Results 1 to 38 of 38
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Posts
    35

    * 50 Gb bandwitdth for 7.45 $ policy - How they manage

    Hi,
    I see many companies ipowerweb,******,micfo .....are providing 40 to 50 Gb band width for 6 to 10 $ per month...

    These are big companies so they can manage .....

    But... these days we can purchase a reseller hosting like this....for 50 $ u get 100 GB space and 100 Gb bw........i mean these guys buy dedicated server and i think they just are trying to resell to 10 customers needin resellein hosting....

    I just wanna know whats the profit margin one should keep in mind.....are they just making 3 times or 4 times more than the rent they pay per month for the server...

    Thanks n just wanna know u r input....

    Have a great time n good luck in u r business

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Goleta, CA
    Posts
    5,550
    Standard overselling strategy. When it's done right it works great but more often than not it's done poorly and fails miserably. I prefer not to mess with it as it takes a lot of skill and discipline to balance an overselling strategy. If you can make it work than more power to you.
    Patron: I'd like my free lunch please.
    Cafe Manager: Free lunch? Did you read the fine print stating it was an April Fool's joke.
    Patron: I read the same way I listen, I ignore the parts I don't agree with. I'm suing you for false advertising.
    Cafe Owner: Is our lawyer still working pro bono?

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Los Angeles
    Posts
    559
    Originally posted by pixel_fenix
    Standard overselling strategy.
    it's standard because it works.

    if everyone who has money deposited in your bank went to withdraw it tomorrow morning, your bank would fail.

    half the businesses in the world "oversell" in one way or another. i see the word "overselling" thrown around on here a lot as if it is a dirty word, but that is small-fry thinking.

    if it doesn't make sense to run a bank with enough cash on hand to satisfy the absolute maximum demand, why would you presume that it makes sense for your hosting business?

    if you offer 250mb of space, but see that the average used is consistently 100mb, you're throwing money away making that extra 150mb available to everyone. that doesn't mean you leave too small an overhead - the point is not to have unnecessarily large overhead.
    datapimp - You only get one soul, ya dig?

  4. #4
    Originally posted by datapimp.com
    it's standard because it works.

    if everyone who has money deposited in your bank went to withdraw it tomorrow morning, your bank would fail.

    half the businesses in the world "oversell" in one way or another. i see the word "overselling" thrown around on here a lot as if it is a dirty word, but that is small-fry thinking.

    if it doesn't make sense to run a bank with enough cash on hand to satisfy the absolute maximum demand, why would you presume that it makes sense for your hosting business?

    if you offer 250mb of space, but see that the average used is consistently 100mb, you're throwing money away making that extra 150mb available to everyone. that doesn't mean you leave too small an overhead - the point is not to have unnecessarily large overhead.
    As soon as the FDIC begins insuring hosting clients for $100,000 per account I'll buy in to your bank analogy logic.

    Until that time arrives, overselling is nothing more than taking money from someone for a service you already sold to someone else generally resulting in people crammed onto overcrowded, overtaxed servers. This ultimately leads to account suspensions for folks using the same amount of resources they would have otherwise been fine using if the server was not oversold.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Posts
    309
    In my experience, 98% of the clients use less than a 1 GB transfer per month and less than 100MB of space.

    Even if you offer 100 GB, these customers won't use more than 1 GB. Of course if you start to oversell huge, you might attract different type of customers using much more resources.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Location
    San Diego
    Posts
    3,407
    Pretty soon this will be all irrelevant and those who started this massive overselling trend will be competing against the bigger boys offering unlimited space (restricted by linked files - no file backup dumps) and unlimited bandwidth (limited by resource abuse - which these 50 GBs/mo guys do anyway). After this is done, space and bandwidth will be flat fee and the battle will be with ad dollars and name brand won by great service and support. Not some pissing match to see who can oversell the most space and bandwidth to differentiate.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    East Coast
    Posts
    2,063
    Offering most people more than 1 gb is just asking for trouble.

    Unless it's a reseller plan they more than likely want to put non legal content in their webspace. Now I don't believe in snooping on customers content (I am not the website police) but why offer an account that will be used for non legal purposes 90% of the time.

    I'm happy with the customer that wants 500MB. They get to host a large site and they don't store non web related files on my servers.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Posts
    35
    Thanks a lot guys for the discussion....It seems its much safer and better to sell what actually the user needs......

    I was just wondering how the rest of the hosting companies still manage to get custmers when they have these Big companeis offering more for less...May be the users dint liked it too....

    As one said...what matters is the support

    Have a great time & Business.....

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Los Angeles
    Posts
    559
    Originally posted by Watcher_TVI
    As soon as the FDIC begins insuring hosting clients for $100,000 per account I'll buy in to your bank analogy logic.
    the logic of the analogy is sound. pointing out that bank accounts are insured has nothing to do with the amount of cash a bank has on hand.

    Until that time arrives, overselling is nothing more than taking money from someone for a service you already sold to someone else generally resulting in people crammed onto overcrowded, overtaxed servers. This ultimately leads to account suspensions for folks using the same amount of resources they would have otherwise been fine using if the server was not oversold.
    there is not necessarily any correlation between providing a smaller overhead and "overcrowded, overtaxed servers." that is a specious argument. you could have a terabyte of available space on a netapp and be "overselling" storage.

    as for account suspensions, either you have a resource abuse policy in place or you don't. if you do, and a user exceeds those limits, they are shut down. that is an issue completely removed from how "taxed" or "crowded" your servers may be.

    but maybe we're talking about different things here. i'm assuming a system where the web servers and file storage are separated. if you're talking about some little cobalt somewhere running web, ftp, mysql and mail on the same box, that's a different bag of fish.
    datapimp - You only get one soul, ya dig?

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by datapimp.com
    the logic of the analogy is sound. pointing out that bank accounts are insured has nothing to do with the amount of cash a bank has on hand.
    We'll have to disagree on this. The FDIC insures deposits so if for some reason the bank cannot provide your cash, the Government will. Not to even mention all the Federal regulations dictating exactly how a bank must conduct business. You tell me how that is a relevant comparison for web hosting when the web hosting industry isn't even regulated let alone insured.

    as for account suspensions, either you have a resource abuse policy in place or you don't
    If you could show me a couple examples where these overselling hosts have a clearly defined amount of resources listed I could buy this statement. The fact of the matter is that I have never seen any host define the amount of resources allocated. Most use ambiguous terms such as "excessive" or "abuse". People buy their 50 gigs of transfer and then can't figure out why the only way they can actually use that transfer is with some static page or straight download. It certainly doesn't apply for most of the dynamic PHP/MySQL sites that are so popular today. Try pushing 50 gigs of transfer with forum software on a shared environment with an overselling host and see what happens.

    It also doesn't matter if the web servers and file storage systems are on separate boxes or not, the same systems can be oversold just as easily.

    I think UmBillyCord is exactly right. Pretty soon the standards will be resource usage and not bandwidth. Software such as VPS will become standard for shared hosting platforms with specific RAM and Resource allocations. That at least would give the consumer something solid to hang there hat on instead of the all too infamous "Your site has been suspended for excessive resource usage" account terminations that are running rampid. This ludicrous level of overselling going on today only hurts the industry and takes advantage of the consumers.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Los Angeles
    Posts
    559
    Originally posted by Watcher_TVI
    This ludicrous level of overselling going on today only hurts the industry and takes advantage of the consumers.
    you're right. you're right about everything. good luck to you.
    datapimp - You only get one soul, ya dig?

  12. Next thing we get is overselling of resource usage. There is no end to this apparently.

    Originally posted by Watcher_TVI
    I think UmBillyCord is exactly right. Pretty soon the standards will be resource usage and not bandwidth. Software such as VPS will become standard for shared hosting platforms with specific RAM and Resource allocations.
    What you can do with Cpanel ------------------> |||||
    What you can do with Cpanel XP+CpanelAPP -------> ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||

    Your competitors are cashing in with Cpanel XP & CpanelAPP, are you?

  13. #13
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    156
    I do not understand why you are so anti overselling.

    Why don't you ring up your airline and shout at them next time they offer you free first-class due to overselling the flight.

    The bank analogy is perfectly sound and takes place. The only place where your money is guaranteed is if a) it is ensured by an organisation that does not oversell or b) its protected by assets such as gold bullions. It is how the world operates.

    Speculation is something I do not believe in (especially currency speculation). Support the Tobin tax!
    ----
    Aaron Ferguson - Administrator
    DroveNet Services - www.drovenet.com
    ----

  14. #14
    There have been more than enough overselling threads and they all say pretty much the same thing, my opinion of the practice hasn't changed, I think it's flat out wrong.

    As of today both the Airlines and Banking Industries are regulated by the Government and backed by Federal Insurance, Web Hosting is not. Even Taxi Cabs are regulated as to how many people they can carry and how much they are permitted to charge.

    Web hosting is completely unregulated with no set of guidelines or published standards in place to protect the consumer. Comparing the Hosting Industry to any other industry that is regulated by the Government and backed by Federal insurance is an extremely faulty comparison. Like comparing the lemonade stand on the neighborhood corner to the Coca Cola company...

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Location
    .INdiana
    Posts
    2,451
    Watcher_TVI, are your reseller customers allowed to oversell?

  16. #16
    No they are not...

  17. #17
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    156
    There is nothing wrong with comparing the neighbourhood lemonade stand to the coca-cola company. Both offer a similar product and both are requried to follow certain practices regarding the production and service of their product. This is the problem with these anologies - they can be viewed in two lights. Essentially, however, the two entities have to ensure that their business model works whilst following the legislation in place.

    Web hosting is not regulated due to the nature of the internet. However there are guidelines in place to provide a 'code of practice'. These are provided by the Internet Society (ISOC) and the Internet Service Providers Association (ISPA). Certainly a UK bank will ask an internet business to at least look over these before providing financial facilities - I know HSBC suggests this.

    Overselling is a basic economical concept which has been in use for decades and supports business. Maybe on a smaller level (with regards to resellers) overselling should be controlled/discouraged but certainly on a corporate level it should be permitted.

    I also do not see how you can take such a strong stance over a process which, if used properly, can promote the growth of business and happy clients. Of course if abused or followed incorrectly it will cause problems - but so will loans & overdrafts. Overselling, like loans, can provide a larger cashflow into the business and if, managed properly, can be supported whilst keeping clients pleased. It is unfortunate that you have to rely on a regulatory body before supporting something.

    Just for the record, currently we do not engage in overselling due to the nature of our cashflow forecasts etc.
    ----
    Aaron Ferguson - Administrator
    DroveNet Services - www.drovenet.com
    ----

  18. #18
    I don't know what the procedure is where you live but in the US the kids start up lemonade stands with out the tiniest bit of "legislation" or in many cases even supervision. No rules, no Board of Health, it's buyer beware when you take a drink and hope the kids didn't use their mud bucket to mix the stuff in.

    Just like web hosting, it's buyer beware and hope the people you purchase services from aren't selling you an account on their desktop connected to the Internet on a cable line in their basement, or on some $50.00 server at a substandard facility.

    You may very well think overselling is a great concept for business, it's been my experience and observations that it does not provide such great results for consumers when it comes to web hosting.

    What is curious to me is that if you think it's such a positive concept for business, why would you not observe the practice yourself? In fact, why would you make it a point to state that you do not observe the practice?

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Fairfax, Virginia
    Posts
    6,835
    I don't know what the procedure is where you live but in the US the kids start up lemonade stands with out the tiniest bit of "legislation" or in many cases even supervision. No rules, no Board of Health, it's buyer beware when you take a drink and hope the kids didn't use their mud bucket to mix the stuff in.
    That reminds me... once I bought a cup of 'milkshake' around the corner near my community pool from two five-year-old girls. It looked extremely nasty, but I had bought a cup previously afternoon and it was very good (chocolate). So I trusted them. I tried it, and I realized they had played a joke. When they told me what they had put in it, I almost gagged; pieces of chicken leg, egg yolks, half a bottle of vanilla extract, crackers, and a lot of other nasty stuff.

    Note that this really *did* happen.

    This is what makes the hosting industry so exciting... new companies all the time, inventing new ideas and introducing new special, "one-month" offers that typically last for a year if not longer, more well-known companies offering new services that just can't seem to catch their customer niche, and even older companies literally failing and shutting down operations.

    That was my point with this example, and this is why I think the hosting industry is so exciting.

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    1,769
    Originally posted by Watcher_TVI

    What is curious to me is that if you think it's such a positive concept for business, why would you not observe the practice yourself? In fact, why would you make it a point to state that you do not observe the practice?
    A good point in an already interesting debate.

    Hmmm..... .....

  21. #21
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Norfolk
    Posts
    32
    Originally posted by keepr
    Unless it's a reseller plan they more than likely want to put non legal content in their webspace.
    That's complete rubbish.

  22. Well I am not totally against overselling though.
    Banks oversell too! I mean for every $100 they have they are allowed to loan out $1000 .
    What you can do with Cpanel ------------------> |||||
    What you can do with Cpanel XP+CpanelAPP -------> ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||

    Your competitors are cashing in with Cpanel XP & CpanelAPP, are you?

  23. #23
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    156
    We made the statement because of the nature of this debate we wanted to ensure that no clients left with the wrong ideas.

    We have no need to oversell due to our current financial situation. Some people do not need to loan money - but that doesn't mean that they discourage the process.

    Unfortunately re: the child you are wrong. If the child decides to try and kill you with the lemonade, they are liable. Plus there's the fact of trading on a street, which in many places is illegal without a licence.

    Within the UK anybody who sells food and drink must sell it in the same package they receive it. If they do not, they are required to produce it under legal conditions regarding hygiene. I would bet a lot of money that the law is setup the same in the US.

    Just because it seems like a nice idea and that they are kids and that nobody you've heard of has been done doesn't mean it is not the case. Technically, they should not be producing their own lemonade and should not be selling it in the conditions that they are. Sure, no court is going to prosecute a child for doing it - but the legislation does not make exceptions. If a child decides to mix it in a mud bucket, and gives you tetanus whilst doing it, off they go to get fined - and if its not them then its their parents who, as those with legal responsibility, should've ensured it didnt happen. To be fair I think that view is a rather mis-guided, old-fashioned view on the way legislation is setup.

    It is, of course nowhere near 'buyer beware'. If you choose to pick a small company that does not advertise a telephone number and that takes 48 hours to name their operating system then that is your problem. Just as if you choose to have an abortion done in a back alley rather than in a hospital. If you're choosing a hosting company, a few simple checks like calling their telephone number, some support requests and a talk with other clients will provide you a good idea of their size and structure - I'm quite sure that providers such as dinix.com are not running off a desktop ISP connection and I didn't need to do much to confirm.
    ----
    Aaron Ferguson - Administrator
    DroveNet Services - www.drovenet.com
    ----

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by DroveNet
    We made the statement because of the nature of this debate we wanted to ensure that no clients left with the wrong ideas.
    So you agree that overselling is a bad concept. If it were a good concept indicating smart business as you claimed earlier, then you would be the first to state that it is a practice you observe correct?

    You've made my point for me...

    As for the child and the lemonade analogy, well the kids in the US do it all the time with no licenses, permits, Board of Health inspections or anything else but that isn't the point here. Your Legislation may not make exceptions but in the US there most certainly are exceptions. However that's a topic for the Lounge...

    It is, of course nowhere near 'buyer beware'.
    I am quite certain that is not the case. In fact a search at WHT returns some 242 threads containing the phrase Buyer Beware. I am also certain there are plenty of people who have been ripped off, taken advantage of, lost their files, and experienced all manner of other hardships because they were not exercising that "Buyer Beware" approach.

  25. #25
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    156
    Unfortunately, there have been lots of people ripped off buying cars, paying gardeners and attempting to use an airline - it is not something unique to the hosting industry. According to your definition of the phrase, you should be buyer aware everywhere. I would call it common sense.

    I made the comment to ensure that potential clients such as yourselves did not decide we were a poor company. I agree it is a good concept, just don't take part in it because I do not need to and I don't want those that are against it specifically not making use of my company on that belief.

    With regards to the child selling analogy: it was in fact the US that started the "lets sue everybody" culture and I'm sure if you study your legislation it will cause similar problems. Rememeber I am not concerned with the implementation of the legislation - just whether or not the legislation covers them.
    Last edited by DroveNet; 06-04-2004 at 08:52 PM.
    ----
    Aaron Ferguson - Administrator
    DroveNet Services - www.drovenet.com
    ----

  26. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by DroveNet
    According to your definition of the phrase, you should be buyer aware everywhere. I would call it common sense.
    With all the examples you mention there is recourse for consumers in the US. You have to be licensed to sell cars, the Federal Government regulates the airlines and even the gardeners need a business license. Web hosts need no licenses to operate, thus there is very little recourse for the average consumer.

    Quote Originally Posted by DroveNet
    I made the comment to ensure that potential clients such as yourselves did not decide we were a poor company. I agree it is a good concept,
    So you didn't want anyone to think you are a poor company so you made sure you stated you do not practice overselling, yet you think it is a good concept?

    I just don't follow that logic at all...

  27. #27
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    1,769
    I think he meant poor, as in 'financially poor', not poor as in 'bad'. Please continue.... ....

  28. #28
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    204
    Originally posted by [email protected]
    Well I am not totally against overselling though.
    Banks oversell too! I mean for every $100 they have they are allowed to loan out $1000 .
    While my opinion of overselling isn't quite as strong as watcher's, I don't really like the bank analogy. The whole FDIC insured and regulation w/ banks makes a huge difference. They will not let a bank fail if it's headed that way, they step in and will buy it out if they have to in order to insure everyone gets their money.

    And that is why most people are comfortable w/ the fact their money is in a bank these days. Hosting on the otherhand.. you don't have that. If everyone taxed out their "1gb/100GB transfer" plans on an oversold server.. things go to hell. And generally, it's usually a third rate company trying to play the $1 host game. So you know they won't be able to handle the issue when it arrises.

  29. #29
    Originally posted by Gen-T
    I think he meant poor, as in 'financially poor', not poor as in 'bad'. Please continue.... ....
    Even if that were the case, is that not making the statement that overselling makes more money? If it does and it is a good positive concept as he already stated, then why would he not want to increase the profit margins by utilizing overselling?

    No matter how this gets spun, it looks like DroveNet doesn't want to be considered an overselling host, yet he insists that overselling is a positive practice.

    Sounds like a Politician running for re-election to me...

  30. #30
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    1,769
    Originally posted by Watcher_TVI

    Sounds like a Politician running for re-election to me...
    It does have a certain spin to it, I must admit.

  31. #31
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Los Angeles
    Posts
    559
    Originally posted by Watcher_TVI
    I just don't follow that logic at all...
    oy, this is tedious. i think you could take the word "that" out of that sentence, and you'd be close to the truth.

    the bank analogy has nothing to do with insurance in the case of catastrophic failure and everything to do with day to day operations, and what is required to keep the bank customers happy. the typical bank customer just wants $100 to be in the atm when he walks up to it on a friday night, and the average web hosting customer doesn't use as much space as they are allotted. that is a fact. so allotting 500mb of space to every one of your users when they consistently use 50mb is bad business, and quite frankly, extremely stupid.

    if you could get the usage statistics of the world's largest hosts you would not find any one of them with enough storage space on hand to satisfy the demand if every one of their clients suddenly decided to use all the space they could.

    that's why i said way-back-when in this thread that the "overselling" phobia is a byproduct of a small-time mentality.

    and again you could have thousands of gigabytes of available space and still technically be "overselling." how would that be detrimental to your clients? it would not be.

    this is not a theoretical construct, it's how web hosting companies in the real world do business. it isn't something for you to agree or disagree with, it's just a fact.

  32. #32
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    156
    The point is there is recourse for consumers of webhosting as well. You have legal recourse for anything you purchase that is faulty thanks to your stauatory rights. Remember when those adverts say "this does not affect your stauatory rights". If you have chosen a host that can be tracked down, and they have provided a poor service, then you may take them to court, its quite simple. The Federal regulation that comes in is just extra protection for consumers to try and encourage economic growth - the thoughts behind them were not to protect consumers but to promote the economic growth of, say, the motorcar industry and to increase the public's confidence.

    To say that there is little recourse is a slightly mis-led statement. The trick is to choose a well-known, reputable host and then if something goes wrong you can see them in the courtroom. And if you cannot afford legal action, (in the UK) visit your local Citizen's Advice Burearu and you may be entitled to legal aid.

    For the last time I will explain this - just because I do not take part in overselling does not mean that I do not support it. Overselling makes more money if you a) need the money and b) have enough clients to oversell - currently we do not.

    I made the statement (for the final time) to ensure that potential clients who did feel against it did not not make use of our company (sorry that was confusing, but I've only just got up after two hours sleep...) on the belief that we did oversell. Some clients, I will agree, do not condone the process - one would be yourself. I wanted to ensure that people such as you did not feel we were some sort of pioneer for overselling, we are not. We do not discourage it, but do not have the need to take part in it and thus do not want to risk our repuation WITH SOME PEOPLE in return for pioneerring it.

    Back to the loan analogy - some people do not take out loans because they do not need to - this doesn't mean that they do not discourage it, just that they do not need to. And then some people would go further, and feel it neccessary to declare that they are secured by, for example gold bullions, to attempt to secure the entire market. This doesn't mean that they despise those that do take out loans and rely on liquid funds.


    <makes a whipping sound and movement with his hand, whilst donning a rather large grin>
    Last edited by DroveNet; 06-05-2004 at 07:56 AM.
    ----
    Aaron Ferguson - Administrator
    DroveNet Services - www.drovenet.com
    ----

  33. #33
    The only statement that you have made that I agree with is that this has become tedious.

    You claim that you don't want people to think you oversell because some people may not like it. Why don't you think they like it? Perhaps because they have been a victim of an overselling host in the past? Perhaps because they agree that it is not a good practice? You support overselling on one hand, yet are afraid to implement the practice out of concern for what people may think?

    That is a scary way to conduct business....

    this is not a theoretical construct, it's how web hosting companies in the real world do business. it isn't something for you to agree or disagree with, it's just a fact.
    You're flat out wrong with this one. It is not a fact, it's simply one method of conducting a web hosting business that some people observe, despite the spin factor you placed on it. If it were a fact, everyone would do it, that is simply not true. Not everyone feels that it is necessary to sell the same transfer and disc space allocations to multiple people to make a profit.

    In the real world there are some companies that think moral principals are as important (if not more so) than the profit margins. You may not choose to be in that minority, however we certainly do...

  34. #34
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    156
    Can I just make the final point that we are not afraid to implement the practice, just choose not to. We're not politicians and we feel no need to be spin doctors - this is not a fact up for neogotiation or debate, we simply want to try reach the entire market and prevent ourselves from alienating those who may be against it, for whatever reason - most probably due to repuation rather than careful consideration of the practice.

    We do not have a problem implementing it, for the final time in and nice bold caps WE DO NOT NEED TO. If you should feel the need, I am quite happy to obtain our cashflow forecast for the 12 months July 2004 --> July 2005 and show you how overselling is not required within our business model.

    We do, however, consider it slightly foolish to potentially alienate those who may be against the practice for whatever reason they choose.

    We, like you, do not feel that it is neccessary to sell the same transfer and disk space allocations to multiple people in order to make a profit. However, this does not mean that we do not encourage it.

    I do not feel the need to ride a motorcycle - however I am quite happy to let others do so. I would even advertise to some people that I do not ride a motorcycle in order, say, to decrease their worry regarding my health - as there are some that believe I might be more at risk riding a motorcycle.

    I also do not feel the need to smoke, but personally I do not discourage it. However, I do advertise the fact that I do not smoke in order, say, to obtain cheaper health insurance - this doesn't reflect my opinion on smoking which is not derogatory of the habit (indeed I only quit smoking to assist my physical training).

    I do not believe it is a scary way to conduct business. The bank are quite happy for me, for example, not to take out a loan and then advertise this to investors to try and raise capital - by advertising that I haven't taken a loan out I am not discouraging the process, I am simply demonstrating to those, in my opinion, narrow-minded people that would not invest in a company which has start-up debts.

    Overselling is a fact of the business world. If its a fact however, it doesn't mean that every business takes it on. If its a fact, not everyone would do it as people have different ways of doing things. You are right, not everyone feels it neccessary to oversell, but many people do and many succeed at doing so.

    I then make my point again that it is fine to oversell, at which point you say it isn't because you believe there is no recourse for those that are a victim of overselling.

    I would therefore conclude by saying, once again, that there is of course legal recourse for clients. Just because a 'regulatory commission' doesn't exist it doesn't mean that the courts suddenly ignore such cases. I think you need to reconsider why a civil court exists and why tort law was created.

    I think you need to stop being so aggressive with regards to those who are overselling and allow them to do so. It is not a crime and if controlled correctly will provide for a happy, successful business model. It is a concept introduced by economists and supported by economists whether or not regulatory commissions exist.

    I also feel you need to reconsider other company's moral standings. I would find it quite offensive for you to judge my moral standings based on whether or not I engage in a practice quite widely accepted throughout the business world. Furthermore, if you would like me to discuss our business practices and codes with you I am quite happy to do so.
    ----
    Aaron Ferguson - Administrator
    DroveNet Services - www.drovenet.com
    ----

  35. #35
    If I know something is bad, I certainly don't encourage other people to take up the practice, if it is good enough for me to recommend as a positive way to do business, then I would observe the practice myself. I am not one to use the "Do as I say, not as I do" method of suggestion.

    Quote Originally Posted by DroveNet
    I would find it quite offensive for you to judge my moral standings based on whether or not I engage in a practice quite widely accepted throughout the business world.
    How I choose to evaluate multi-faceted positions on an issue is up to me. It is after all my opinion, just as your posts are just that, your opinions. Stating a particular practice is a fact clearly doesn't make it so. If I think a particular practice is wrong and you're offended by my observations you certainly don't need to read my remarks any further. You know where I stand on the issue as does everyone else reading this thread, there is no spin or gray area in my opinion.

    That said, I think I've said everything I need to here. I'll have my leave of this thread at this point and leave you to ponder your own position(s)...

  36. #36
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    156
    Hmmm, certainly a lot to ponder.

    Especially whether or not opinions can be permitted to become offensive...
    ----
    Aaron Ferguson - Administrator
    DroveNet Services - www.drovenet.com
    ----

  37. #37
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Los Angeles
    Posts
    559
    Originally posted by Watcher_TVI
    In the real world there are some companies that think moral principals are as important (if not more so) than the profit margins. You may not choose to be in that minority, however we certainly do...
    oh goodness...my utterly hilarious (um hmm) fake bible quote post was deleted, so i'll just say this - there's nothing "immoral" about running a business efficiently.

    having gigabytes and gigabytes of unused space sitting in a user partition somewhere is not moral or immoral. it's just unused storage space.

    business 101: keep your inventory as low as you possibly can while still delivering the product on time. period.

  38. #38
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    156
    I think this individual needs to rethink his business startergies. Just a thought...
    ----
    Aaron Ferguson - Administrator
    DroveNet Services - www.drovenet.com
    ----

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •