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  1. #1
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    1 message board/forum hosted across many servers

    Is it possible to have one forum (such as Invision or vBulletin) hosted across many different servers (dedicated, VPS, or virtual)?

  2. #2
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    Yea, WHT is.

  3. #3
    You could put the site on one and the database on another.

  4. #4
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  5. #5
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    Running few webservers with one database server is relatively cheap if you need it to be (you can use round robin dns for the webservers and connect them all to a beefy raid5 database server)...
    ^^ IM WITH STUPID!! ^^

    "The only way to overcome fear, is to challenge it head on"
    "The quickest way to get over a woman, is to get under another"

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
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    you probably will start like this:
    - get the biggest DB server possible with 4 or even 6-8GB RAM and 10k rpm or better 15K SCSI RAID 5 or even RAID 10
    - get 3-4 web slaves (dual xeons with cheap IDEs)
    - load balance (per DNS works)

    focus on the DB server and put all your $$ in there. web servers are always easy to add/upgrade later.

    works here with 70M page views/mo

    I then added an other DB slave, mostly to be able to perfom consitent backups but also for a couple really SQL intensive queries (search etc.)

    I hope they get mysql cluster up & running soon...

  7. #7
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    If you can't afford a load balancer
    You may want to start adding a high perf DB server and then another mid/lower end one for the static files (images/js/css) running thttpd/Boa/etc.

  8. #8
    Depending on your database you can also load-balance your DN requests and run replication software on them.
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  9. #9
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    Are you in the market to actually purchase a cluster? If so, you may wish to talk to Paul (rusko here on WHT).

    Regards.

  10. #10
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    thttpd is a nice idea for static files. www.enternexus.com uses multiple servers. 1 Dual Xeon 2.4 or 2.8 database server with 4 GB RAM and 3x36 GB SCSI running RAID 5. 2 web servers, P4's work fine. I believe they use 2 p4 2.4's with 1 GB RAM each. And they just use round robin DNS. Works perfectly and serves 1000-2000 simultaneous users on their MySQL intensive site...

  11. #11
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    hrmm enternexus.com comes up slow for me.
    Steven Ciaburri | Industry's Best Server Management - Rack911.com
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  12. #12
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    thttpd (esp. with epoll) is infact incredible efficient...reminds me of more a kernel module than a user-app... you might serve millions of pics per hour and might wonder if you're really doing that since the load still might be at 0.00...

  13. #13
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    Re: 1 message board/forum hosted across many servers

    Originally posted by VAFS.COM
    Is it possible to have one forum hosted across many different servers?
    - And hosted across many domains, too, where each domain is on a separate server, even on shared accounts - depending on the targeted audience. But the MySQL server should be as depicted.
    :: :: :: :: :: ::
    :: VDSP.Net :: Directory of virtual and dedi serv providers by location and price

  14. #14
    if your forum uses mysql, you are not going to be able to (easily) cluster the db server. as such, you will need to beefiest one your budget allows. scsi, a lot of ram, dual xeon or dual opteron.

    add a number of webserver frontends. depending on your load, p4 2.8 1mb l2 cache prescotts work well for us. if you can afford them, dual p3s 512lb l2 cache tualatins will rock for this. have them connect to the same db backend, of course.

    a hardware load balancer would be nice, but the good ones are expensive++ and you would need two for them to be redundant - you do not want to add a single point of failure.

    there are a number of other possibilities here. my first choice in your case would be weighted round robin dns running on the backend. although it is a single point of failure, it coincides with your existing single point of failure - the db backend. i have found that, for example, our in-house round robin implementation is more full featured than some hardware load balancers in that it is able to make policy-based weighting decisions on where to direct traffic based on a more rich amount of datapoints and factors. of course, you also need to maintain session affinity - if someone logs on on one web frontend, they should not get logged off the forum when their next request is forwarded to a differrent frontend. to that end, you can either apply a patch to php (we have a proprietary one; other vendors offering this solution may have one as well), or as a cleaner alternative, use a snippet of php that registers a session handler which stores the sessions in mysql. this entails a little bit of application modification, but can be easily automated.

    further optimizations, such as using a single-threaded async i/o httpd to serve your static media, eg images, flash and movies, are of course possible. thttpd is nice, but does not have support for hotlink protection. not to fret, we have a patch adding that functionality =]

    voila, you now have your forum running on a dedicated bckend db server and N webserver frontends.
    * Rusko Enterprises LLC - Upgrade to 100% uptime today!
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  15. #15
    The PHP + MySQL is a very bad combination for the forums with such load. There so many options to make it works with J2EE + PostgreSQL - rest of the world does exactly that.

    Peter Kinev.
    Open Solution, Inc
    http://opensolution-us.com

  16. #16
    i'm sorry peter, but using 'java' and 'performance' in the same sentence is a crime. additionally, not everyone has the opportunity or the ability to write their own forum software. when there is an alternative to vbulletin in terms of features that runs on a platform better suited to load balancing, we will all be celebrating at the local bar.

    paul
    * Rusko Enterprises LLC - Upgrade to 100% uptime today!
    * Premium NYC collocation and custom dedicated servers
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    dedicated servers, collocation, load balanced and high availability clusters

  17. #17
    Originally posted by rusko
    i'm sorry peter, but using 'java' and 'performance' in the same sentence is a crime. additionally, not everyone has the opportunity or the ability to write their own forum software. when there is an alternative to vbulletin in terms of features that runs on a platform better suited to load balancing, we will all be celebrating at the local bar.

    paul
    Paul, Paul, you already know me. Do you really want me to prove that Java will outperform PHP anywhere, anytime? Think about that this way - what is wrong with Fortune 500? Why they are so stupid? And why any Fortune 500 web site looks better and does better job than any website written in scripting language? What about maintenability? I can go on and on. Man, let us stop and do not open a can of worms. I think you are from New York. Do you want to make a local visit on Wall Street, to see what those stupids are doing?

    Regards,
    Peter.
    Open Solution, Inc
    http://opensolution-us.com

  18. #18
    Originally posted by pnorilsk
    Paul, Paul, you already know me. Do you really want me to prove that Java will outperform PHP anywhere, anytime?
    please, by all means, go ahead.


    Think about that this way - what is wrong with Fortune 500? Why they are so stupid?
    because php does/did not have a big vendor supporting it, as is the case with sun and java. php is younger as well. you have worked with the enterprise - you know that technical merit is rather low on the list when the decisions are made (business risk, tco propaganda etc are usually at the top) and the shots are called by people who are far from being sufficiently technical. seeing 'java' on the cover of every single magazine aimed at the CIO/VPoIT level ensured they signed off on the proposal that had the largest amount of familiar words in it.

    besides, what does 'a lot of people use it and they have a lot of money' have to do with anything? those same enterprises were commisioning cobol apps a while back and still hang on to their shiny mainframes running said cobol apps.


    And why any Fortune 500 web site looks better and does better job than any website written in scripting language?
    the look of a website is orthogonal to the discussion. as far as doing a better job, which is arguable, but assuming the statement is true, would likely have to do with more resources and better planning. this is assuming that all of the enterprise websites are implemented with JXXX, which is no longer true.


    What about maintenability? I can go on and on.
    maintainability has to do with the design and the implementation more than anything, provided you aren't using something like the aforementioned cobol =] i have seen jsp/jxxx apps which noone wanted to touch with a ten foot pole, so they got farmed out to the quiet girl just out of college because she didn't have the balls to protest. i've seen php apps that are an example of excellent architecture and engineering. i've seen it the other way around too. a programming language is a *tool* in the hands of the engineers - provided the tool is adequate, the skills of the person wielding it is what makes the difference in the end result.


    Man, let us stop and do not open a can of worms. I think you are from New York. Do you want to make a local visit on Wall Street, to see what those stupids are doing?
    see above - just because everyone (in a certain group) is doing it does not make it right. everybody on the web (with the exception of enterprises) uses php - in some cases, it was a completely wrong engineering decision.

    as far as opening a can of worms, you made a statement and i asked you to substantiate it. i am not a CIO, please stay technical instead of trying to invoke my herd instinct.

    paul
    * Rusko Enterprises LLC - Upgrade to 100% uptime today!
    * Premium NYC collocation and custom dedicated servers
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  19. #19
    Originally posted by rusko
    please, by all means, go ahead.



    because php does/did not have a big vendor supporting it, as is the case with sun and java. php is younger as well. you have worked with the enterprise - you know that technical merit is rather low on the list when the decisions are made (business risk, tco propaganda etc are usually at the top) and the shots are called by people who are far from being sufficiently technical. seeing 'java' on the cover of every single magazine aimed at the CIO/VPoIT level ensured they signed off on the proposal that had the largest amount of familiar words in it.

    besides, what does 'a lot of people use it and they have a lot of money' have to do with anything? those same enterprises were commisioning cobol apps a while back and still hang on to their shiny mainframes running said cobol apps.



    the look of a website is orthogonal to the discussion. as far as doing a better job, which is arguable, but assuming the statement is true, would likely have to do with more resources and better planning. this is assuming that all of the enterprise websites are implemented with JXXX, which is no longer true.



    maintainability has to do with the design and the implementation more than anything, provided you aren't using something like the aforementioned cobol =] i have seen jsp/jxxx apps which noone wanted to touch with a ten foot pole, so they got farmed out to the quiet girl just out of college because she didn't have the balls to protest. i've seen php apps that are an example of excellent architecture and engineering. i've seen it the other way around too. a programming language is a *tool* in the hands of the engineers - provided the tool is adequate, the skills of the person wielding it is what makes the difference in the end result.



    see above - just because everyone (in a certain group) is doing it does not make it right. everybody on the web (with the exception of enterprises) uses php - in some cases, it was a completely wrong engineering decision.

    as far as opening a can of worms, you made a statement and i asked you to substantiate it. i am not a CIO, please stay technical instead of trying to invoke my herd instinct.

    paul
    I wanted to give you some "space" after our first interaction in the "cluster" thread, but you challenge me again. Paul, these statements of yours are the worst case of demagogy. The problem is you don't know about that. It's too bad. You mentioned about my experience with big enterprises - you are correct I worked with many firms on the Street, but I also work in the kernel development of AIX (you use it now in Linux) and Sun Microsystems. I also have a substantial experience to operate small business of my own.

    Here is a snippet from one guy posting on this subject, I cannot do it better. (I used it in this forum twice already and I think you know that). It will also save my time. Finally, please be careful with you conclusions / recommendations - some of them are simply dangerous for uneducated public (see your signature and compare it with our discussion about 100% of availability)

    "The installation base is the primary reason I'm using PHP for a project now; it's intended for use by novices who most likely are in a virtual hosting environment without access to a servlet container. But whenever I'm working on it I find myself longing for a lot of the features of Java.\n\n Simply put, Java is a real programming language and PHP isn't. While you can code in a non-OO way with Java, anyone that uses it much has the whole concept drummed into their heads at an early stage. So even a rotten app written in Java is generally much more maintainable than one written in PHP. The language is bigger, it's more flexible, and it gives you much finer-grained control over what's going on than does PHP. Want a GUI? No problem. Database connection pooling? Ditto. A multi-threaded app? Objects that persist between server calls? To use XML and XSL? You get the idea.\n\n And there are so many fantastic open-source resources for Java. Jakarta awes me, and so does a lot of the stuff on sourceforge. I'm learning Ant, Hibernate and the JSTL right now--it's like being a kid in a candy store. By contrast, what's available for PHP is a joke. Sure, Metabase and Smarty are both good projects, but I have a hard time thinking of any other decent PHP libraries (and that includes what's in PEAR). And those examples aren't anywhere near the functionality and maturity of Eclipse or Cocoon, just to name two.\n\n My thought: if you want to hack out a webapp in a weekend, definitely go with PHP. If you're building anything you're going to be stuck maintaining for a while, or even rebuilding a Java app that completely stinks, salvage as much of the code as you can and stay with Java. You'll be much happier in the long run.\n\n"

    It was written last year. Few things are different now in a Java world, for instance formalization of "Attributes and Aspects Oriented Programming"

    Peter Kinev.
    Open Solution, Inc
    http://opensolution-us.com

  20. #20
    Originally posted by pnorilsk
    I wanted to give you some "space" after our first interaction in the "cluster" thread, but you challenge me again.
    this is not a kindergarten fight in a sandbox, so please ditch that mentality. i was not 'challenging' you in the cluster thead, i am not 'challenging' you now. you made a statement, i disagreed. this is a basis for a sound technical discussion, not a name-calling soliloquy.


    Paul, these statements of yours are the worst case of demagogy.
    demagogy is a rhethorical technique whereby the speaker uses the audience's prejudices to make his point. it is often (incorrectly) used to describe a speaker twisting logic to arrive at his conclusion. i fail to see where i have done either.

    to be quite honest though, i don't have much to respond to, since you continue to evade the technical matter of the discussion.


    The problem is you don't know about that. It's too bad.
    about what? i don't understand what you mean. besides, please don;t assume what i do and do not know.


    You mentioned about my experience with big enterprises - you are correct I worked with many firms on the Street,
    i bet it looks great on your resume. this, however, is not a job interview. next.


    but I also work in the kernel development of AIX (you use it now in Linux)
    i can respect that as a fellow kernel coder. fine. how does that pertain to the matter we were discussing? if i am asked a technical question, i don't go listing everything i've done expecting the person in question to accept that i know the answer but am somehow above elaborating on it.

    IBM contributed manpower to various projects. if i recall, NUMA and scaling went pretty well. cifsvfs is/was a disaster. again, what does this have to do with anything? are you claiming that aix somehow made linux what it is?


    and Sun Microsystems. I also have a substantial experience to operate small business of my own.
    welcome to the club. again, i was not calling your competence into question, i just happened to disagree with you.


    Here is a snippet from one guy posting on this subject, I cannot do it better. (I used it in this forum twice already and I think you know that).
    no, i haven't seen this posted anywhere.


    It will also save my time.
    if you can't be bothered contributing to the discussion, why participate?


    Finally, please be careful with you conclusions / recommendations - some of them are simply dangerous for uneducated public (see your signature and compare it with our discussion about 100% of availability)
    if you disagree with a conclusion or recommendation i made, please post in the respective thread and give me a heads up. i am always glad to participate in a technical discussion and learn new things - if i am wrong, i will admit it and thank you for correcting me.

    as far as my signature, we provide a 100% uptime SLA on connectivity. this is different from service availability which we were previously discussing.


    "The installation base is the primary reason I'm using PHP for a project now; it's intended for use by novices
    and this statement is substantiated how? just because a lot of people choose to learn php as their first language, as they earlier chose to learn asm and later c?


    who most likely are in a virtual hosting environment without access to a servlet container.
    the reason we don't see servlet containers in a virtual hosting environment is because they eat ram for breakfast, lunch and dinner and are not commercially feasible. there are other reasons, such as people not being interested in developing for them because they can not provide the required level of performance and yes, ease of development.


    But whenever I'm working on it I find myself longing for a lot of the features of Java.
    fair enough, he likes java better. my personal favorite is c. one person's opinion does not an absolute truth make.


    Simply put, Java is a real programming language and PHP isn't.
    i call bullcrap. just another bullcrap statement with no arguments to back it up. grass is blue. there, i said it, it must be true. i would be interested in this guy's criteria for a 'real programming language'. peter, since you agree with him, you are welcome to make his point for him since he is likely not present to do so.


    While you can code in a non-OO way with Java, anyone that uses it much has the whole concept drummed into their heads at an early stage. So even a rotten app written in Java is generally much more maintainable than one written in PHP.
    ok, so the guy likes OO. he also seems to think that everyone should be coding OO *only*, regardless of the circumstances. this is, of course, complete crap. if *he* needs access specifiers to keep him honest, that's fine - i can code OO in c, implementing only the features i care about while i have much more control. i hate it when closed-minded people make sweeping statements, trying to force what works best for them on everyone else.

    what he is saying, essentially, is that java forces a paradigm on the developer so that even bad developers that were really meant to be janitors write decent code. why should i care? i can code circles around the guy all day while he's figuring out where his null pointer exceptions are coming from.


    The language is bigger,
    he means the library, not the language. while java does have a lot of nifty stuff in the libs, php clearly has much more functionality useful when doing web development than java does. you end up reimplementing the wheel either way, except you reimplement different things in java and php respectively.


    it's more flexible, and it gives you much finer-grained control over what's going on than does PHP.
    /
    not sure what is meant here at all. some substantiated arguments would be nice, but it seems it's a bit too much to expect from the poor chap.

    as far as flexible, php's sytax is essentially c syntax with some OO extensions. i have personally found c to be an excellent balance between expressiveness, amount of typing involved and readability. millions of people and billions of slocs agree. some people are still cobol fans, and that is fine. live and let live.


    Want a GUI? No problem. Database connection pooling? Ditto. A multi-threaded app? Objects that persist between server calls? To use XML and XSL? You get the idea.
    gui - irrelevant, we are talking about the web. i like smarty better than i like templating engines available for jsp.

    db connection pooling - built into php already, you don't have to write a single line of code to take advantage of it. next.

    multi-threaded app - like the gui, it is a feature you talk about in the context of standalone apps on the endsystem. php is multi-threading safe when loaded into a multithreaded httpd.

    objects that persist between server calls - php has two session implementations and you can write your own too and make it the default with one function call.

    xml and xsl - implemented as the respective extensions.

    please note that all of these features were present in php over 3 years ago. so no, these are not recent developments.


    And there are so many fantastic open-source resources for Java. Jakarta awes me, and so does a lot of the stuff on sourceforge. I'm learning Ant, Hibernate and the JSTL right now--it's like being a kid in a candy store. By contrast, what's available for PHP is a joke. Sure, Metabase and Smarty are both good projects, but I have a hard time thinking of any other decent PHP libraries (and that includes what's in PEAR). And those examples aren't anywhere near the functionality and maturity of Eclipse or Cocoon, just to name two.
    there are quite a few. not that it matters - so much functionality is built into php that most of your coding time involves implementing the core logic and maybe hacking up some pattern libs.


    My thought: if you want to hack out a webapp in a weekend, definitely go with PHP.
    this is a compliment. what he means, in fewer words, is that php has a lot of web-related functionality that you would be stuck reimplementing if you were using java. this also speaks to the experssiveness of php's syntax.


    If you're building anything you're going to be stuck maintaining for a while, or even rebuilding a Java app that completely stinks, salvage as much of the code as you can and stay with Java. You'll be much happier in the long run."
    just because you can hack something up fast in a certain language does not mean that you can not design and implement your app cleanly in the same language. the notable exception is perl, which *imho* is universally a horrible thing to maintain.

    java has its uses and i am not denying that. performance and resource conservation sensitive applications are not it, imho.

    ok, so now we have gone and started a language vs language discussion. i firmly believe in the 'right tool for the job' modus operandi, so the only reason i let myself be drawn into this is because the statements made by the person you quoted were ignorantly fallacious.

    if you recall, you were going to prove to me that java always outperforms php. while we have discussed a fair number of topics comparing the two languages, we have not discussed the performance or why java is better suited for the development of scalable applications.

    paul
    * Rusko Enterprises LLC - Upgrade to 100% uptime today!
    * Premium NYC collocation and custom dedicated servers
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    dedicated servers, collocation, load balanced and high availability clusters

  21. #21
    Listen Paul, I think I failed again to prove you anything. I don't think you have any experience in Java, I don't think you are also qualified to discuss fairly complicated technical issues. And this is true (obviously in my opinion).

    I think I will be better off in avoiding you in the forum. The problem is, public will suffer.

    And, please remove this idiotic 100% from the signature. It reflects level of your knowledge and also my stupidity to allow be engaged in this dialog.

    I certainly can prove you something by offering to build your site with J2EE + PostgreSQL in one day - with forum, CMS, shopping cart, portal, dynamic content, etc. Take this offer, it's free.

    Good luck.

    Peter.
    Open Solution, Inc
    http://opensolution-us.com

  22. #22
    Join Date
    May 2004
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    351
    I think the poor guys question has already been asnwered.

    Some things:
    1. I can see situations (many in fact) where using more than on thread for a single client can be quite useful. If this is not available in php, java has this advantage.
    2. Java is as close to compiled code as you will get now-a-days with all the jiting and binary caching type of mechanisms.
    3. Java is strongly typed (compared to php at least) which DOES make the code more readable and maintainable.
    4. I agree that Java is probably not a good idea for shared environments.
    5. In the hands of a properly trained individual, both could probably accomplish the same tasks well enough.
    6. I hate JDBC.
    7. Using java for an application like a bulletin board is not smart because of the large memory overhead of the jre.
    8. It is said that even Sun prefers not to use java for many of their internal solutions. What this means is that there are some jobs that java is not suited for. It does NOT mean that java sucks etc...
    9. You can get some VERY high performance applications out of java. In fact, for many applications that require intensive processing on the program side, one can get performance comparable to natively compiled applications.

  23. #23
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Posts
    530
    I've had experiences with the both of them, and I will say that Java is nowhere near as good as PHP when it comes to designing webapps. It just wasn't intended for that purpose, and it isn't it's focus.

    Network applications and web applicaitons are very different things. I want to do spiffy things internetwork, with real programs running, Java. If i want to make a spiffy web program, PHP.

    It's apples to oranges. Sure, there are plenty of Java extensions out there turning it into a webapp development language, but that wasn't it's original purpose, and by very easy reasoning, something designed for a purpose will do better than something that wasn't.

    When it comes to web apps, think of it this way:

    PHP is an actual lawn mower
    Java is a metal fan strapped onto a cart


    It's really that simple

  24. #24
    Originally posted by pnorilsk
    Listen Paul, I think I failed again to prove you anything.
    right. that is because you have failed to put forward a single factual, substantiated technical argument. is this my fault somehow?


    I don't think you have any experience in Java, I don't think you are also qualified to discuss fairly complicated technical issues. And this is true (obviously in my opinion).
    and i, in turn, doubt you have any experience with php. regardless, the fact that you resorted to namecalling proves my point.

    have you even *once* made an attempt to discuss 'fairly complicated technical issues' with me, or anyone else for this matter, on these fora? all i have seen is namedropping, references to your past and present work and appeals for us, the public, to bow down to your superior intellect that is too superior for you to even begin to enlighten us with your superior knowledge.

    stop stroking your ego and contribute. arrogance with no basis may work well for you in the rarified atmosphere of the fortune 500, but it won't get you far here. subtance, however, will. so bring it.

    you can call me incompetent as much as you like. i will continue answering people's questions, as time permits, and let them judge the worth of my posts.

    the response i have received from the people i've helped is indeed very positive; feel free to tell people to rewrite their forum software in java though, i'm sure they will find that gem of a piece of advice very useful.

    by the way, while you are doing that, i will be building clusters for people who need practical solutions and clearly consider me competent enough to vote with their dollars.


    I think I will be better off in avoiding you in the forum. The problem is, public will suffer.
    the public was getting along fine without you. i shudder to think what would happen if you deny us the privilege of your company in the future, especially given how much you have contributed to the technical discussions here at WHT.


    And, please remove this idiotic 100% from the signature. It reflects level of your knowledge and also my stupidity to allow be engaged in this dialog.
    we offer a 100% network availability SLA and stand by it. by the way, internap offers the same thing. are you an expert in network operations too? let me guess, you were the guy that told al gore how to invent the internet.


    I certainly can prove you something by offering to build your site with J2EE + PostgreSQL in one day - with forum, CMS, shopping cart, portal, dynamic content, etc. Take this offer, it's free.
    i never claimed this was not possible to do with java. especially considering that you would be reusing pre-existing code. you would be proving something i have never argued against. let me guess, you are then going to complain that you can never prove anything to me. i wonder why.

    paul
    * Rusko Enterprises LLC - Upgrade to 100% uptime today!
    * Premium NYC collocation and custom dedicated servers
    call 1-877-MY-RUSKO or paul [at] rusko.us

    dedicated servers, collocation, load balanced and high availability clusters

  25. #25
    Originally posted by TalonKarrde
    I've had experiences with the both of them, and I will say that Java is nowhere near as good as PHP when it comes to designing webapps. It just wasn't intended for that purpose, and it isn't it's focus.

    Network applications and web applicaitons are very different things. I want to do spiffy things internetwork, with real programs running, Java. If i want to make a spiffy web program, PHP.

    It's apples to oranges. Sure, there are plenty of Java extensions out there turning it into a webapp development language, but that wasn't it's original purpose, and by very easy reasoning, something designed for a purpose will do better than something that wasn't.

    When it comes to web apps, think of it this way:

    PHP is an actual lawn mower
    Java is a metal fan strapped onto a cart


    It's really that simple
    1. I am not sure I understood it. In our world one of the big difference between design in scripting languages and Java is OOP approach in J2EE, for instance using "Attributes Oriented Programming" and O/R mapping frameworks I can design, built, and deploy application such as "Shopping Cart" in two hours with database built in place. One single command will create database , database tables with all referential integrity constrains and Java classes with embedded JDBC. Now at this time using another template (real template, not what has its meaning on this forum) driven framework I will built front (facade). Will add some business logic in places reserved by these frameworks. And application is ready.

    2. ...

    3. The J2EE technology/frameworks/approaches/methodology has many different components and packages, some of them built-in, some of them extensions. In my test, too many. But it's one single technology and should be referred this way. Otherwise indeed we are talking apples and oranges.

    Peter Kinev.
    Open Solution, Inc
    http://opensolution-us.com

  26. #26
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    Its not that simple talonkarde.
    There are many things that a java solution would be better for compared to a php solution. You CAN get better performance than php. The question is, what is the cost. PHP is simple to learn, and it takes less resources initially. There are points where java overtakes php. It is useless to argue that either one is a one size fits all for web apps.
    An object oriented application is in _general_ more maintainable than a language that has added OO paradigms as an after thought. Again, this is not the case across the board, but it is generally true.

    And to reitirate, java can be at least as performant as php if used in the right situations (even more performant in fact).

  27. #27
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    I've yet to see anyone implemant Java in a way that it can outperform PHP in an online, active, web-based situation. Never, ever. And I look around alot, too.


    Yes, it may be faster to write, but the resource usage is much higher than it would be on php.


    Peter, as for not getting #2, which I think is quite simple: I would use PHP for doing something involving stuff running on my webserver. If I wanted to do something involving my server dealing with other computers within the network, I would use Java.

  28. #28
    Originally posted by cord
    I think the poor guys question has already been asnwered.

    Some things:
    1. I can see situations (many in fact) where using more than on thread for a single client can be quite useful. If this is not available in php, java has this advantage.
    2. Java is as close to compiled code as you will get now-a-days with all the jiting and binary caching type of mechanisms.
    3. Java is strongly typed (compared to php at least) which DOES make the code more readable and maintainable.
    4. I agree that Java is probably not a good idea for shared environments.
    5. In the hands of a properly trained individual, both could probably accomplish the same tasks well enough.
    6. I hate JDBC.
    7. Using java for an application like a bulletin board is not smart because of the large memory overhead of the jre.
    8. It is said that even Sun prefers not to use java for many of their internal solutions. What this means is that there are some jobs that java is not suited for. It does NOT mean that java sucks etc...
    9. You can get some VERY high performance applications out of java. In fact, for many applications that require intensive processing on the program side, one can get performance comparable to natively compiled applications.
    Cord,

    I agree with almost all your points. I am not sure about 6 and 7. I yet to see an application with requirement for heap size more than 512MB (it's still a lot).

    I can recommend to get report from "The Middlewear Company" about performance study .NET vs J2EE. Remember .NET is native to platform with C# which is cousin of C which is used for writing of PHP.

    If you have any problem with getting this report I would be happy to provide one.

    Peter.
    Open Solution, Inc
    http://opensolution-us.com

  29. #29
    Originally posted by TalonKarrde
    I've yet to see anyone implemant Java in a way that it can outperform PHP in an online, active, web-based situation. Never, ever. And I look around alot, too.

    There are not available reports about direct comparison of PHP and Java (I would prefer to use J2EE/J2SE - it reflects better state of the Java at present time). It will be always "apples" and "oranges". But there is a well publicized study by "The Middlewear Company" subsidized and instigated by guess whom - MS and in MS facilities. It's a long story, but effectively they found no difference in a performance of .NET vs J2EE for the same type of application - "Shopping Cart".

    Now, .NET is using C# natively compiled language sitting directly on the platform, same way as C, its cousin. As you know PHP is a program written in C. Would you suggest that PHP is faster than C? I don't think so.

    This is quite "vulgar" approach. But, the simple undeniable fact is that .NET is not faster than J2EE. And guess what, some people on my side argue the validity of "Shopping Cart" design with J2EE as “The Middlewear Company” did it. We know how to do it better with a different J2EE based approach now.

    Peter.
    Open Solution, Inc
    http://opensolution-us.com

  30. #30
    C# is 'managed', so comparing it to c++ or c is misguided. here is some guy's unscientific backyard benchmark:

    http://www.programmersheaven.com/2/Art_CSharp_8

    and this is on windows, no less.

    paul
    * Rusko Enterprises LLC - Upgrade to 100% uptime today!
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  31. #31
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    Excuse me, but where did .NET come into this discussion? It seems pulled out of thin air. I dislike Microsoft because of the lack of quality, so you compare J2EE/J2SE to something that is inferior? That sort of arguement makes no sense.

  32. #32
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    I think he was making that comment to me. I primarily develop on .NET. If he has seen some of my other posts, he would have known this

  33. #33
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    Off topic... but how can you stand working on it? J2EE/J2SE definately is better than an MS product

  34. #34
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    Rusko,
    I must say I am disappointed that you linked to that benchmark. I certainly did not even speak about c# myself initially and wasnt intending to until you posted that (even though you mention in was not scientific). I would have expected you to add some caveats that are very much necessary when pointing to such benchmarks.
    It is perhaps one of the worst bechmarks I have ever seen (on software performance). Microbenchmarks are in general absolutely useless. This is the case unless your application is actually intent on doing the same thing 1000000 and nothing else.

    btw, I mean no offense by the disappointment comment. It is just that I never envisioned you presenting such a benchmark as evidence.

  35. #35
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    OT:
    How can I stand working with dotnet?
    A: I really enjoy c#. I enjoy its class library more than that of Java (even though they seem somewhat similar). I love being able to mix languages especially if I am not the soul developer. Since I use c# for alot of things other than web development, I enjoy being able to develop everything with it.
    Also, until recently the async socket api in java was not just lacking but partly broken. This was not the case for dotnet. I still cant belive how broken java was.
    Additionally, I do some minor game programming for which directx has excellent bindings in c# (great performance too). I like many of the tools that come with Visual Studio .NET (which I get for 5 dollars. In fact, I get all microsoft software for 5 dollars each from school).

    I must say, I write alot of java as well, though I dont any web apps in java anymore.

    I am a firm believer of "best tool for the job". Therefore, I try to learn everything and use them whenever necessary

  36. #36
    Originally posted by cord
    Rusko,
    I must say I am disappointed that you linked to that benchmark. I certainly did not even speak about c# myself initially and wasnt intending to until you posted that (even though you mention in was not scientific). I would have expected you to add some caveats that are very much necessary when pointing to such benchmarks.
    It is perhaps one of the worst bechmarks I have ever seen (on software performance). Microbenchmarks are in general absolutely useless. This is the case unless your application is actually intent on doing the same thing 1000000 and nothing else.

    btw, I mean no offense by the disappointment comment. It is just that I never envisioned you presenting such a benchmark as evidence.
    microbenchmarks have their uses. while the values may not be spot on, the point i was trying to make is that c++ != c# in terms of performance. hence, peter's statement that they are equivalent is wrong. do you disagree with that?

    paul
    * Rusko Enterprises LLC - Upgrade to 100% uptime today!
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  37. #37
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    nope. But, I have also seen benchmarks in which c++ is followed VERY closely by c#. I did not comment on peter's assertion. I commented on yours because micro benchmarks are quite dangerous unless their results are used properly.
    eg.
    if c++ is faster at a[i]=a[i-1]+1; running a million times, that is what it means, that it is faster at that one task. This is what a microbenchmark (that has been carefuly executed) means. Many people will draw a conclusion such as: c++ is faster in array operations. This is an incorrect conclusion based on the microbenchmark. I just wanted to point this out as I have seen many people be tricked by these benchmarks.
    This goes for all languages.

  38. #38
    perhaps i shouldn't have saved time by linking to emprirical evidence. sorry to offend you cord.

    anything .net, including c# requires the clr. the clr is a loose equivalent of the jvm. safe managed code has constraints on write data access, for example.

    p
    * Rusko Enterprises LLC - Upgrade to 100% uptime today!
    * Premium NYC collocation and custom dedicated servers
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  39. #39
    Originally posted by cord
    nope. But, I have also seen benchmarks in which c++ is followed VERY closely by c#. I did not comment on peter's assertion. I commented on yours because micro benchmarks are quite dangerous unless their results are used properly.
    eg.
    if c++ is faster at a[i]=a[i-1]+1; running a million times, that is what it means, that it is faster at that one task. This is what a microbenchmark (that has been carefuly executed) means. Many people will draw a conclusion such as: c++ is faster in array operations. This is an incorrect conclusion based on the microbenchmark. I just wanted to point this out as I have seen many people be tricked by these benchmarks.
    This goes for all languages.
    OK, there is some light in the end of the tunnel. I still recommend for everybody, please get "The Middleware Company" report. It will put things in a prospective. Frankly I would be slightly surprised if you, Cord didn't read it before.

    Peter.
    Open Solution, Inc
    http://opensolution-us.com

  40. #40
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    I love these arguments

    People can argue ad nauseum about what's better, I look at it this way:

    I know PHP. I don't know Java.

    Therefore, which is better for me to use in my web development? Probably the language I know. (Unless I want to pay a developer to do it for me).

    I code in PHP, and *hate* OOP. I grew up programming procedurally in QuickBasic. Before objects or methods had even been conceived. I believe anything that can be done using an object or class or whatever the hell they're called can be done just as well using a function in a stateless environment such as http. Although I did always have a difficult time wrapping my head around OOP.

    Back to the *original* topic of this thread, however--

    As my site grows I have given thought to how I will load balance once I outgrow a single dedicated server, and I did give it this thought:

    If your site is not mission-critical (ie., a community site), you might consider having a single master database for writes, and then 2 or 3 slaves for reads, one dedicated for searches, etc.

    I haven't looked at MySQL Cluster yet (not quite there yet), but without a dedicated clustering solution, using MySQL's already available replication and simply using common sense to seperate the servers' roles (1 for write, 2 for read, 1 for search, etc), as well as doing the same with your HTTP functionality (one for images, one for static pages, one for code)--or even *further* breaking that down--(ie., login.yoursite.com, searches.yoursite.com, forums.yoursite.com, forumpost.yoursite.com) you might be able to go far without specifically coding any load-balancing procedures; simply seperating your site onto several machines and having each machine serve a different role.

    I rambled. Oops! lol I hope I got my message across though.

    -squeak

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