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  1. #1
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    * Report:Bush,Rumsfeld &Ashcroft authorised secret system of detention & interrogation.

    http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040524fa_fact

    THE GRAY ZONE
    by SEYMOUR M. HERSH
    How a secret Pentagon program came to Abu Ghraib.

    The roots of the Abu Ghraib prison scandal lie not in the criminal inclinations of a few Army reservists but in a decision, approved last year by Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, to expand a highly secret operation, which had been focussed on the hunt for Al Qaeda, to the interrogation of prisoners in Iraq. Rumsfeld’s decision embittered the American intelligence community, damaged the effectiveness of élite combat units, and hurt America’s prospects in the war on terror.

    _______________________________________________


    http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4989422/

    The Roots of Torture
    The road to Abu Ghraib began after 9/11, when Washington wrote new rules to fight a new kind of war. A NEWSWEEK investigation

    By John Barry, Michael Hirsh and Michael Isikoff
    Newsweek

    May 24 issue - It's not easy to get a member of Congress to stop talking. Much less a room full of them. But as a small group of legislators watched the images flash by in a small, darkened hearing room in the Rayburn Building last week, a sickened silence descended. There were 1,800 slides and several videos, and the show went on for three hours. The nightmarish images showed American soldiers at Abu Ghraib Prison forcing Iraqis to masturbate. American soldiers sexually assaulting Iraqis with chemical light sticks. American soldiers laughing over dead Iraqis whose bodies had been abused and mutilated. There was simply nothing to say. "It was a very subdued walk back to the House floor," said Rep. Jane Harman, the ranking Democrat on the House Intelligence Committee. "People were ashen."


    _______________________________________________


    http://www.ndtv.com

    Monday, May 17, 2004 (New York):

    A leading news magazine has said US President George W Bush, along with Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld and Attorney General John Ashcroft, had signed off a memo on a secret system of detention and interrogation that opened the door for abuses of prisoners at Abu Ghraib prison.



  2. #2
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    its been denied by the administration.


    now I am sure you are going to say sure they deny it - but it is probably true - ok - well then I guess the fake british photos are true too.. oh they arent. yeah - I guess there is precedence that not all that is reported is true and not all that is true gets reported.
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  3. #3
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    Originally posted by sailor
    its been denied by the administration.


    now I am sure you are going to say sure they deny it - but it is probably true - ok - well then I guess the fake british photos are true too.. oh they arent. yeah - I guess there is precedence that not all that is reported is true and not all that is true gets reported.
    The only time that the Bush Administration hasn't denied anything is... when they say they haven't found any WMD yet. I've already become use to them lieing, hell if they start telling me the truth, I'm moving out!

  4. #4
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    Originally posted by sailor
    its been denied by the administration.


    now I am sure you are going to say sure they deny it - but it is probably true - ok - well then I guess the fake british photos are true too.. oh they arent. yeah - I guess there is precedence that not all that is reported is true and not all that is true gets reported.
    Do you always have to bring in another country to prove to yourself that the US never does wrong??...
    ^^ IM WITH STUPID!! ^^

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  5. #5
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    Originally posted by s.h.a.zz.y
    Do you always have to bring in another country to prove to yourself that the US never does wrong??...
    you love to pick at me personally these days.

    well its not working....you are only making me smile.
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  6. #6
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    Originally posted by sailor
    you love to pick at me personally these days.

    well its not working....you are only making me smile.
    But what does the British pictures have to do with anything? The pictures have been found to be false, but the pictures of the American troops are not.

    Whether you want to be closed-minded and believe that America is the "perfect country", you can do so.

  7. #7
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    Originally posted by sailor
    you love to pick at me personally these days.

    well its not working....you are only making me smile.
    lol, pick on you?

    But seriously what did the british troops abuse which has now come across as being a hoax and a setup in Preston, UK got to-do with the original thread?

    I am not saying that british troops have not abused Iraqi, I am sure there are those that have but it had no bearing on this thread and you just used it as a pot shot to say "US could never do that - bush administration is perfecto in the war and handling in Iraq"
    ^^ IM WITH STUPID!! ^^

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  8. #8
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    guys - I think you misunderstood my post - it simply was a comparison that just because a reporter says something does not mean its true any more than just because an administration says something does not mean its true.

    I was not saying brits did anything - I was comparing the false reporting and outright fabrication to show that something reported is not true just because it was reported - and I was not referring to the actual abuses as you all say - I was referring to what was posted her - please reread the article above - that the administration supposedly authorised it all.

    any way - enough said on this one.

    my condolances go to the iraqi people this morning for the criminal assasination of their governing council president. I hope the scum that did it are captured and punished or killed if they resist.
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  9. #9
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    I can't find a link now, but the prissioner with the chain, treated like a dog, is a normal criminal, he was accused of rape.

    I'm not saying that he was good or bad, but soldiers can't use the excuse of "national security" on this case.
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  10. #10
    Originally posted by Jedito
    I can't find a link now, but the prissioner with the chain, treated like a dog, is a normal criminal, he was accused of rape.

    I'm not saying that he was good or bad, but soldiers can't use the excuse of "national security" on this case.
    Maybe thats why he has the word "rapeist" written across his leg?

  11. #11
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    Oh yeah, probably
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  12. #12
    Originally posted by Jedito
    Oh yeah, probably
    Let me ask you this jedito, what punishment should a rapeist get?

  13. #13
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    To be in jail, why? do you think that is good to have fun with a rapeist and torture him?

    I'm against death penalty, just in case.
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  14. #14
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    It seems like sailor is always defending Bush and his administration no matter what they do...

    Watch... when they truly do uncover something incredible, sailor will be there first to defend Bush and call the media scandalous and liars.

  15. #15
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    Originally posted by dk2
    Let me ask you this jedito, what punishment should a rapeist get?
    What does that have to do with anything? The point is that most of the prisoners at Abu Ghraib are either there for typical crimes, or were simply picked up in military sweeps of targeted trouble areas. Estimates have run as high as that 70% are innocent of any crimes, but were picked up to confirm their identities and make sure that they weren't known insurgents. That, in fact, accounts for most of the few hundred that were released last week.

    So how that ties in with the current news: the contention is that people in the Bush administration approved a program of aggressive interrogation for the Al Quaida prisoners at Guantanamo. Here's where that distinction comes into play: the people being confined there are all suspected of having ties to that organization, and so were being interrogated in a seemingly sensible attempt to get information about that organziation's activities. That is, there's an arguably defensible national security interest at stake there that is not at stake at Abu Ghraib.

    So, why did the same tactics come to be used at that prison (and presumably at the other prisons the US is running in Iraq even though new reports so far are focusing on Abu Ghraib)? The contention is that US officials, frustrated by the failure to get information about "weapons of mass destruction" and the like decided to turn up the heat. They were more successful in getting information at Guantanamo than at Abu Ghraib, so rather than believe that the people being held in Iraq didn't have the information they wanted, they tried the same techniques that had succeeded elsewhere.

    I'm not saying, it should be clear, that's what happened, because I don't know (they won't let me into those Pentagon briefings for some reason). But that's the contention of Hersh's report and of most of the analysis of it.
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  16. #16
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    what if there was a story going across the news about an affair with the president and an intern, oh boy i dont know what silly would it be to see stuff come around the news again 'i did not have.... ah yea whatever
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  17. #17
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    What does that have to do with anything? The point is that most of the prisoners at Abu Ghraib are either there for typical crimes, or were simply picked up in military sweeps of targeted trouble areas. Estimates have run as high as that 70% are innocent of any crimes, but were picked up to confirm their identities and make sure that they weren't known insurgents. That, in fact, accounts for most of the few hundred that were released last week.

    So how that ties in with the current news: the contention is that people in the Bush administration approved a program of aggressive interrogation for the Al Quaida prisoners at Guantanamo. Here's where that distinction comes into play: the people being confined there are all suspected of having ties to that organization, and so were being interrogated in a seemingly sensible attempt to get information about that organziation's activities. That is, there's an arguably defensible national security interest at stake there that is not at stake at Abu Ghraib.

    So, why did the same tactics come to be used at that prison (and presumably at the other prisons the US is running in Iraq even though new reports so far are focusing on Abu Ghraib)? The contention is that US officials, frustrated by the failure to get information about "weapons of mass destruction" and the like decided to turn up the heat. They were more successful in getting information at Guantanamo than at Abu Ghraib, so rather than believe that the people being held in Iraq didn't have the information they wanted, they tried the same techniques that had succeeded elsewhere.

    I'm not saying, it should be clear, that's what happened, because I don't know (they won't let me into those Pentagon briefings for some reason). But that's the contention of Hersh's report and of most of the analysis of it.
    That's no excuse whatsoever for the treatment that the innocent Iraqi civilians endured at the prison, or do you think it is?

    Plus, military sweeps should not be conducted in such a large radius that 70 percent of all arrested individuals are innocent!

    This is not the American way, and I don't even agree with their intention of extracting information from these 'insurgents'.

  18. #18
    Regardless of what those people were in jail for... Its still wrong..

    You don't see prison guards doing that to criminals in our prisons in the US.. so why is it ok to do it to Non-American Citizens..

    I really don't see why people want Bush back in office, when he has done more to put us in harm than to protect us from it.

    Heh, I bet alot of Bush voters would kiss this man's feet, because they think you should respect and worship the President, when the President is making dumb decisions. How much you want to bet Bush would kill you just to put another 1.5 million dollars in his family bank account.
    Money is the root of all evil. So if you don't want to go crazy, give it all to me

  19. #19
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    I really don't see why people want Bush back in office, when he has done more to put us in harm than to protect us from it.

    Heh, I bet alot of Bush voters would kiss this man's feet, because they think you should respect and worship the President, when the President is making dumb decisions. How much you want to bet Bush would kill you just to put another 1.5 million dollars in his family bank account.
    Exactly my thoughts.

    Although Kerry seems like a terrible leader and politician (populist anyone?), Bush is doing so much harm to our economy, soldiers, morale, foreign relations, national security, and even our basic rights and freedoms, that even I, as probably a moderate Republican, cannot say I like Bush very much.

  20. #20
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    Originally posted by SniperDevil
    That's no excuse whatsoever for the treatment that the innocent Iraqi civilians endured at the prison, or do you think it is?
    Do you see anything in my post that you quoted that implies that I think that? What I did was summarize what these reports are saying -- mostly because I don't think, based on what's being posted, that many of the people who are commenting have bothered to actually read any of it.

    indeed.
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  21. #21
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    Do you see anything in my post that you quoted that implies that I think that? What I did was summarize what these reports are saying -- mostly because I don't think, based on what's being posted, that many of the people who are commenting have bothered to actually read any of it.
    Your post seemed to have a bias against these prisoners, and the military's 'sweep' of certain areas.

    An example:

    Estimates have run as high as that 70% are innocent of any crimes, but were picked up to confirm their identities and make sure that they weren't known insurgents.
    So it takes more than half a year to confirm people's identities?

  22. #22
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    Originally posted by SniperDevil
    An example:
    Estimates have run as high as that 70% are innocent of any crimes, but were picked up to confirm their identities and make sure that they weren't known insurgents.

    So it takes more than half a year to confirm people's identities?
    Sheesh. Seems pretty clear to me that I was saying that's what's been reported, not that it's what I think should be done.

    So if I mentioned that there was a bank robbery reported down the street today, would you think I was saying it's OK to rob banks?
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  23. #23
    It seemed like you were trying to justify what they did by giving a big long story about some kind of techniques.. It was wrong point blank.
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  24. #24
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    Originally posted by JWise
    It seemed like you were trying to justify what they did by giving a big long story about some kind of techniques..
    OK. Well, what I was trying to do was to summarize the facts as they've been laid out in these recent reports and how they're being interpreted, without expressing any opinions. Part of that included mentioning how the people making the decisions in question justified them, at least among themselves.

    But since it's pretty rare to see a post here in a thread on this kind of topic without a clear agenda and a lot of ranting, I can see how taking that approach was just asking to be misinterpreted.
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  25. #25
    Originally posted by SniperDevil

    Plus, military sweeps should not be conducted in such a large radius that 70 percent of all arrested individuals are innocent!
    Did you know that over half the rapes in the United States aren't reported?

    Whats my point with that statement? It is a made up statistic, if over half the rape in the United States isn't reported then how do we know that? Maybe because some of the women in the study wanted to feel pitty so they claimed they had been raped?

    Okay now back to the topic at hand and I'll end this with a good quote:

    There are three types of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics. - Mark Twain

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