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  1. #1
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    Question why so many host sell php/linux/mysql?

    so many of you are offering the samething LAMP(Linux/Apache/MySql/PHP) and all your price are very close.

    beside customer service as your edge. how different are you from the rest. do you guy ever think about offering different platform like windows/iis/mssql/asp.net or linux/apache/mysql/java(jboss)

    how about coldfusion? anyone offer coldfusion hosting?

  2. #2
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    We've found that the costs associated with running a Windows platform are not worth the returns.
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  3. #3
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    Maybe that's due to the main control panel software packaging all of these in an easy to manage bundle.

    Also, it's a good solid combination that works well and the customer wants it :-)

  4. #4
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    Originally posted by bqinternet
    We've found that the costs associated with running a Windows platform are not worth the returns.
    really? even with scale down Win2003 web edition. does the cost still outweight profit. just wondering.

  5. #5
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    Originally posted by jt2377
    really? even with scale down Win2003 web edition. does the cost still outweight profit. just wondering.
    The actual licensing isn't the real issue. It's the administration and security issues which cause problems. My company prefers to use FreeBSD servers... we set them up, let them run 24x7 for years at a time by themselves without a reboot, and don't really touch them except to patch Apache and OpenSSH every once in a while.
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  6. #6

    Re: why so many host sell php/linux/mysql?

    Originally posted by jt2377
    ..beside customer service as your edge...
    I just thought I would comment on this, being that you pass it off so easily. This is a BIG edge. At any give moment, in the main forums, there are a good 15-30% of the topics complaining about a certain host. 90% of those happen to be complaining abuot service. When you have a lot of competition, Nothing sells better than service.
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  7. #7
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    PHP is quickly becoming on of the most popular languages, and it only works with Linux (very little with Windows). There is one reason for LAMP.

    Another reason, mainly larger companies use Windows platform servers, and smaller companies stick with Linux. This is because the bigger companies use the "real stuff", like .NET, VB, MsSQL, etc.

    These are just the trends I've noticed.

  8. #8
    Originally posted by bqinternet
    The actual licensing isn't the real issue. It's the administration and security issues which cause problems. My company prefers to use FreeBSD servers... we set them up, let them run 24x7 for years at a time by themselves without a reboot, and don't really touch them except to patch Apache and OpenSSH every once in a while.
    Windows 2003 Server is much better than its predecessors. I've been running my box at Server Matrix since December of last year. The only reboots (two that I remember) were for patches. I believe I've only had about 7 minutes of aggregate downtime.

    Justin

  9. #9
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    The reason it's offered so much, is that there is a large market for it. PHP is very popular language, and Apache is the widest used web server.

  10. #10
    Its offered because it works. Period.

    There are alot of scripts that run on php, mysql is efficent on linux, and apache is a popular free http server.

  11. #11
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    Originally posted by Rahil
    ... it only works with Linux (very little with Windows).
    PHP on windows works fine for me. What kind of problems have you had running PHP on Windows?

  12. #12
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    Originally posted by alpha
    PHP on windows works fine for me. What kind of problems have you had running PHP on Windows?
    Never tried PHP on Windows, I've just heard things. Anyway, PHP is designed for, and runs best with Linux.

  13. #13
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    This doesn't necessarily apply to all hosts who offer LAMP, but this configuration is widely used and relatively well supported, both by the community and by the control panels. Some control panels go a little further and do offer pluses like Tomcat, but even then, most hosts don't offer those extras. I think that this is because not very many know much about Java or let alone ColdFusion. A lot more know ASP and PHP. I'm not sure about how the .NET framework will catch on, but I do know some people who hate it just because they don't like OOP.

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  14. #14
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    www.cfdynamics.com they offer cold fusion hosting

    www.experthost.com they too! offer it

  15. #15
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    Re: why so many host sell php/linux/mysql?

    Originally posted by jt2377
    so many of you are offering the samething LAMP(Linux/Apache/MySql/PHP) and all your price are very close.

    beside customer service as your edge. how different are you from the rest. do you guy ever think about offering different platform like windows/iis/mssql/asp.net or linux/apache/mysql/java(jboss)

    how about coldfusion? anyone offer coldfusion hosting?
    Most hosts offer linux accounts because that's what's in demand. It's more secure, offers more flexibility, and it's cheaper. It makes more sense to target 95% of the market rather than 5%.

    As for the post about the "real languages" being VB and .NET, I have a nice little laugh. Thanks for the humor.
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  16. #16
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    Re: Re: why so many host sell php/linux/mysql?

    Originally posted by VanHost
    I just thought I would comment on this, being that you pass it off so easily. This is a BIG edge. At any give moment, in the main forums, there are a good 15-30% of the topics complaining about a certain host. 90% of those happen to be complaining abuot service. When you have a lot of competition, Nothing sells better than service.
    nothing wrong with that but every hosts here say they offer the best customer service. just kinda wonder if you guy offer anything else in your LAMP platform that can beat other. also i want to know why host didn't offer other technology like jsp/coldfusion.

  17. #17
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    Originally posted by jbigelow
    Windows 2003 Server is much better than its predecessors. I've been running my box at Server Matrix since December of last year. The only reboots (two that I remember) were for patches. I believe I've only had about 7 minutes of aggregate downtime.

    Justin
    samething here. i got my Win2003 SBS edition from MS(free for reseller). i setup a test website and run test on it. overall, it doesn't have a lot of problem like predecessor(IIS5) but still Linux cost nothing so i guess that's why so many LAMP host out there.

  18. #18
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    Re: Re: why so many host sell php/linux/mysql?

    Originally posted by Amdac
    Most hosts offer linux accounts because that's what's in demand. It's more secure, offers more flexibility, and it's cheaper. It makes more sense to target 95% of the market rather than 5%.
    are you sure LAMP is in demand? netcraft show lot of webserver with LAMP are sharehost that doesn't generate lot of traffic and also MS own marekting show IIS/.Net platform actually gain marketshare.(not that i beileive their word )

    when so many people offer the same platform(LAMP) what's your niche? how do you different yourself other than customer service?

  19. #19
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    Originally posted by jbigelow
    Windows 2003 Server is much better than its predecessors. I've been running my box at Server Matrix since December of last year. The only reboots (two that I remember) were for patches. I believe I've only had about 7 minutes of aggregate downtime.

    Justin
    I'll agree that Windows has improved as a server platform. However, two reboots for one server in 5 months is still a lot. When I have the choice to administer a Windows server that I have to reboot every two months, or a FreeBSD server that has been running for 3 years without a reboot, I'll take the FreeBSD server.

    It's nice to see that Windows Server 2003 is more stable than past versions, but it still has some catching up to do.
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  20. #20

    Re: Re: why so many host sell php/linux/mysql?

    Originally posted by Amdac
    Most hosts offer linux accounts because that's what's in demand. It's more secure, offers more flexibility, and it's cheaper. It makes more sense to target 95% of the market rather than 5%.

    As for the post about the "real languages" being VB and .NET, I have a nice little laugh. Thanks for the humor.
    Windows hosting is only 5% of the market? I guess everyone's a comedian today.

    Justin

  21. #21
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    Re: Re: Re: why so many host sell php/linux/mysql?

    Originally posted by jbigelow
    Windows hosting is only 5% of the market? I guess everyone's a comedian today.

    Justin
    In terms of shared hosting, yes. The actual value was less 8 months ago when I saw the statistics.
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  22. #22

    Re: Re: why so many host sell php/linux/mysql?

    Originally posted by Amdac
    Most hosts offer linux accounts because that's what's in demand.
    Netcraft seems to think that .NET is in demand...

    "In this month's Web Server Survey the number of IP addresses with sites using ASP.NET has overtaken those using JSP and Java Servlets. The number of IP addresses found with ASP.NET has shown very strong growth in the past year with a 224% increase from 17.2K to 55.8K. JSP & Java Servlets despite being overtaken is the next fastest growing in percentage terms with a 56% increase."

    http://news.netcraft.com/archives/20..._servlets.html

    That's comparing .NET to Java but it just goes to show that you can't make a blanket statement without backup.


    It's more secure,
    That's a subjective statement. What would happen if every wanna be web host with a $60.00 dedicated server and nothing but their knowledge of cPanel to guide them had to patch their own servers? Newsforge.com keeps pretty good track of FOSS exploits as they break and there is even a database for tracking them. Without a good admin either platform will turn to poo.


    offers more flexibility,
    Could you elaborate? Is this a in reference to functionality that is somehow missing in .NET that PHP/MySql seems to have a lock on. Or is it a reference to licensing?


    and it's cheaper.
    Ah, now we get to the real meat of it and a point that I can agree on. LAMP and cheap bandwidth has obliterated the barriers to entry for the webhosting industry, judging by some of the L337 cPanel admins out there is this necessarily a good thing?

    Justin

  23. #23
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    Re: Re: Re: why so many host sell php/linux/mysql?

    Originally posted by jbigelow
    [B]Netcraft seems to think that .NET is in demand...
    Sorry, you're quoting percentage increases, not market shares.


    That's a subjective statement. What would happen if every wanna be web host with a $60.00 dedicated server and nothing but their knowledge of cPanel to guide them had to patch their own servers? Newsforge.com keeps pretty good track of FOSS exploits as they break and there is even a database for tracking them. Without a good admin either platform will turn to poo.
    Once again, you're suggesting Linux server admins are clueless. I'm comparing operating systems, not administrators. My assumption is that admins in both categories are skilled, which is fair to say.

    Could you elaborate? Is this a in reference to functionality that is somehow missing in .NET that PHP/MySql seems to have a lock on. Or is it a reference to licensing?
    I could write a book on the problems with windows, windows security, and windows based applications. I wont get into it here.


    Ah, now we get to the real meat of it and a point that I can agree on. LAMP and cheap bandwidth has obliterated the barriers to entry for the webhosting industry, judging by some of the L337 cPanel admins out there is this necessarily a good thing?
    Once again, I'm talking about real companies run by skilled technicians, not a 14 year old reseller account.
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  24. #24

    Re: Re: Re: Re: why so many host sell php/linux/mysql?

    [QUOTE]
    [B]Sorry, you're quoting percentage increases, not market shares.
    [Quote]

    Ok, I came back with some numbers, you were recalling something from 8 months ago. Post valid proof that Windows hosting makes up less than 5% of the current market and I'll shut up.



    Once again, you're suggesting Linux server admins are clueless. I'm comparing operating systems, not administrators. My assumption is that admins in both categories are skilled, which is fair to say.
    I never said Linux admins were clueless, the ones that I know personally are quite intelligent and I can appreciate the sophistication of Linux, I wish I had more time to spend with it. However, being able to load your distro of choice does not an admin make. And since an OS, no matter how flimsy or secure can attach itself to the net sans a human being seperating them out seems to have little value in a pragmatic sense.


    I could write a book on the problems with windows, windows security, and windows based applications. I wont get into it here.
    No need, MS does a pretty good job of documenting (sooner or later) know exploits, and we always have the /. crowd as a backup


    Once again, I'm talking about real companies run by skilled technicians, not a 14 year old reseller account.
    And more so than ever those companies are positioning themselves to meet whatever demand arises. Every single server at The Planet could be running Windows within a few days, conversley, if the market fell out they could wipe every trace of windows out of their data centers. 1and1, I'm sure I don't need to state their history in the industry or their huge Linux base, is running a big MS promo (free Frontpage 2003 with any Windows account) they also host Sharepoint and Exchange accounts and I'll wager they aren't doing it on a bunch of slackware boxes

    Maybe the Windows market is only 5% but that 5% is looking pretty damn attractive.

    Justin

  25. #25
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    If you prefer windows, by all means.. stick with it. I'm simply stating the reason I use linux based servers as a point in this discussion. I've used linux for years, and I personally will never offer windows based services.

    It's all a matter of opinion. Based on the current numbers, it appears most people still prefer *nix/*bsd.
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  26. #26
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    Each OS, has its strong points and each OS has its weak points and each OS has security holes, all that really matters is that each is in the hands of a capable admin, and as long as you are reaching your customers does it really matter what OS you are running.

    We host on windows 2000 / 2003, have been hosting windows platforms since Jun 2001 and have not had one security breach, also we have never had a need to rebuild any of the servers. Granted we need to restart every so often, but we still managed 99.99 uptime in the past 3 years, which is more than our SLA.

    The only reason I choose Windows over a linux flavour was that I know windows, and I know how to secure it etc, If I got a linux box in I know I would faux it up and it probably wont be very secure at all - I hope to learn how to host on linux over the next 12 months with a local installtion and perhaps start offering a linux solution.

    I feel all OS's are as insecure as the next in uneducated hands.

  27. #27
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    Originally posted by delirium
    I feel all OS's are as insecure as the next in uneducated hands.
    Agreed.
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  28. #28
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    Originally posted by Amdac
    If you prefer windows, by all means.. stick with it. I'm simply stating the reason I use linux based servers as a point in this discussion. I've used linux for years, and I personally will never offer windows based services.

    It's all a matter of opinion. Based on the current numbers, it appears most people still prefer *nix/*bsd.
    i hope i didn't start a OS war. it's not what i intended.

    does it make any businese sense to you to offer other technology beside LAMP. how about linux apaceh and jsp (jboss) is there any demand for jsp web host? how about mod_perl/python based platform ?

    is LAMP the only platform that market want?(shared host market).

    .Net and J2EE seem on the rise with mid size companies. does anyone notice this?

  29. #29
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    Originally posted by Amdac
    If you prefer windows, by all means.. stick with it. I'm simply stating the reason I use linux based servers as a point in this discussion. I've used linux for years, and I personally will never offer windows based services.

    It's all a matter of opinion. Based on the current numbers, it appears most people still prefer *nix/*bsd.
    but you dismiss the fact that .Net platform are popular among companies. unix/linux platform are more popular among shared host.

    just want to point out the numbers provide by justin where LAMP and windows market share stand.

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    Why?

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  31. #31
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    Once again, I'm talking about real companies run by skilled technicians, not a 14 year old reseller account.
    Can we, for once, leave age out of this? Some 14-year-olds are more skilled than probably, yes, you.

  32. #32
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    The question you should be asking is "How are you going to market your services?" "How are you going to target your customers?"

    If you are just going to bring a server online, post yet-another-I'm-a-host webpage, and sit back and wait for customers, then yes, you should probably pick the most popular platform and hope that some of the prospects drift your way.

    On the other hand, if you decide to focus your efforts by defining the clients you wish to target, then an analysis of their needs will help you determine what services/platforms to offer.

    Hosts that have "Field of Dreams" business plans (if you host it, they will come) or lack thereof, will contribute to the statistics but nothing else.

    With a focus, overall marketshare numbers are not that meaningful. Example: Apple has approximately 3% of the desktop computer market. By numbers alone, they should have packed-up and closed down a long time ago.

    Now, if you ask Apple, they'll tell you they have 80 to 90% market share of THEIR CHOSEN market segment, which is quite a different success story.


    Originally posted by jt2377
    ...does it make any businese sense to you to offer other technology beside LAMP. how about linux apaceh and jsp (jboss) is there any demand for jsp web host? how about mod_perl/python based platform ?...

  33. #33
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    Originally posted by SniperDevil
    Can we, for once, leave age out of this? Some 14-year-olds are more skilled than probably, yes, you.
    > Birthday October 23rd, 1989

    Just because you're 14 is no reason to take it personal and insult my intelligence. Immature comments like this are the reason I make my statements in the first place.
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  34. #34
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    LAMP = free
    Windows 2003 = not free

    therefore LAMP has much higher gross margin, PLUS with it being open source, sad but true, its much more secure.

  35. #35
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    Although LAMP is theoretically free, the shelves at Fry's and many other locations won't let me take a packaged Linux home from the store without parting with $50 to $90.

    Furthermore, "enterprise" support for LAMP from IBM, Red Hat, and others is not only not-free but similiar cost to support for Windows.

    (Let's not get into flames about community support versus vendor support - all the larger commercial businesses that use LAMP either have a big staff of Linux gurus or pay real $$ for support contracts.)

    Finally, and most important, the one-time platform cost is really not a significant factor in the overall economic equation. Whether you get LAMP "for free" or pay $350 for Windows 2003 Web Edition will not make a real difference in per-website gross margins.

    One might even argue that with less Windows hosts in the market, the average profit-per-site is higher than Linux hosting and easily offsets the small up-front licensing costs.

    Since the "MP" of LAMP (MySql and PHP) also runs on Windows, a Windows server can easily service both classes of clients in most cases.

    Conversely, "mono" notwithstanding, "LA" servers cannot host ASP.NET / SQL Server clients.

    Bottom-line, there is room for both Linux hosting and Windows hosting and neither one is necessarily inferior or "wrong".

    Originally posted by mr_wuss
    LAMP = free
    Windows 2003 = not free

    therefore LAMP has much higher gross margin, PLUS with it being open source, sad but true, its much more secure.

  36. #36
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    Just because you're 14 is no reason to take it personal and insult my intelligence. Immature comments like this are the reason I make my statements in the first place.
    Good job! You noticed my age. Want a cookie? You should also realize I will happily post my age, as I have done so in dozens of threads. I don't see how my comment was immature, and I think you insulted MY intelligence by making a stereotypical remark about 14-year-olds.

  37. #37
    Back to the question, is there any type of real analysis that has been done to show purchasing or demographic trends for Linux/Unix vs. Windows camps of users?

    Cheers,
    Todd

  38. #38
    Originally posted by mr_wuss
    LAMP = free
    Windows 2003 = not free

    therefore LAMP has much higher gross margin, PLUS with it being open source, sad but true, its much more secure.
    Geez, where to start?

    LAMP is only free if your time is worth nothing. There is an opportunity cost to investing your time learning anything, Windows, Linux, auto mechanics, whatever. Currently, anything I need to do programming/IT wise I can do in a fraction of the time in a Windows environment compared to Linux because of my respective knowledge levels which makes Windows a MUCH cheaper platform for me.

    Stating that LAMP has much higher gross margins is only true if the cost of the license is the only item factored into your costs of goods sold. I was recently quoted two different hourly support costs by an admin in the Employment/Offers forum for Linux support versus Windows support (Linux being more expensive). Were I to employ the said admin the cost could negate the free license of Linux.

    The statement of open source = more secure has been debated ad nauseum. It only takes one good exploit to leave you screwed judging by this http://www.osvdb.org/ LAMP has its share.

    Justin

  39. #39
    Originally posted by jt2377
    i hope i didn't start a OS war. it's not what i intended.
    You didn't start a war, I was engaging Amdac because the discussion was a nice change from the usual... "I just bought a dedicated server somebody please tell me everything I need to know to run a business that I should have figured out for myself three months ago."

    Justin

  40. #40
    Originally posted by Todd Main
    Back to the question, is there any type of real analysis that has been done to show purchasing or demographic trends for Linux/Unix vs. Windows camps of users?

    Cheers,
    Todd
    Search netcraft for changes in webserver demographics. Slashdot is another place that usually has people with nothing better to do that report on stuff like that.

    Justin

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