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  1. #51
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    Originally posted by cwieland
    yes if you can get a company whos word is good in the web hosting indestry like WHT but they need people to do research into these companies
    Problem 1: subjective judgement

    Problem 2: constant checks are needed to make sure quality does not slip

    Suggestion: Why don't we start small first - write up an article, have hosts link to it prominently on their site (maybe on the orders page), and let customers decide for themselves if they are really getting a good deal or are just being misled?

  2. #52
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    If someone is serious about the content I'd be happy to host this website free of charge no matter how popular it gets? I know we're all hosts and could offer this but I just want to put the offer on the table if anyone's serious about this project

    Andrew
    NetHosted - UK based hosting solutions.

  3. #53
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    Well I would put some time into if you guys would like ummm my email is cwieland@phimagroup.com only serious offers and ideas should write me.


    Thanks,
    Chuckie
    Charles R. Wieland
    Chief Technical Officer
    Phima Group, LLC
    http://www.phimagroup.com

  4. #54
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    Andrew, that's generous of you.

    However, someone has to write the contents first

  5. #55
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    Originally posted by code_renegade
    Suggestion: Why don't we start small first - write up an article, have hosts link to it prominently on their site (maybe on the orders page), and let customers decide for themselves if they are really getting a good deal or are just being misled?
    Good idea

    Andrew
    NetHosted - UK based hosting solutions.

  6. #56
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    As i started this whole darn debate, i'll be putting some time into it ;-)

    Problem 1: subjective judgement
    Vetting process would be put together as a result of a group debate, with sensible guidelines. Each host would be judged the same, regardless of size or other factors.

    Problem 2: constant checks are needed to make sure quality does not slip
    That is down to whoever actually works on this project

    Dave

  7. #57
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    RocketDave, as per an earlier post, I think starting small is best for now. A good, unbias 'Hosting 101' article with hosts linking to it should be the stepping stone. Setting up this system of checks will be too much work at this stage, especially if you don't know if everything will work out

  8. #58
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    Renegade....absolutely in agreement with you, should of made that clear in the last post.

    If we can work to generate content and get a basic framework together in the future however, it could go places.

    Dave

  9. #59
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    For that, Dave, you've got to find people with enough experience in the hosting industry to write up the article. Perhaps get some high-priced hosts, average-price hosts and lower-priced hosts to offer their perspectives on what is 'reasonable pricing', explain to consumers what they are really paying for (i.e. service and quality), and have consumers offer their view of why they want cheap prices. Hey - maybe you can even have several discussions pages where a customer writes about why he or she likes an account of a certain price (too high, too low, plain average, etc) and have hosters offer their viewpoints with a conclusion at the end of it all. Provides interesting reads for hosting newbies and oldies as well

    Education should always be an entertaining and informative process, no?

  10. #60
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    I should note that I'm not a host myself - I just happen to use my reseller account to hosts my friends

    Call me an enduser with too much time on my hands. I so need to go to bed now

  11. #61
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    Nice nice I like the ideas that are flowing here
    Charles R. Wieland
    Chief Technical Officer
    Phima Group, LLC
    http://www.phimagroup.com

  12. #62
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    I shall use my position as a Sales Consultant for a reputable UK hosting company to good advantage.

    Also helps that i'm going to Internet World 2004 at Earls Court next month. ;-)

    Thanks for the feedback renegade.

    Dave

    P.S And no...i don't work for Rackspace.

  13. #63
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    My pleasure, Dave. I get pretty fed up when I see people coming in to complain that their 5gb/100gb for $5 host went down on them all the time. So anything to stop this industry from going to pits will do all of us (hosts and customers alike) good.

  14. #64
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    Great thread guys, we really need to start focusing this industry on quality rather than "quantity".

    For you hosts giving accounts away at $2/month, next time you go downtown start looking around at various services you see around town, for example, I noticed a sign the other day for haircuts, it was $11.95 for a haircut, I thought to myself "self, why should I give away a full years worth of service for little more than the price of a haircut that takes 10-20 minutes to perform?", it's time to stop these rediculous prices really.

    I really get the feeling that many of the low priced outfits are the kids in the industry who don't have rent to pay, don't have a mortgage, don't have much in the way of bills and in their minds as long as the server rental is covered with $20 in their pockets for looking after it they're happy.

    The rest of us have mouths to feed, we have the mortgage, we have to pay the taxman, we have to make ends meet and most importantly our servers have to have a decent ROI.

    When it comes to reseller accounts, I find it crazy that many hosts are giving these away for what used to be the rates for regular hosting accounts. It's no wonder the resellers are selling $2/month accounts when they can get the resale account for $20/month from some hosts. Pricing should be based on XX% off your retail hosting accounts, not 10% the price of them.

    Anyway, hosts with more realistic pricing will endure, I've always had clients who wandered off to the cheap hosts come back as I'm sure many other hosts have had as well. The good clients realize we are running businesses with real costs involved, they are smart enough to know not to trust their business sites with someone foolish enough to be willing to supply 12 months of service for less than the price of dinner in a family restaurant (in many cases that restaurant is McDonald's!).
    Dynanet Network Services - 206-607-9075
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  15. #65
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    The main problem lies in getting the public to recognize that they will have to pay more for quality. I think most consumers see web hosting as an internet commodity. Just like they wouldn't like having to pay 5 bucks for a soda when they can get it from a coke machine for 75 cents, they're not going to go for web hosting for $10 a month, when joe blow is offering hosting paradise for just $1.00 a month.

    At my company, we've actually lowered our sales price 3 times in the past 5 months. Though we're fairly competitive now, we're still seeing users transfer away to other hosts. The love our support, and admit they usually aren't able to get a response from their new host for over a week, but they still decide to go for the lower price.

    We're in a terrible economic slump, so it's only natural the customers are looking for the lowest price possible. Unfortunately I believe it will be VERY VERY hard to reverse this trend.
    DreamLogic Cult Film and Music Reviews
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  16. #66
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    Yes until something is done the customer is always gonna go with the lower price.
    Charles R. Wieland
    Chief Technical Officer
    Phima Group, LLC
    http://www.phimagroup.com

  17. #67
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    I don't agree that the problem lies with the consumer... if someone is scammed, they are scammed. Yes, consumers can do research but many rely on the business to provide what they promote.

    We have to remember that this is a young industry. As with any industry you will have people who jump in early on to get a fast buck, not realizing the work that goes into running a real webhosting company. Remember the U.S. automotive market started with several hundred automobile manufactures... now we are left with the big 3 (if you can call it the big three due to mergers, ect.).

    I started my own webhosting company until I realized the REAL work that goes into customer support.

    With so many of hosting companies offering "reseller" accounts at a relative low start up cost, it is no wonder people can be a hosting company. The real deal here is how can a "great" hosting company deal with this issue and realize people want a deal... like the big three offers cars at under 10,000 all the way up to over 100,000.

    Customers are screaming for better prices, but many of the "good" hosting don't hear this.
    Windows 10 to Linux and Mac OSX: I'm PARSECs better than you. Eat my dust!!!

  18. #68
    huh, a question, how do we know when the hosting is from a reseller?

  19. #69
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    Dynanet
    Could not agree with you more.
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  20. #70
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    Originally posted by Dynanet
    Great thread guys, we really need to start focusing this industry on quality rather than "quantity".

    For you hosts giving accounts away at $2/month, next time you go downtown start looking around at various services you see around town, for example, I noticed a sign the other day for haircuts, it was $11.95 for a haircut, I thought to myself "self, why should I give away a full years worth of service for little more than the price of a haircut that takes 10-20 minutes to perform?", it's time to stop these rediculous prices really.

    I really get the feeling that many of the low priced outfits are the kids in the industry who don't have rent to pay, don't have a mortgage, don't have much in the way of bills and in their minds as long as the server rental is covered with $20 in their pockets for looking after it they're happy.

    The rest of us have mouths to feed, we have the mortgage, we have to pay the taxman, we have to make ends meet and most importantly our servers have to have a decent ROI.

    When it comes to reseller accounts, I find it crazy that many hosts are giving these away for what used to be the rates for regular hosting accounts. It's no wonder the resellers are selling $2/month accounts when they can get the resale account for $20/month from some hosts. Pricing should be based on XX% off your retail hosting accounts, not 10% the price of them.

    Anyway, hosts with more realistic pricing will endure, I've always had clients who wandered off to the cheap hosts come back as I'm sure many other hosts have had as well. The good clients realize we are running businesses with real costs involved, they are smart enough to know not to trust their business sites with someone foolish enough to be willing to supply 12 months of service for less than the price of dinner in a family restaurant (in many cases that restaurant is McDonald's!).
    ive been saying the same thing for months, glad someone else agrees.

    i just rasied my prices yet again. my smallest plan is 11.99 and it goes up from there. seems like the more i raise prices, the more clients i get. do you think im kidding?? it is the truth.

    i think MOST reasonable businesses are suspicious of cheap prices.
    if you haven't considered chapter 7 bankruptcy, maybe you should.
    eliminate your debt, keep the property you want, most people qualify.
    contrary to popular belief - no attorney is necessary!

  21. #71
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    Lauren,

    We have what we think are competetive prices our lowest one being around 6.95 a month. I am in agreement about the higher prices though. We have had numerous lawyer firms, banks, religious faiths, sporting goods, and art retailers mention that are prices seem rather cheap when signing up. We also find out that the service they came from sometimes are 3 to 4 times higher than prices we currently offer and they received less services and features for that cost.

    So I tend to agree with the higher prices also.
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  22. #72
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    i agree! its all about the services! and the DC
    if you haven't considered chapter 7 bankruptcy, maybe you should.
    eliminate your debt, keep the property you want, most people qualify.
    contrary to popular belief - no attorney is necessary!

  23. #73
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    Mar 2004
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    Vancouver Island, BC
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    Originally posted by LaurenStephens
    ive been saying the same thing for months, glad someone else agrees.

    i just rasied my prices yet again. my smallest plan is 11.99 and it goes up from there. seems like the more i raise prices, the more clients i get. do you think im kidding?? it is the truth.

    i think MOST reasonable businesses are suspicious of cheap prices.
    It was the haircut sign that grabbed my attention the other day while driving and got me thinking about how crazy some hosts are to actually be willing to give someone an entire year worth of service for little more than that price.

    I too just raised my bottom end package a couple of bucks in the past few days, I only added it a couple of months back as a test to see if it would sell, it hasn't done that well so up the price goes to see if that helps, I won't go the other way and lower it further though as I have no intention of supporting clients for a year for little or no income.

    I've had clients use $10/month in toll-free support calls, I'd be crazy to offer $2/month accounts. You can tell them not to use toll-free for support but that hardly works well, they'll do it anyway, I even have people in the local calling area calling my toll-free line instead of the local number which would cost neither of us anything.

    I sleep much better at night with servers that aren't overworked and overcrowded, I've dropped server admin clients who overcrowded their servers because I wasn't willing to put up with the extra pages that come in because of it, especially when most of those happen at 4AM when the server chokes during stats updates or backups.
    Dynanet Network Services - 206-607-9075
    We Do Hosting - Established May 2001
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  24. #74
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    Jan 2003
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    1,255
    Too many people, especially kids who don't have a clue what they're doing, seem to think that they can get into the hosting industry and that by promising everything for nothing they can be the leader and get rich quick.

    Unfortunately this is not reality. The web hosting industry, although probably one of the easier industries to get started in, is an extremely difficult one to look at if you intend to run a long-term, profitable and reputable business.

    It seems that low cost reseller packages offering unlimited (not possible) resources and using shady advertising techniques are the source of most of the problems.

    Although I hate to say it, it would appear that an awful lot of the people that do it though, are actually just influenced by WHT and other simillar places - why I don't know, because all that they reas is that they can't do it in the long-run. Maybe people want to prove us wrong? But they don't. They come back within a few weeks with things such as:

    'I have no customers, ow do I get some?'

    'Selling my hosting company with no customers'

    And even resorting to spamming the boards, pretending to be their happy but non-existent customers to try and get people to sign up through word-of-mouth. Problem is, most of these people are so thick, they're easy to catch out.

    Just my opinion

  25. #75
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    Originally posted by MTBill
    Unfortunately this is not reality. The web hosting industry, although probably one of the easier industries to get started in, is an extremely difficult one to look at if you intend to run a long-term, profitable and reputable business.
    Exactly. I got my own company started thanks to help with some government business training, I had just been laid off from a job with a hosting company, a really sad story where in the end I told the guy to let me go so he could save his company, his overhead was out of control as he opted for large ocean front office, a T1 line, a few staff members, etc. This was a few years back mind you when hosts were charging real money because they needed real network connections and locations to host servers, colo and hardware rental wasn't around much.

    I learned a lot at that job about the hosting industry and what types of people to steer clear offl. I saw early on these types of people coming, they were the "marketeers" as I liked to call them, people with no real technical skills but all the sales jargon in the world, some could sell snow to eskimos. It was these types that ended up killing that last employers business, the owner was giving one guy 50% of the gross while that guy had zero of the overhead associated with running a fully staffed operation.

    I saw these types screw this poor guy over time and time again, we would come up with ideas and the tech needed to implement them and then those guys would either take more money than us or in some cases would just outright steal the idea and do it elsewhere taking all the money and of course undercutting everyone.

    When I finally asked my employer to let me go the company was almost toast, I told them to get things together again, I gave the owner some advice about dumping the marketeers who were taking too much of the pie and offered my help anytime he needed it, within months he could no longer draw an income to support his family (wife and 3 kids).

    In the end the owner was found dead in the basement of the office building, he had killed himself by carbon monoxide in his truck.

    Needless to say my business plan was meticulously drawn out and thought through, I was put through a few classes to help do so and much of what they taught was to not get caught up in the price war game as it is rarely those who are the lowest priced that survive in the end. My old job taught me that I should be very wary of who I partner with, it taught me that keeping overhead low is a smart thing to do, indeed if you have little local business you have zero need for an office downtown. You can save that until you are large enough to open your own datacenter.

    The moral here, don't sell yourself short I guess, if you want customers you need to provide excellent service, you also need to charge enough money to stay afloat and that means more than just recovering the cost of the server, it means paying your rent/mortgage, putting food on the table and if you're lucky being able to buy extras once in a while. You will be much more confortable with less clients on a server than having to stuff 300+ just to recover your cost on it.

    I was even able to hire one of the employees from that old job, working from home she made more than she did working at the office too, go figure
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