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  1. #1
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    * Simply too many re-sellers...

    Howdy folks,

    I'm going to express my opinion here about the general web hosting re-sale industry at the moment.

    For the record, I work for a very reputable hosting company in the UK, and have 5 years sales consultancy experience in this and similar industries....so I kinda know what i'm talking about. ;-) I also host and design websites as a sidetrack too...and have been for many years.

    <rant>

    I've been reading these forums and watching the industry for some time, and I really cannot beleive the volume of 'web-hosts' that have appeared, and consistently keep appearing. The company that I work for supplies VPS solutions to web designers and developers....we support re-sellers 100% and certainly don't take on hundreds of new clients daily....more like a dozen quality clients a day.

    It amazes me that there are induviduals, or indeed groups of induviduals out there (and the US seems to be the main breeding ground) that think that web hosting re-sale can bring in the cash by the bucket-load simply by throwing a few seemingly attractive packages together without consideration for quality support or other added value services/features.

    It seems that each week, a number of posters on the forum report that 'XYZ have gone bust', 'where is ABC?'...and 'don't deal with 123!'. So...all we hear is customers being ripped off, poor service delivery, awful technical support and lots of broken promises with no value for money. It is these 'shoddy' re-sellers (and a certain number of 'top tier' providers as well to be fair) that tarnish the industry...and at this stage credit needs to be given to those successfully delivering quality services....many of whom I see posting on this forum.

    When I think of re-sellers in the US and to a certain extent in the UK and Europe (apologies if I offend a few of you here...), all I get are images of:

    - Template websites, not designed
    - Misleading marketing speak
    - False support/uptime promises
    - and so on and so forth...

    There are probably a selection of these bandits that have actually made a their $$$$$ already, and somehow are earning a very good living; but just think how much bigger they would become if they thought about the service they deliver, and invested in improvements. We would see dozens of re-sellers becoming 'top tier' providers, buying rackspace and co-locating lots of dedicated servers, buying bandwidth, hiring more support.....generally growing and evolving which one would hope would lead to a better service for their clients.

    At the end of the day the 'top tier' providers make a lot of money out of this, and it's good for the economy as the industry keeps growing...but I feel that the growth in client dissatisfaction and the bad reputation it produces takes the shine off.

    In an ideal world, web-host wannabees local to each other would join forces, combine funds and technical support and work together for the greater good of their clients....unfortunately that is a dream for the end users, and i'd better pinch myself quickly.

    </rant>

    Comments appreciated folks, apologies if it sounds a little anti-US-hosting, it's just that we see a lot more of it across the water from the UK....yeah that little country near europe. ;-)

    Dave
    ======================================
    Think about the end user, think about your credibility.
    ======================================

  2. #2
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    I think it is so true so many people are FAKE and just want quick cash they really dont care about the customer. But its not just US people I would have to disagree with that. I work for a Web Hosting / Web Design company and I feel we are GREAT to our customers we even give great support so dont just say its US people thats very unfair.
    Charles R. Wieland
    Chief Technical Officer
    Phima Group, LLC
    http://www.phimagroup.com

  3. #3
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    My article does lean more towards the US, admitedly, it's not my intent to single you guys out however. It happens in europe a lot, but in the US it just happens a lot more.

    Like I said in my rant, credit is given to the hard working guys like yourself who use these forums ;-)

    Dave

  4. #4
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    I have to agree with you Dave .. It is hard to beleave how many bad hosts are listed in these forums ussually I stay quiet as I am sure you have noticed by my post count and such but this issue makes me want to post.

    The primary problem as I can see fall within the new hosts that offer everything under the moon for $1! Then you see the customers wanting to know why thier service is slow / down.

    Little advice pay the few extra $ get a dependable host!
    DSL WebHosting Solutions
    Fast Affordable WebHosting Solutions
    24/7/365 Support

  5. #5
    Greetings:

    Iím told there are 10,000 to 15,000 web hosting providers just in the U.S. alone.

    I would not doubt that well over 50% (possibly over 75%) are resellers.

    Being a reseller is not a bad thing; thatís how we started out until we got large enough to rent dedicated servers, and then blessed again by God with growth that we now co-locate our servers.

    However, I think there are several problems with what is happening in the industry.

    ďThere are probably a selection of these bandits that have actually made a their $$$$$Ē

    This is problem number one.

    The sad part is that unless you work at hosting for years or just plain bilk people (which Iím sure that happens), you can often make a lot more money doing anything but hosting including services related to hosting.

    Unfortunately a lot of people donít do their homework; they just see low start up costs, and think everyone on-line is making money, why canít they?

    Problem number two is the low start up cost and almost no barrier to entry.

    Last month a gentlemen from our Christian businessmenís group shared how they started up their manufacturing business making drawer boxes for the (house; mainly kitchen) cabinet industry.

    They had to get a loan, all three partners had to mortgage their houses (three mortgages) just to start. The one piece of equipment Ė which they bought used at an auction Ė ran well over $100,000.

    Here people are renting servers from under $50 to $150 per month thinking they can cram as many sites on it as they please, can play video games and eat pizza while they provide support making oodles of money.

    Customers get burnt Ė how many posts have you seen in WHT about # of times switching providers et all Ė and, what is even sadder is that a number of customers donít learnÖ. They think some one can provide awesome service and up time at these (very low prices); after all, there are 10,000+ providers offering it at that price.

    Sigh.

    Thank you.
    ---
    Peter M. Abraham
    LinkedIn Profile

  6. #6
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    Thats right. Customers should be more, more carefull.

  7. #7
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    I quite agree that end users need to do their homework. It's a shame that their isn't an independant body that can regulate web hosting companies in the respectiive countries. I think that there is a lack of good informative sources, however if the end users aren't going to research their hosting company, then i'm 100% sure they won't take the time to seek out advice.

    A good idea would be to have a code of conduct that all hosting companies abide by, and if I was really in dreamland I would push for the top tier hosting companies to take more responsiblity and generally have some form of vetting in place, like a re-seller application of some sort....but this would have an effect on revenue and as such would probably be rejected.

    Dave

  8. #8
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    Well the thing is end users can only believe what they are told or what they read, and also the second fact is people are cheap they believe that cheap is the way to go so they see someone advertising 2 GB storage and unlimited bandwidth for 2.99/mo they jump on it without any question its they way the world is everyone wants cheap and not quality or they would be fine. If customers took the time to look into things before jumping into not many people would get ripped off
    Charles R. Wieland
    Chief Technical Officer
    Phima Group, LLC
    http://www.phimagroup.com

  9. #9
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    Little advice pay the few extra $ get a dependable host!
    In reply to DSLWEB:

    That is something the company I work for is trying to push.

    Unfortunately most users looking for web hosting are more concerned about the lowest price than the highest quality; we have standard and mission critical hosting as well as managed dedicated...and our clients understand that they may be paying a little more compared to Joe Bloggs they met in the pub at the weekend, but they are getting far superior service and more tools/features for their money.

    Sometimes you have to pay for quality.

    Dave

  10. #10
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    In the end, (I may get flamed for this, but here I go...) the blame ultimately falls on the customer. In the real world, we understand that if we pay $0.50 for a cup of coffee, it is *usually* not as good as the coffee that we pay $5 a cup. Why that knowledge does not translate into an understanding of 'you get what you pay for' on the Internet is quite a mystery in itself. Perhaps people think that since the Internet is free (which it technically is), then the services on it must be free or dirt-cheap too. So they ask for the cheapest most of the time. Everyone loves a good bargain

    Now, the problem is that no one actually makes the effort to educate these people that cheap hosting does not equals to good service. You may agree that this is a very "duh!" type of knowledge, but judging from the number of people who come to the boards asking for the moon for $10 a year, it does not appear to be so.

    How much does a reseller account set you back these days? $5 a month? $10 a month? Given the low prices, some people just look at these accounts and go - "Oh hey - I can sell hosting! All I have to do is split my $10 a month package into 5 packages instead, and I'll make $50 a month! Whoa!"

    Initially, the market holds because these resellers are small in numbers, but after a while everyone wants to get into the game and as a result, you get tons of resellers trying to sell that same $10 package for $50. Then people start undercutting each other, prices fall, customers get the impression that they can get the moon cheaply and when these resellers bottom-out, they leave clients in the lurch.

    But then! Imagine - another new lot of resellers have surfaced because again, they think they can sell the $10 for $50 like their predecessor. Another new batch of hosting newbies come along thinking that they can get the world for free, and the cycle repeats itself again and again. Only this time, with reseller accounts becoming cheaper, everyone gets into the game and as a result, undercutting takes place and people start cutting back on services, uptime, etc...

    You get my point.

    Only a sensible host will set a sensible price, AND educate their clients that cheap does not = good service. But I still don't see many, if any hosts at all, performing such a service.

    Maybe someone should write up a comprehensive 'Hosting 101' for people who are about to purchasing hosting, and then we can get hosts to link to it so less people get burnt, the market won't bottom out, and everyone starts paying for quality instead

  11. #11
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    Since there is no rule or global governing body for the webhosting industry that would restrict new companies or enforce certain amount of capital and experience to start-up it really is not much problem for a person to try out the webhosting industry. Thats why we see so many wannabe hosts out-there who have no clue whatsoever about the platforms, servers they are hosting and think that having a website and few catchy graphics would bring in profits.

    I think in the future some sort of International Governing Web Hosting body should come into place, only then we will see a reduction in temporary hosts.

    My 50 cents

  12. #12
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    Vote For ME!!!
    Charles R. Wieland
    Chief Technical Officer
    Phima Group, LLC
    http://www.phimagroup.com

  13. #13
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    I simply can't agree with any point that lays 100% blame on the customer, the end user does need to take some of the blame.....but as a counterpoint I would say that modern businesses need to improve and be much more clear about the services they are offering.

    With regards to the

    Now, the problem is that no one actually makes the effort to educate these people that cheap hosting does not equals to good service.
    How exactly can we educate the masses? It's impossible, all we can do is join together as an industry and promote the information our prospective clients needs. Perhaps some kind of web hosting certification is needed, which leads back to my point about independant regulation. A series of checks that leads to a 'certified web hoster' status with accompanying logo....if you visit a web host that doesn't have certification...then don't bother.

    I think protecting the rights of the end user needs to be looked at in particular, which again strengethens what i'm suggesting.

    Maybe someone should write up a comprehensive 'Hosting 101' for people who are about to purchasing hosting, and then we can get hosts to link to it so less people get burnt, the market won't bottom out, and everyone starts paying for quality instead
    Now that is an idea.

  14. #14
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    Thats a great idea like a star or something that says Web Hosting Certified by ... maybe like web hosting talk or something like that
    Charles R. Wieland
    Chief Technical Officer
    Phima Group, LLC
    http://www.phimagroup.com

  15. #15
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    Charles, that is a good evolution of the idea!

    Can anyone from the WHT team comment? I think the power that this forum holds would put you guys in a great position to kick start this.

    I'd be happy to get involved, of course. ;-)

    Anyone else have an opinion on this?

    Dave

    Added: From commercial POV, maybe the WHT could generate funds by charging a reasonable fee for vetting each host? I'm sure most decent hosting companies would jump at the chance.

  16. #16
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    Well, I certainly enjoy the growth of "Host Re-sellers". I do not see this as in all a bad thing, becuase Where will resellers get their accounts? From us people. So we are making a profit from that. I don't see whats there to moan about.

    Since we are the people who started it all (growth in resellers). We decided to sell resellers accounts and make it easy for people to set up a hosting company. You may ask why we did that. But there is only one true reason, to make more money.

  17. #17
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    Yes I would help in this adventure too.
    Charles R. Wieland
    Chief Technical Officer
    Phima Group, LLC
    http://www.phimagroup.com

  18. #18
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    Originally posted by rocketdave
    I simply can't agree with any point that lays 100% blame on the customer, the end user does need to take some of the blame.....but as a counterpoint I would say that modern businesses need to improve and be much more clear about the services they are offering.
    Hi Rocketdave,

    Nope, I'm not suggesting that customers are 100% to blame. As you can read from my post, customers demand the cheap pricing, and resellers provide the cheap accounts. So it takes 2 hands to clap. But there would never be supply if there is no demand, no?

    So IMHO, the best thing I think right now is to have the old hands of the webhosting industry come together to write up a 'Hosting 101' article, or maybe even buy a domain name and setup a page which gives out approval to sites who do show good business sense (although, as you can imagine, this will be a very subjective judgement).

    Anyone wants to do something like this?

    PS: Don't look at me - I'm just a customer who happens to follow WHT quite a bit

  19. #19
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    nope, im thinking that there are too many resellers solely because there are too many companies who offer RESELLER accounts!

    the companies who offer reseller accounts do nothing whatsoever to "police" the actions of their "clients". for example, if i were running a porn or scam site and it wasnt allowed, you can bet id be shut down, but if i were to open a reseller account and ripped people off you can bet theyd do nothing to me or even a thing to help my clients!

    you can blame those who offer reseller accounts as the ones saturating the market with it.

    yes ive been a reseller before, but that didnt last long! it just doesnt make any sense!
    if you haven't considered chapter 7 bankruptcy, maybe you should.
    eliminate your debt, keep the property you want, most people qualify.
    contrary to popular belief - no attorney is necessary!

  20. #20
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    Originally posted by LaurenStephens
    nope, im thinking that there are too many resellers solely because there are too many companies who offer RESELLER accounts!

    the companies who offer reseller accounts do nothing whatsoever to "police" the actions of their "clients". for example, if i were running a porn or scam site and it wasnt allowed, you can bet id be shut down, but if i were to open a reseller account and ripped people off you can bet theyd do nothing to me or even a thing to help my clients!
    LaurenStephens, I have to disagree with you. Imagine if you sign up to just host a few friends of yours, and your host decides to run a full check on you to make sure that you aren't going to do illegal stuff. And then you have to fax in documents and all that - no thanks! I'd rather go to another less crumbersome host, especially if the customer is a continent away and does not want to go through all that hassle. And who is to say that a reseller that looks good at first doesn't turn around to rip their customers off, or vice-versa?

    And I'm very sure resellers do not appreciate their upline to be in the know of their business practices and especially their customer information - too much danger of the upline just jumping in to steal the business Not that it always happens, but just imagine.

    Overall, I think it will be a very messy system. Ultimately, if you educate the customers to NOT go for impossible deals, resellers will realise that they can't make 'easy money'. Then there will be less overnight resellers like we have today, no?

  21. #21
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    Originally posted by LaurenStephens
    there are too many companies who offer RESELLER accounts!
    And again: no demand = no supply

    Customer demand cheap hosting = Fly-by-night resellers demand reseller accounts = uplines are ultimately profit-oriented and sell more resellers accounts as a result = everyone is simply responding to the chain of demand

  22. #22
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    It's certainly turning into quite an interesting debate.

    I have to say I side with Lauren on this one, as soon as you set yourself up as a top tier hosting company offering flashy re-seller accounts with multiple GB's of space and huge bandwidth quotas, you instantly open up a pandoras box. However this is good business for the top tier host, so naturally this will catch on as it simply makes money which is *obviously* good for the company.

    Policing and generally being responsible? Needed urgently in my opinion. I think that re-sellers simply need to be held accountable in a way that will teach the others how to behave.

    Unfortunately the only way to do this would be to strictly enforce certain things, which really won't happen.

    Everything is really pointing to one of two things to help the problem:

    1) Top tier hosting companies calm down re-seller account sales

    2) We work together for the greater good, for better awareness.

    Only #2 is possible ;-)

    Dave

  23. #23
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    I agree with the WHT star idea - what better way for WHT to get promotion then to have quality hosting companies linking to them?

    I'd certainly want to sign up for such a scheme

    Andrew
    NetHosted - UK based hosting solutions.

  24. #24
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    Greater good will never be achieved if everyone thinks they can get a bigger share of the market by undercutting competitors

    Oh, look - my Economics 'A' levels is resurfacing

  25. #25
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    I'll look into this. ;-)

    Dave

  26. #26
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    Originally posted by code_renegade
    Greater good will never be achieved if everyone thinks they can get a bigger share of the market by undercutting competitors

    Oh, look - my Economics 'A' levels is resurfacing
    That brings up a worrying trait actually - why does every hosting company try and compete on price? Find a niche and compete on quality while charging sensible prices and you'll still be around in the years ahead IMO

    Andrew
    NetHosted - UK based hosting solutions.

  27. #27
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    Cause of all these wannabe resellers dropping thier prices so low that others have to drop thier prices also to do any good business
    Charles R. Wieland
    Chief Technical Officer
    Phima Group, LLC
    http://www.phimagroup.com

  28. #28
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    That brings up a worrying trait actually - why does every hosting company try and compete on price?
    Unfortunatly a lot of the top tier hosting companies have similar connectivity and data centre arrangements, with only small differences between them.

    This means the re-sellers are almost always using a similar infrastructure, and in many cases the same technologies and feature sets.

    The added value tends to come from those who go the extra mile.

    Dave

  29. #29
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    Originally posted by NetHosted-Andrew
    That brings up a worrying trait actually - why does every hosting company try and compete on price? Find a niche and compete on quality while charging sensible prices and you'll still be around in the years ahead IMO
    Hi Andrew,

    I guess this might have to do with the fact that everyone wants the cheapest possible, especially if you're new to web hosting and you think you're getting the same thing no matter where you go. It usually takes a good burn for a client to understand that apparently, the price difference is due to support quality. But even then, there are those who think that they would never need support and as a result, still go for the cheapest.

    So there will always be a market for the cheapest around. Why do people still buy $0.50 coffee even though they can get a better one for slightly more? Because they want the cheapest, that's why

  30. #30
    Originally posted by cwieland
    something that says Web Hosting Certified by ...
    isnt it what it is already done here at

    hostingassured.findmyhosting.com/

  31. #31
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    I think we're trying to certify 'sensible' hosts rather than 'credible' hosts, tchoune

    A sensible host is one who offers good service and is realiable, and offers a price that matches that level of service. So that pretty much cuts out all the guys that say "unlimited" or outrageous offers like "5gb of space and 100gb of bandwidth for OMG $5 a month only!!"

  32. #32
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    That link doesnt work for me.
    Charles R. Wieland
    Chief Technical Officer
    Phima Group, LLC
    http://www.phimagroup.com

  33. #33
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    Originally posted by NetHosted-Andrew
    I agree with the WHT star idea - what better way for WHT to get promotion then to have quality hosting companies linking to them?

    I'd certainly want to sign up for such a scheme

    Andrew
    last time i looked wht didnt need any promotion?
    if you haven't considered chapter 7 bankruptcy, maybe you should.
    eliminate your debt, keep the property you want, most people qualify.
    contrary to popular belief - no attorney is necessary!

  34. #34
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    Originally posted by code_renegade
    Hi Andrew,

    I guess this might have to do with the fact that everyone wants the cheapest possible, especially if you're new to web hosting and you think you're getting the same thing no matter where you go. It usually takes a good burn for a client to understand that apparently, the price difference is due to support quality. But even then, there are those who think that they would never need support and as a result, still go for the cheapest.

    So there will always be a market for the cheapest around. Why do people still buy $0.50 coffee even though they can get a better one for slightly more? Because they want the cheapest, that's why
    True, but why do so many people use RackSpace? It's not because they're cheap is it! They can still succeed by having a reputation for quality and support that's my point - it's a business model that works so why does everyone try and sell their services for $0.50?

    I guess it come back down to a point made earlier - what is about the internet that makes people disregard all the lessons they've learned in life about getting what they've paid for!

    Andrew
    NetHosted - UK based hosting solutions.

  35. #35
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    "No website configured at this address" error.

    In all honesty i'd rather see this coming from the WHT, as they simply have a better reach, more influence and greater credibility.

    Dave

  36. #36
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    Originally posted by LaurenStephens
    last time i looked wht didnt need any promotion?
    Every website needs promotion, especially a business site. Microsoft still advertises, as does Yahoo etc and just about every person on the net would've heard of those two

    Andrew
    NetHosted - UK based hosting solutions.

  37. #37
    Hi,

    there is too many points here, but all ppl talk bad about cheap hosts, all ppl refer to only one point .. cheap host = bad host

    and i do not agree about that, bad host can be expensive host too .. check the forums you will find many bad hosts

    also tier 1 hosts .. how you can define that word?
    is tier 1 host who advertise in every way possible ? or who give %75 of his sale to affiliate so he got more affiliates and become tier 1 ? or who have models pics and testmonials written by a copy proffisional ?

    one day i tried to advertise in BIG host directory, the sales rep. of this directory replied me: "sorry you may make our BIG advertiser angry, our advertiser spend $200 - $300 to get a client and you will harm them" .. they give me $200 bounce in their PPC to keep calm.

    question is .. if i sell for $18/year and tier 1 sell for $100 .. but i keep the whole $18 and he keep $25 after advertising costs .. so what the differance ?

    so beside the price .. how you define GOOD host?

  38. #38
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    Originally posted by code_renegade

    Maybe someone should write up a comprehensive 'Hosting 101' for people who are about to purchasing hosting, and then we can get hosts to link to it so less people get burnt, the market won't bottom out, and everyone starts paying for quality instead
    Dan (who posts here regularly) has had a pretty good stab at a 'Hosting 101' over at;

    http://whreviews.com/

  39. #39
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    Originally posted by NetHosted-Andrew
    True, but why do so many people use RackSpace? It's not because they're cheap is it! They can still succeed by having a reputation for quality and support that's my point - it's a business model that works so why does everyone try and sell their services for $0.50?

    I guess it come back down to a point made earlier - what is about the internet that makes people disregard all the lessons they've learned in life about getting what they've paid for!

    Andrew
    Ah - these are the people that do understand that "you get what you pay for". Unfortunately, these are the minority. The rest are just - "ho-hum - let's look for the cheapest. They're all just spaces in harddrives hosted in multi-million dollar complexes anyway!"

    So at the risk of sounding like I'm nagging - we have to educate consumers on what to look out for in hosting and what NOT to go for.

    Yep, I was wondering about that too - that's why I made that point

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    NetHosted - UK based hosting solutions.

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