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  1. #1
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    * Abu Hamza arrested

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/3752257.stm

    Verrrrrry Intttteresting.

    For those of you who don't know, we have been trying to deport this guy for years and it was estimated it could take 10 years to finish.

    This is one way around the problem, eh?

  2. #2
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    plenty good enough for the war mongerer, i hope he gets blown up like the people he gleefully rants about at finsbury park...................

  3. #3
    Someone should just shoot him already.
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  4. #4
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    About b****y time!

    We have the Americns to thank for this extradition order, they might hve their own reasons but we were making a right pigs ear of dealing with Hamza through the courts over here in Britain.

    Maybe they'd like to take Omar Bakri on a loan deal from us so to speak

    There's just been a news conference in the states, here is the most recent summary.

    Article extract >> SOURCE : SKY NEWS ONLINE

    NEW YORK (Reuters) - Muslim cleric Abu Hamza al-Masri, an open admirer of Osama bin Laden, has been indicted on hostage taking and other "terrorism charges" in an 11-count indictment in Manhattan federal court, officials say.

    Thursday's indictment, which was returned by a federal grand jury on April 19, charges Abu Hamza with hostage taking in connection with an attack in Yemen in December 1998 that resulted in the death of four hostages.

    Abu Hamza -- a hate figure for British tabloids, who has one eye and a steel hook in place of his right hand after being wounded fighting in Afghanistan -- was stripped of his UK nationality a year ago on allegations he supported terrorism.

    Arrested at his London home on Thursday morning, he thus became the first person to have his British citizenship revoked after new measures were brought in last year to deport immigrants whose words or actions are deemed to "seriously prejudice" British interests.

    Last month, he won nine more months to appeal against the decision. He denies any formal links to al Qaeda.

    LEGAL QUAGMIRE?

    "We arrested a 47-year-old man at about three o'clock this morning," a police spokeswoman said of the operation at his London home. Abu Hamza is to appear at a high-security London court later on Thursday.

    Asked why he had not been arrested by Britain, the Crown Prosecution Service said that effectively the Americans had got there first.

    "The position as of yesterday is that we were considering some material that the police had sent to us and were looking to see if there were grounds on which charges could have been brought," a spokeswoman said.

    Geoff Gilbert, professor of law at the University of Essex, eastern England, told Reuters there could be a long legal argument if Abu Hamza challenges the extradition request.

    "If he wants to challenge it, I would say it would take somewhere between nine months and two years," he told Reuters. If Britain also prosecutes, this would sink the case even further into a legal quagmire, he added.

    British officials could not immediately clarify whether the U.S. or UK allegations against him would take precedence.

    Yemen, where Abu Hamza's son has served time in prison on terrorism charges, has also long sought his extradition.

    "We have evidence he has been involved in terrorist attacks that took place in Yemen in 1998," the country's Foreign Minister Abubakr al-Qirbi told BBC radio.

    After moving to Britain years ago and working as a doorman at London discos, Abu Hamza went to Afghanistan in the 1980s to help the Mujahideen fight Soviet occupation troops.

    He lost both his forearms and an eye to an explosive device in that conflict. In the 1990s, he returned to the United Kingdom to preach radical Islam in London mosques.

    He was shut out of his north London Finsbury Park mosque when it was raided by anti-terrorism police in January 2003 but simply switched to preaching on the street outside.

    End extract <<

    Full article, no link.

    Critic,
    Last edited by Critic; 05-27-2004 at 10:38 AM.
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  5. #5
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    Originally posted by pmoduk2
    Someone should just shoot him already.
    and bush/tony never did anything wrong huh?

  6. #6
    Please, don't get me started. All terrorists deserve to die, that's my opinion.


    EDIT: And in answer to your question, the only thing they've done wrong in my eyes is lie, and I fully support the war in Iraq and on terrorism.
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  7. #7
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    deport immigrants whose words or actions are deemed to "seriously prejudice" British interests.
    that's just outragous.

    Nice example how we in Europe don't have freedom of speech.

    Those other charges (that don't have anything to do with preaching , his opinions etc) can be investigated and he can be tried of that, but any charge relating to his opinion is ridiculous imo.

    Originally posted by pmoduk2
    Please, don't get me started. All terrorists deserve to die, that's my opinion.
    That's also Hamza's opinion. You just both differ on who are the "terrorists".
    In my opinion you are both wrong
    Last edited by Eric Cartman; 05-27-2004 at 11:49 AM.

  8. #8
    Originally posted by pmoduk2
    Please, don't get me started. All terrorists deserve to die, that's my opinion.


    EDIT: And in answer to your question, the only thing they've done wrong in my eyes is lie, and I fully support the war in Iraq and on terrorism.
    Who exactly are terrorists? Anyone the US wants to call? Anyone who rises against the US? Anyone who picks up arms after his family has suffered generations of torture?

    Think about it. I completely agree with you that terrorists "deserve to die," however I dont see much thought about who exactly is a genuine terrorist and who has been transformed into one due to reasons beyond their control.

  9. #9
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    Originally posted by Eric Cartman
    that's just outragous.

    Nice example how we in Europe don't have freedom of speech.

    Those other charges (that don't have anything to do with preaching , his opinions etc) can be investigated and he can be tried of that, but any charge relating to his opinion is ridiculous imo.
    What's so outrageous about that?

    We don't have freedom of speech in Europe? HA, talk about sweeping generalisations, that's a bit OTT isn't it?

    No charges related to his opinions eh? What if thsoe "opinions" could be classififed under the law as an incitement to murder or to commit racial or terrorist attacks against people or property?

    _______________

    - Update

    Abu Hamza has been remanded in custody until his next court appearance, bail refused.

    Critic,
    The 9 words of life quote -
    "Act with honour, seek justice, die true, remembered well."
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  10. #10
    Originally posted by Critic
    What's so outrageous about that?

    We don't have freedom of speech in Europe? HA, talk about sweeping generalisations, that's a bit OTT isn't it?

    No charges related to his opinions eh? What if thsoe "opinions" could be classififed under the law as an incitement to murder or to commit racial or terrorist attacks against people or property?

    _______________

    - Update

    Abu Hamza has been remanded in custody until his next court appearance, bail refused.

    Critic,
    I agree with Critic here.

    This guy should have been off the streets long back, IMO. Being a Muslim, it hurts me to see idiots like Abu Hamza brainwash fellow completely sane followers of Islam.

    Good move.

    Now the question is how exactly he will be extradited to the US. From what I hear, any possible extradition is only possible provided US does not leave the death penalty open for him.

  11. #11
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    Glad to see this guy off the streets as well, it's definitely time.

    It burns me up to see people go back to free speech, it's a ridiculous argument. There is a big difference between free speech and commiting racial hatred and acts of terror. There are loads of ways to peacefully protest things if you don't agree with them. I don't exactly have respect for some people, but I don't go around calling for their deaths.

    Who exactly are terrorists? Anyone the US wants to call? Anyone who rises against the US? Anyone who picks up arms after his family has suffered generations of torture?

    Think about it. I completely agree with you that terrorists "deserve to die," however I dont see much thought about who exactly is a genuine terrorist and who has been transformed into one due to reasons beyond their control.
    First off, according to your argument here, we should let this guy go free and do what he pleases just because he's been 'transformed' into a terrorist? Is what we should do with all of those other criminals who have horrible childhoods...should we just put them back on the street? Stop and think for a second what you're saying here... a terrorist is a terrorist period.

    Now, back to your first part, a terrorist would be someone who preaches death a destruction of a country or who goes as far as carrying out an act of terrorism. Once again, wouldn't you want someone off the street because they were preaching hatred and death to you?

  12. #12
    First, to surpress any confusion, my point about terrorists above was not specific to the main guy we're talking about here. It was simply a general argument. If you read above, you can see I fully support taking crackpots like Mr. Hamza off the streets.

    Coming to your post:

    First off, according to your argument here, we should let this guy go free and do what he pleases just because he's been 'transformed' into a terrorist? Is what we should do with all of those other criminals who have horrible childhoods...should we just put them back on the street? Stop and think for a second what you're saying here... a terrorist is a terrorist period.
    As you'll see in most communities in general world where there is a problem of gangs or other issues, the plan usually is to attack the roots so that the main source where such troubled people leak out of is rectified. As for the people who are already a victim of this, they are often put in rehab facilities and a good effort is put to put them back into society.

    I feel the approach with dealing with a lot of people in the middle east should be similar. Simply ridding of the people who have already taken up arms and put their lives at risk will ONLY make the problem worse.

    Why? Imagine an 8-year old with a grandmother and grandfather being illegally kicked out, home bulldozed. The 8-year old's father has almost nothing further to loose and he picks up arms ready to kill anyone. That's called insanity. Was that person born that way? No. It was a result of something done to the father that made him develop such an attitude.

    Now picture someone like bin Laden who has long record of disliking for US and foreign influence. He's a rich ***, and for someone like bin Laden you can call him a terrorist because he has no basis whatsoever to remotely justify his hatred towards America.

    Where is the flaw in the current strategy to "fight terrorism"? The failure to make a distinction between those like bin Laden who simply hate America because it's America and between the 8-year old's father.

    Going further, the 8-year old's father would probably be killed and guess what....does that stop the chain in that family? HECK NO. The 8-year old and his siblings will continue where his father left off and there is all likelihood that they'll grow up with a DEEPER HATRED THAN HIS FATHER.

  13. #13
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    Originally posted by zaid2001

    Now the question is how exactly he will be extradited to the US. From what I hear, any possible extradition is only possible provided US does not leave the death penalty open for him.
    I am under the impression that the death penalty issue has already been agreed upon in private between the Home Office here in Britain and the necessary authorities in America.

    That arrangement being that they won't seek the death penalty in their prosecution, if convicted he'll probably end up getting some terminal jail sentence like 50-125 years or more without the chance of parole.

    However i do expect that his legal team will drag their feet on the extradition side of things on this end but once he's in the states it's up to them how they deal with things, the only snag that i can see is if the, more often than not [well it feels like it] annoying European Court for Human Rights decided to put a spanner in the works.

    Critic,
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  14. #14
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    Personally, I would like to think that we've all (British & Americans) already attained what we want in this case... He's off the streets, and it is liable to stay that way! He's in jail, with no bail. Hopefully, no matter how long this stays tied up in the courts, that fact will remain...
    You've got to accentuate the positive; Eliminate the negative
    Latch on to the affirmative; Don't mess with Mister In-Between

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  15. #15
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    So I was watching MSNBC this afternoon, and they were interviewing some "terrorism expert" or other about this, and about any evidence that directly connects Abu Hamza to acts of terrorism. And the guy said, speaking figuratively of course, something along the lines of "he hasn't left his fingerprints on anything like that..."

    Dude... the guy has no hands!


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  16. #16
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    He's got one hand and one hook. Personally, I think he'd be better off with no head.
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  17. #17
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    US indicts Muslim cleric for hostage-taking

    The United States on Thursday charged a radical Muslim cleric held in London with trying to set up an al Qaeda training camp in America and with hostage-taking, which could carry a death sentence.
    This is pretty freaky for American citizens. What do you think about this!!!

    Full Story: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/latestnews...bsection=world

  18. #18
    Originally posted by Critic
    What's so outrageous about that?

    We don't have freedom of speech in Europe? HA, talk about sweeping generalisations, that's a bit OTT isn't it?

    No charges related to his opinions eh? What if thsoe "opinions" could be classififed under the law as an incitement to murder or to commit racial or terrorist attacks against people or property?

    _______________

    - Update

    Abu Hamza has been remanded in custody until his next court appearance, bail refused.

    Critic,
    Agree with what you are saying. The enforcement of this is highly selective however depending on what those 'opinions' are. For example, there are PLENTY of nutcases here in the US advocating things such as: "we should invade ALL Muslim Countries, kill all their leaders and convert them to Christianity" --Ann Coulter. Wouldn't that be promoting acts of terrorism and inciting murder? Recently there was a radio personality (The name/location escapes me at the moment) who said that ALL Muslims in the US are 'secretly' enemies of the US and we should kill them all. This also obviously falls under the category of statement you mention Critic. However, despite the protests, this guy wasn't even taken off the air for statements like that much less prosecuted. Again there's an obvious double standard here. Apparently people can make such statements against Muslims and get away with it.

  19. #19
    Originally posted by speedy007h
    Agree with what you are saying. The enforcement of this is highly selective however depending on what those 'opinions' are. For example, there are PLENTY of nutcases here in the US advocating things such as: "we should invade ALL Muslim Countries, kill all their leaders and convert them to Christianity" --Ann Coulter. Wouldn't that be promoting acts of terrorism and inciting murder? Recently there was a radio personality (The name/location escapes me at the moment) who said that ALL Muslims in the US are 'secretly' enemies of the US and we should kill them all. This also obviously falls under the category of statement you mention Critic. However, despite the protests, this guy wasn't even taken off the air for statements like that much less prosecuted. Again there's an obvious double standard here. Apparently people can make such statements against Muslims and get away with it.
    I agree and I can see the double standard you are referring to.

    Yet, honestly I dont think this guy was doing anything good for ANYONE. Period. All he was doing was inciting unneeded anger among Muslims-- being a Muslim and seeing the current condition of Muslims worldwide, that is the last thing we need. I personally am of the belief that Muslims worldwide need to put down arms, go in a hiatus for few decades during which education needs to be the ONLY priority.

    In other words, do a Jihad, but through education, not through guns and bullets. That is entirely valid IMO and in today's day and time I see it being much more effective. Evidence of that is plenty. What have Muslims fighting for valid causes gotten from suicide bombing, random murders etc.? NOTHING...infact, by taking such lives, the opposing party gets a reason to kill innocent Muslims at a disproportioned ratio(hint hint Israel).

  20. #20
    Couldn't have said it better myself

  21. #21
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    Freedom Of Speech

    Still Exists
    Testing 1.. Testing 1..2.. Testing 1..2..3...

  22. #22
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    Originally posted by speedy007h
    Agree with what you are saying. The enforcement of this is highly selective however depending on what those 'opinions' are. For example, there are PLENTY of nutcases here in the US advocating things such as: "we should invade ALL Muslim Countries, kill all their leaders and convert them to Christianity" --Ann Coulter. Wouldn't that be promoting acts of terrorism and inciting murder? Recently there was a radio personality (The name/location escapes me at the moment) who said that ALL Muslims in the US are 'secretly' enemies of the US and we should kill them all. This also obviously falls under the category of statement you mention Critic. However, despite the protests, this guy wasn't even taken off the air for statements like that much less prosecuted. Again there's an obvious double standard here. Apparently people can make such statements against Muslims and get away with it.
    Just to balance things up a bit here.

    There was a television presenter over here in Britain who only a few months back was pushed or forced out of his job through other factors depending on how you look at it, as a direct result of some comment he made in a newspaper column about Islam and some Arab countries; not incitement to murder or hatred but some possibly pretty negaitve and sweeping views of both. I don't believe that you would necessarily act any different as a result [unless you were a bit mentally unstable] but nonetheless was out of a job for thsoe comments.

    That created some uproar in certain quarters over the"freedom of speech" issue and they might have a point to some extent. That was 1 offence in that area.

    Now consider Hamza, not only has he most likely increased racial hatred and incited attacks but he also has this on his CV/Resume

    - Strongly connected with a British based Islamic extremist group by the name of Al Muhajaroon whose aim is to turn Great Britain into an Islamic state and promot jihad around the world.

    - Linked with [believed to have directly influenced] not only Richard Reid "the shoe bomber" who luckily never succeeded, and two Britons who went to Israel to become suicide bombers for Hamas, one carried out an attack on a restaurant and the other fled after failing in his attempt and was found dead weeks later.

    - And that isn't all of it.

    There might be doublestandards with certain cases in certain countries but i'd put to you that it might be a bit more equal than you make out,well from where i'm sitting at least.

    The likes of Hamza no matter their religion cannot, in my view hide behind a right to "freedom of speech", they crossed that line ong agowhen their words turn from rhetoric into reality and actions by themselves or others as a result and then they have to answer the charges put to them. I dunno if you agree on that, although we do appear to on the underlying aim of this thread; i just replied to clear some things up and add a British perspective when compared to your example of a double standard.

    Critic,
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  23. #23
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    From what I got from watching the news that he was threating the country if the troops didnt back out? That people would attack from inside?
    I am back....


  24. #24
    My points were from an American perspective, based on what I've seen. The quotes I gave were almost exactly the words of the people I quoted in each case. I dont think there's a question of 'might' in the US. There ARE definitely double standards. And I'm not trying to make it out to be anything. I realize there are times when people say things that are inappropriate and attack Islam/Muslims and some people step up to the plate to condemn it. But like the cases I mentioned, I have yet to hear any prominent person come out against these two individuals and you can see from the words this goes deeper than 'freedom of speech'. I agree with your point that the person in question in this thread has had links to certain organizations, etc, etc but that does not diminish the impact made by the statements of those people I talked about. I dont think you need to balance things up, because things are balanced as they are ..at least from where I sit...

  25. #25
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    All terrorists deserve to die, that's my opinion.
    It means Bush Senior and Bush Junior should be shot down at first sight?
    "An army of sheep led by a lion would defeat an army of lions led by a sheep"

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