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  1. #1
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    Eco-Friendly Fuel: Anyone concerned?

    I ask you...

    A recent topic here had me wondering how eco-friendly other countries were becoming in light of recent fuel price increases, environmental problems etc.

    In the UK at least, I know a number of people who have had cars converted to LPG, Liquid Petroleum Gas, which is apparently a lot more environmentally friendly, around 40% cheaper, quieter and available in numerous UK filling stations (namely BP).

    To anyone in the UK, are you thinking of converting your current car or purchasing your next car to be dual-fuel powered? That is to say powered by both LPG and Petrol?

    I'd be interested in hearing peoples reasons for either argument, whether they are remaining with petrol powered cars, or converting to an LPG powered car. I'd also be interested in hearing anything people have to say with regards to the future of LPG... is it a viable solution for the future? Do any other countries have similar programs? If not... what are your plans, for surely petrol cannot be a realistic permanent solution?
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  2. #2
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    I don't drive, i take trains [unless someone wants to give me a lift that is] or i walk.

    I am aware of LPG and its benefits but i'm currently lobbying on behalf of the hybrid electric/petrol engine with people i kknow who are buying cars if possible for them.

    There is also the engine powered by the greener fuel "veggie oil" and it is exactly what it sounds.

    If you don't want to go that far there is that BP Ultimate petrol, now i have no direct knowledge of it as far as i can remember although it is pitched as vastly more efficient and eco friendly with less damagin emissions.

    Back to LPG, i've heard that the modifications necessary for your car or van or whatever aren't too expensive.

    Critic,
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  3. #3
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    Originally posted by Critic
    I am aware of LPG and its benefits but i'm currently lobbying on behalf of the hybrid electric/petrol engine with people i kknow who are buying cars if possible for them.
    The electric engine... aren't there considerable disadvantages with regards to the performance? From my understanding of LPG, the impact on performance isn't too considerable but I've yet to see an electric car come close to matching a petrol powered car?

    There is also the engine powered by the greener fuel "veggie oil" and it is exactly what it sounds.
    Now that is interesting... something I've not even heard.

    Some quick reseearch pulled up the following, which makes for an interesting read:

    http://www.pistonheads.com/doc.asp?c=104&i=6545

    If you don't want to go that far there is that BP Ultimate petrol, now i have no direct knowledge of it as far as i can remember although it is pitched as vastly more efficient and eco friendly with less damagin emissions.
    Yes I have heard of this, although from what I have seen it is not a very cost-effective alternative. Naturally though there is no cost of conversion to have to go through... which is a saving. I guess it ultimately rests on what you see as being a viable solution for the future, as the price of BP Ultimate must surely have to increase as the price of crude oil rises.

    Back to LPG, i've heard that the modifications necessary for your car or van or whatever aren't too expensive.


    Yep, around �1000 for the modifications to LPG so I hear, so you're talking under $2000 USD. Although the question of whether that would be an attractive propostion to most people outside the UK is another question, as sadly I would think most people, wherever they are from, are primarily motivated by price, and even with fuel prices being relatively high in the UK, by comparison it is still very affordable in other parts of the world in despite of its short supply.
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  4. #4
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    Gas engines give more power per weight.

    What electric motors have is torque.

    It would be hard to make any electric car go fast enough.


  5. #5
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    KualoJo and webmultitude

    Current technology in pwer cells could be better but advances are on the horizon.

    However, as things stand now i was referring to developments such as the Toyota Prius and the Lexus RX400h.

    Veggie Oil converters cost around £300-£400 from what i heard last week.

    LPG is a necessary/good advance when it comes to the fuel that is availbable to the public, however the long term future of this planet in transportation and daily life rests with producing more efficient electric power. [That is my view of course]

    Critic,
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  6. #6
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    Not particularly, still waiting for them to come out with a truck that is 'eco friendly' in one way or another that can pull any decent amount of weight..
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  7. #7
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    Originally posted by interactive
    Not particularly, still waiting for them to come out with a truck that is 'eco friendly' in one way or another that can pull any decent amount of weight..
    Actually, I don't see why they don't use electric. Gobs of torque at zero RPM.

    The Prius really is an advancement. The whole idea of using the alternator to brake is great and should be used more.

  8. #8
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    Originally posted by webmultitude
    Actually, I don't see why they don't use electric. Tons of torque at zero RPM.

    The Prius really is an advancement. The whole idea of using the alternator to brake is great and should be used more.
    Ya, but think about the bank of batteries you'd have to have as it would draw a ton of current...
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  9. #9
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    Originally posted by interactive
    Ya, but think about the bank of batteries you'd have to have as it would draw a ton of current...
    Now Lithium Polymer batteries are becoming more popular in RC, so I'd imagine them making their way to automobiles.

    But the alternator idea taken from the Prius... Could just make electric cars come true.

  10. #10
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    Originally posted by Critic
    KualoJo and webmultitude

    Veggie Oil converters cost around £300-£400 from what i heard last week.
    You can actually create biodiesel from vegetable oil quite easily using lye and methanol or ethanol using a very simple process to remove the impurities and glycerine (byproduct is soap that you can use!). The resulting fuel can be poured straight into a regular diesel engine without modification as far as I know. The original diesel engine was actually designed to run on vegetable oil (or peanut oil) rather than regular diesel (or so I'm told).

    I know if you want to use vegetable oil straight without processing it you need a second tank and some way of warming it up, but you can probably do that much cheaper if you diy.

    The main thing holding back use of vegetable oil fuel seems to be all the beaurocracy and taxes in this country. That's why I always laugh when I see the government upping the taxes on petrol every year and claiming it's part of some environmental policy, when they could significantly reduce polution and our dependance on oil by simply lowering (or doing away with) the taxes on biodiesel and make it easier for people to use it rather than taxing the hell out of it, and arresting anyone who doesn't have the necessary permits to use/make it.

  11. #11
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    Originally posted by EthicalEpi

    I know if you want to use vegetable oil straight without processing it you need a second tank and some way of warming it up, but you can probably do that much cheaper if you diy.
    That's what glow plugs are for .

    Filtering would be a bigger problem, IMHO.
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  12. #12
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    Glow plugs? What are they?

    If you're using old used oil, I guess you'd need to filter it before you put it in the tank. Perhaps this is what critic is talking about. Some sort of all-in one system that lets you pour old oil straight in or something.

    Biodiesel seems like the best option to me because its cheap to make and you don't need any kit to convert your car as far as I know. You just pour it into your regular fuel tank. Ofcourse the downside seems to be that you have to use potentially flamable and corrosive chemicals to make it, but if you're careful I can't see it would be a big problem.

  13. #13
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    In India many people use LPG and CNG as an alternative fuel. The cost saving is huge especially for motorists clocking a lot of distance daily. In many states it has become mandatory for taxis to switch to LPG/CNG. Even manufacturers have started to bring out factory fitted models to run on these fuels. There are special refuel stations where one can drive into and get a refill of the tanks. This is lot more convenient than having to change the cylinders. It costs about 15000 Rupees [or about $ 300] for a reliable LPG regulator kit.

    There are issues concerning its safety but actually there is very little difference between a petrol tank or a gas cylinder in terms of safety. The cylinders are not under high pressure and do not explode on their own. However one problem is in case of a leak the gas will not dissipate easily in closed spaces like the engine compartment or the boot of a car. This can lead to an explosion sometimes when the car is stationary and the leaked gas is ignited by a faulty electrical connection. In the case of liquid petrol it will flow away and evoporate. The leak will also be visible whereas in the case of gas it will not be easy to notice the leak. It is for this reason the gas is laced with a strong smelling additive otherwise the gas is odourless and colorless.

  14. #14
    the conversion to natural gas only makes sense in countries with high (er than american) gasoline prices and cheap natural gas. it is practical for mass manufactured, national car models since the cars need to be recertified and retested with the converted engine. lpg wears the engine out faster. you should under no circumstances be allowed to park the car in a confined space, such as a parking garage. that is the law in all the countries i have seen this deployed in.

    saving the environment sounds dandy; i, however, prefer that my car put out the hp and torque i expect of it and no less. fast cars with fast drivers are good - we help keep the hapless-deer-running-across-highway population low.

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  15. #15
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    my dads care runs on both LPG and Petrol

  16. #16
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    here in halifax nova scotia they have begun using a mix of fish oil and petrol. apparently its pretty amazing and cheap. also uses a waste product (fish oil) for a daily use which of course is good. the entire metro transit system uses it.
    Brian Larter

  17. #17
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    Originally posted by EthicalEpi
    Glow plugs? What are they?

    If you're using old used oil, I guess you'd need to filter it before you put it in the tank. Perhaps this is what critic is talking about. Some sort of all-in one system that lets you pour old oil straight in or something.

    Biodiesel seems like the best option to me because its cheap to make and you don't need any kit to convert your car as far as I know. You just pour it into your regular fuel tank. Ofcourse the downside seems to be that you have to use potentially flamable and corrosive chemicals to make it, but if you're careful I can't see it would be a big problem.
    Glow plugs heat up the diesel before it goes through the injectors and into the cylinder. Every diesel has to have them, because for diesel to combust you need a lot of pressure (400PSI+) and hot diesel..
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  18. #18
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    Originally posted by interactive
    Glow plugs heat up the diesel before it goes through the injectors and into the cylinder. Every diesel has to have them, because for diesel to combust you need a lot of pressure (400PSI+) and hot diesel..
    Ah... I didn't know that.

    I think you still need an extra tank if you're using neat unprocessed oil to warm it up before it gets to that stage. You need to start the engine on regular diesel or bio diesel then switch to the hot vegetable oil supply once the car is started.

    I haven't actually tried this myself as I don't drive, just read about it. Seems pretty straightforward though and making biodiesel (so you don't have to bother with the second fuel tank) looked quite easy..

    For anyone who might be interested in giving this a go I can recommend the book 'from the fryer to the fuel tank' by Joshua Tickell (that's the one that I read and it's full of interesting stuff, including diagrams and instructions for diy).

  19. #19
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    If only we could harness all that hot air gas from the politicians......

  20. #20
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    hydrogen is the cleanest so far - it produces dihydrogen oxide as its main pollutant which will kill you if you inhale it - but most of you will not inhale.

    I also understand that brazil is huge in using ethanol as a fuel already.

    I wonder if their car exhaust smells like budweiser farts?
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  21. #21
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    Originally posted by sailor
    I also understand that brazil is huge in using ethanol as a fuel already.

    I wonder if their car exhaust smells like budweiser farts?
    LOL

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