' vis-a-vis downtime mitigation.
I prefer the oldest spelling, "collocation," because that form of the word has its roots in words like "collude" and "collaborate". I choose not to deal with the Verios and Qwests out there because they are uncaring heartless *******s and ****of*******, and these scoundrels do not have the small website's interests on their radar screen. (G'head and try to sue me for slander, I dare ya. You know I speak sooth.) This attitude (which others share with me) makes for the wonderful variety of options out there for webhosting - or would you rather it was like Operating Systems? I like webhosting companies whom I can perceive as a business partner, not an adversary.
I will now get down from my HIGH HORSE!Eric J. Bowman, principal
Bison Systems Corporation coming soon: a new sig!
I'm just a poor, unfrozen caveman Webmaster. Your new 'standards' frighten, and confuse me...
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06-23-2004, 12:13 AM #2Web Hosting Master
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Thirdly, once you've taken my money, don't make me do your job, i.e. troubleshooting:
You have paid employees who should -
--verify the whois information, if a domain was registered
--verify that the IP address, if assigned, functions
--verify the domain name has indeed propagated correctly
*Then and ONLY then* may you send me your welcome letter!
It is a riot to watch some folks here kvetch at each other over 'tarnishing the reputation of the industry' by offering 'unlimited' accounts. See my 'Simpsons' blatant-copyright-infringement post. My point is, the Frying Dutchman does no damage to the reputation of the Springfield restaurant industry as a whole by offering an all-you-can-eat seafood buffet.
This sort of thing has been going on for a loooooong time in all industries. In the ISP industry, many are now defining 'unlimited broadband access' as 128Kbps for 150 hours. It's hard to compete with that if you call 600 hours a month at 512Kbps your 'limited' account! Limited Accounts!!! Only $74.95 per month!!! HURRY!!! Good luck.
The consumer (except maybe Homer) is bright enough to take these things with a grain of salt.
MUCH MORE DAMAGING to the reputation of your industry are blatantly ridiculous claims of activating accounts in 'x' hours, particularly if a domain name is involved.
Verio..Qwest
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06-23-2004, 12:43 AM #3I'm good with computers.
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I agree with you on every count, Annette.
While BigBison brings up some valid points, they seem to be written from the perfect world point of view, where every web hosting client is one that knows just as much about web hosting as the provider. This is just not the case.
I think that sending the welcome e-mail out after DNS propagation will generate more problems than sending it before. Imagine the e-mails that would be received asking why their account has not been set up yet. I have tried the approach where you post a notice on the site stating accounts are set up in 'x' hours, but more often that not, it is either not read, or ignored completely.
Like Annette said, account activation is referring to just that, the activation of the account. All of the welcome e-mails that I have come across include account login information, and a temporary URL to use until the domain information has propagated. My own welcome e-mail sent out to clients includes the same information, and I have never once had any complaint about not being able to access a site. It is clearly stated that it could take up to 72 hours for the files they upload to be accessible from their domain name.
Your input is appreciated, BigBison, but you seem to be writing it from some fairy-tale land, where everything works the way you think it should, and the consumer actually researches and learns about the product they are buying. If this were how things actually did work, and every consumer was well educated about the product, claims meant to mislead (like 'unlimited' offers) would not exist at all.
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06-23-2004, 12:44 AM #4rogue element
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Originally posted by Annette
You want your welcome letter sent out after you've already changed the nameservers, but before you get the information to actually upload your site/use the control panel/any other function on the new server so the site is actually up when the nameserver changes propagate?
Also, with two other companies, the welcome letter was sent before the domain was set up and that is fine. I wasn't setting up DNS, the host was - setting up the 'www' hostname typically isn't left to the customer. If, however, the incorrect IP address is entered... this is what some preventive checking would avoid.
Many hosts give a raw IP address, or one of their named hosts for FTP transfer. If I upload a file there, and then browse that IP address I was sent, I want to see my page. I'm not looking at the domain name, though, just an apparently misconfigured IP address.Eric J. Bowman, principal
Bison Systems Corporation coming soon: a new sig!
I'm just a poor, unfrozen caveman Webmaster. Your new 'standards' frighten, and confuse me...
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06-23-2004, 12:48 AM #5Junior Guru
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Eric, I'd say stay up there on your high horse and ride it. Experienced customers can teach hosts many things and it is a wise host who listens well, then acts.
We all need a good lesson in how to actively listen to customers and I plan on bringing up a few of your points in tomorrows support staff meeting.
Thanks for the lesson!Last edited by WebWeavers; 06-23-2004 at 12:53 AM.
Darrell Williams, CEO
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06-23-2004, 12:54 AM #6rogue element
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Originally posted by miakeru
Your input is appreciated, BigBison, but you seem to be writing it from some fairy-tale land, where everything works the way you think it should,Eric J. Bowman, principal
Bison Systems Corporation coming soon: a new sig!
I'm just a poor, unfrozen caveman Webmaster. Your new 'standards' frighten, and confuse me...
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06-23-2004, 12:57 AM #7Web Hosting Master
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BigBison and Annette,
I see where both of you are coming from and I agree with both of you. And I have to say that achieving what BigBison wants with multiple servers can be very taxing to get accomplished and to do it you have to know your company, your servers, your products, etc.. inside and out.
1. We use ModernBill so the account activation letter is sent "After" the account is created on our servers.
2. Again, due to the software the domain Welcome email is sent after it is registerd and our welcome letter does state it could take 24-48 hours to propogate.
Now the problems come in.
1. DNS. We have 4 Shared hosting servers and getting ready to bring number 5 online. These are mixed of windows and linux so now we have a problem because you have to send different DNS for each server. Luckily it appears we finally have a solution for this, and if not, back to the drawing board on the custom one we are building so we can get away from this nightmarish DNS mess of one two many servers.
2. Preview URL. Luckily with ModernBill we can pull this from various areas. We just recently finished new welcome emails to do this. But for other hosts using other software they may not be able to do this and name based hosting requires a preview URL since you can't use the IP.
And I completely agree with upselling. That is part of this business and a required necessity.
But, back to what I was getting at, much of this isn't easy to accomplish and smaller hosts, even with the knowledge, may not be able to. So, you have to give them a break and base not only off how things come up but also how they react to a problem in the way something comes online.
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06-23-2004, 12:58 AM #8rogue element
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Re: Thanks for the lesson!
Thank you, Darrell and Larry.
Seems to me, the webhosting fairy-tale land is the same one that begat Pinocchio.Eric J. Bowman, principal
Bison Systems Corporation coming soon: a new sig!
I'm just a poor, unfrozen caveman Webmaster. Your new 'standards' frighten, and confuse me...
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06-23-2004, 01:12 AM #9Junior Guru
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Unfortunately there are a whole lot of Pinocchios in the hosting fairy-tale land that harm the industry with their tales.
Best Wishes for a Net Success!Darrell Williams, CEO
WebWeavers Internet Services
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06-23-2004, 01:17 AM #10Disabled
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BigBison, I love the Homer story. I think we should make a thread entitled the Simpson's as they pertain to web hosting . In regards to your point about viewing site by IP...most hosts use name-based hosting which is basically the industry standard due to ARIN regulations for IP distribution. Due to this, you can't preview your site by simply going to the IP you uploaded to because it's a shared IP. I will give the example for cPanel since it's one of the most common formats. Most cPanel hosts configure their servers to allow users to view their sites by going to:
http://serverIP/~username/
Some hosts may disable this function in order to prevent unmonitored bandwidth abuse, but many hosts allow it. Most of you probably already know all this stuff, including BigBison, so don't think I'm insulting intelligence...just providing a hint for some of the newbies.
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06-23-2004, 01:42 AM #11rogue element
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Originally posted by integrityhost
In regards to your point about viewing site by IP...most hosts use name-based hosting which is basically the industry standard due to ARIN regulations for IP distribution. Due to this, you can't preview your site by simply going to the IP you uploaded to because it's a shared IP.Eric J. Bowman, principal
Bison Systems Corporation coming soon: a new sig!
I'm just a poor, unfrozen caveman Webmaster. Your new 'standards' frighten, and confuse me...
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06-23-2004, 02:03 AM #12Disabled
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I would always suggest you register your own domain name this way you know the name servers have been changed and the domain has been ordered. Good luck understand your frustration
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06-23-2004, 02:17 AM #13rogue element
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Good point Sandee. However, I've noticed many automated setup scripts assume I'll be registering a domain name, and leave no other option. If a company doesn't have telephone sales reps, I just come up with a domain name that isn't really important to me but just might come in handy someday maybe.
Otherwise, a week would never pass without the registration because yes, I do that my way. My critical domain names are all hosted on UltraDNS and registrared(?) with an old friend.
Except osteoporosis.org, which I purchased some weeks ago and IS BEING HELD HOSTAGE BY VERIO... but that's a topic for another thread, and just freakin' typical, ya know?Eric J. Bowman, principal
Bison Systems Corporation coming soon: a new sig!
I'm just a poor, unfrozen caveman Webmaster. Your new 'standards' frighten, and confuse me...
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06-23-2004, 02:20 AM #14Disabled
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That is why I do not like auto signups as to many problems. We verify all info and set the account up manually so as there is no mistakes. I tried the automatic account setup and way to many problems with fraud,spammers and the domains setup on the wrong server.
I read these forums every day and it amazes me of some of the stories you see here. There are a lot of hosting companies who participate on these forums who are excellent hosts but you have a lot of new startups that are only interested in one thing. How much of your money they can put in your pocket before they close up shop. I don't know how they seem to get away with it but they do.Last edited by colorteck; 06-23-2004 at 02:23 AM.
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06-23-2004, 02:31 AM #15rogue element
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Yup. The scammer who contributed greatly to putting my first Internet venture OOB 4 yrs ago was Screaming Internet, which was also access4cheap and a slew of other discount ISPs and webhosting providers. Never even got mentioned here! The perpetrator has apparently been run out of a couple of other states, since packing up his servers and leaving CO last October. Never pays suppliers, only bills upfront for a year, and somehow manages to keep billing people's cards until they cancel the card, you'd think he'd be unable to get a merchant account but you'd be wrong. No, he's not Shang.
Did I mention whitelisting customers' email addresses? If a mistake does occur during signup, and then the support email doesn't go through, you've got a legitimately upset customer. This one is so obvious, I think I'll mention it several dozen more times this week.Last edited by BigBison; 06-23-2004 at 02:37 AM.
Eric J. Bowman, principal
Bison Systems Corporation coming soon: a new sig!
I'm just a poor, unfrozen caveman Webmaster. Your new 'standards' frighten, and confuse me...
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06-23-2004, 02:40 AM #16Predatory Poster
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Out of sight and out of mind. If people aren't talking bad about you ,then it is a good thing.
Patron: I'd like my free lunch please.
Cafe Manager: Free lunch? Did you read the fine print stating it was an April Fool's joke.
Patron: I read the same way I listen, I ignore the parts I don't agree with. I'm suing you for false advertising.
Cafe Owner: Is our lawyer still working pro bono?
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06-23-2004, 02:43 AM #17rogue element
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Originally posted by pixel_fenix
Out of sight and out of mind. If people aren't talking bad about you ,then it is a good thing.Eric J. Bowman, principal
Bison Systems Corporation coming soon: a new sig!
I'm just a poor, unfrozen caveman Webmaster. Your new 'standards' frighten, and confuse me...
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06-23-2004, 02:47 AM #18Registered User
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seraphex are pretty good. top job guys!
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06-23-2004, 09:07 AM #19Web Hosting Master
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One thing to consider with MB is that you can create custom letters to customers. With each domain order or transfer we send an additional letter to the customers informing them how the Domain registration works. It lets them know that it may take up to 72 hours, though it doesn't these days, for the domain to show up throughout the Internet.
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06-23-2004, 09:49 AM #20Web Hosting Master
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Originally posted by BigBison
Annette, you make some excellent points but you've missed my point here. I'm talking about receiving a welcome letter that says my domain is good to go, when in fact it hadn't even been registered. Two outfits did this. I'm saying, don't let me do a whois a week later and find the domain available to anybody.
Scenario 1: User signs up at a host, also orders a domreg, pays, receives their payment notice, receives a welcome email. They use the information in that welcome email to upload their site, log in to their control panel to create POPs, add databases, whatever. When the domain is active, presto, the site is ready to go, probably with some minor tweaks. Happiness all around.
Scenario 2: User signs up at a host, also orders a domreg, pays, receives their payment notice, receives no welcome email. They wait. Wait some more. 24 hours later, still no welcome email. If they found that host via WHT, 99% of them will run right back to WHT and post a message about how Hostx stinks because they paid and still have nothing from the host.
The same applies for DNS changes: what if the user wants to test things or get everything in place before propagation? What if they deliberately hold on changing the nameservers while some other consideration is being handled? I can't think of a single good reason not to send a welcome email to a client, whether a new domreg or existing. I can think of all sorts of reasons why not sending one would be bad for the client and for the host.
...
Many hosts give a raw IP address, or one of their named hosts for FTP transfer. If I upload a file there, and then browse that IP address I was sent, I want to see my page. I'm not looking at the domain name, though, just an apparently misconfigured IP address.
I'm in complete agreement with you that details are important, and I've said so often in public and private - not just how it relates to hosting: yesterday's lunch was served up by a waiter who couldn't get half of a two-person order correct. Disappointing.
Except osteoporosis.org, which I purchased some weeks ago and IS BEING HELD HOSTAGE BY VERIO... but that's a topic for another thread, and just freakin' typical, ya know?Last edited by Annette; 06-23-2004 at 09:52 AM.
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06-23-2004, 11:51 AM #21Retired Moderator
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On the unlimited thing I can tell you this: Just because something happens, doesn't really make it right. I mean, why not say it's UNLIMITED and FREE and then define "free" in the small print as being "very cheap".
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06-23-2004, 12:55 PM #22Disabled
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Originally posted by ldcdc
define "free" in the small print as being "very cheap".
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06-23-2004, 03:18 PM #23rogue element
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Annette, if I agree you're not missing my point, then I must say you're making some false assumptions.
I'm well aware that _if_ there's a domain registration involved, there are TWO letters, one saying the account is activated and the next saying the domain registration is done. I don't want to post the particular letters in question as that would not be fair to those hosts. But I think in general, you need to re-read what I've said with an open mind. I never meant to imply I was even using shared IPs on name-based hosting, let alone that I was having trouble with that.
Also, your arguments against all hosts who offer 'unlimited' hosting are invalid, IMHO. By your logic, since I've been burned by a host who offered 10MB storage / 10GB transfers, that all hosts offering this service level at a competitive price are to be avoided.
The term is 'caveat emptor' and this is the law in the U.S. Most of the complaints about 'limits' placed on 'unlimited' accounts, to me look more like efforts to define 'webhosting' by excluding usages such as data backup.
Verio is the overall registrar for the .org TLD. When I finally got through to an employee of Verio, not someone in India, I was informed they have about 4 people assigned to this. I can't seem to get action because they're still on FEBRUARY!!! Apparently, all registrars who offer .org are to be avoided as well, because they can't possibly guarantee having any control over Verio's timetable on domain transfers (or even registrations) and could be blamed for fraudulent advertising.Eric J. Bowman, principal
Bison Systems Corporation coming soon: a new sig!
I'm just a poor, unfrozen caveman Webmaster. Your new 'standards' frighten, and confuse me...
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06-23-2004, 03:53 PM #24Web Hosting Master
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Originally posted by BigBison
Annette, if I agree you're not missing my point, then I must say you're making some false assumptions.
I'm well aware that _if_ there's a domain registration involved, there are TWO letters, one saying the account is activated and the next saying the domain registration is done.
I don't want to post the particular letters in question as that would not be fair to those hosts. But I think in general, you need to re-read what I've said with an open mind. I never meant to imply I was even using shared IPs on name-based hosting, let alone that I was having trouble with that.
Also, your arguments against all hosts who offer 'unlimited' hosting are invalid, IMHO. By your logic, since I've been burned by a host who offered 10MB storage / 10GB transfers, that all hosts offering this service level at a competitive price are to be avoided.
The term is 'caveat emptor' and this is the law in the U.S. Most of the complaints about 'limits' placed on 'unlimited' accounts, to me look more like efforts to define 'webhosting' by excluding usages such as data backup.
Verio is the overall registrar for the .org TLD.
When I finally got through to an employee of Verio, not someone in India, I was informed they have about 4 people assigned to this. I can't seem to get action because they're still on FEBRUARY!!!
Apparently, all registrars who offer .org are to be avoided as well, because they can't possibly guarantee having any control over Verio's timetable on domain transfers (or even registrations) and could be blamed for fraudulent advertising.Last edited by Annette; 06-23-2004 at 04:08 PM.
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06-23-2004, 03:53 PM #25Web Hosting Master
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Verio is only a registrar and has nothing to do with a transfer unless they are purposefully holding it up. If there is no reason for them to be holding it up contact the PIR.ORG and speak with them as they control the .org TLD. Using the key system we have transfered multiple domains and done so in a matter of days without problems.
And PIR.ORG owns the .org TLD, not verio no matter what they say.
As for Unlimited, I agree with Annette. It is decieving advertsing.