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05-10-2004, 03:41 PM #1Web Hosting Guru
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Do not buy templates from HOOVERWEBDESIGN.COM
Today I went in search of a pizza website template. I would have done this site myself but time does not permit since the store is opening today.
I find a template from HOOVERWEBDESIGN.COM. Odering the template turned into a crazy process. I entered in my credit card, submited and expected a e-mail with a link to download.
I get a e-mail with a link, the link does not go to the template, insted it goes to a form where you have to re enter your name phone e-mail address, what site you will be using it on agree to the terms and so. So I fill this out and notice that it will take up to 24 hours. I needed it today, so I send this e-mail to them:
"I order a template then after the order have to fill out a freakin form again to order it? What kind of crap is this? Then to find out that it will take up too 24 hours to get? I need this today, in 24 hours I could do it myself. Maybe you should think about changing your order script so when you order a template you sign the agreement at the same time. Hope this template comes in before 5pm."
Then I get this e-mail back,
"I'll refund the order.
Gina
Hoover Web Design"
So I send off another mail:
"Why the hell have you done that? Did I say I wanted a refund, no, I said I wanted the template in less than 24 hours. Do I have to now reorder this? "
I get no reply so I call and leave a message. Wait a few hours and call again, I get this lady on the phone, explain what I have done to order. She says that from my first e-mail she thought I wanted the order canceled. Note that the last line from the e-mail says I need this by 5pm. Then she goes off on a rant saying that she will not do business with me becuase of my attitude ( I used the word hell).
I dont care what words I used, this place does not know how to do business.
In the end I went to template monster, paid 59 insted of 40 bucks, but got my template right away.
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05-10-2004, 03:58 PM #2Retired Moderator
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Re: Do not buy templates from HOOVERWEBDESIGN.COM
Originally posted by sethgarnar
Today I went in search of a pizza website template. I would have done this site myself but time does not permit since the store is opening today.
I find a template from HOOVERWEBDESIGN.COM. Odering the template turned into a crazy process. I entered in my credit card, submited and expected a e-mail with a link to download.
I get a e-mail with a link, the link does not go to the template, insted it goes to a form where you have to re enter your name phone e-mail address, what site you will be using it on agree to the terms and so. So I fill this out and notice that it will take up to 24 hours. I needed it today, so I send this e-mail to them:
"I order a template then after the order have to fill out a freakin form again to order it? What kind of crap is this? Then to find out that it will take up too 24 hours to get? I need this today, in 24 hours I could do it myself. Maybe you should think about changing your order script so when you order a template you sign the agreement at the same time. Hope this template comes in before 5pm."
Then I get this e-mail back,
"I'll refund the order.
Gina
Hoover Web Design"
So I send off another mail:
"Why the hell have you done that? Did I say I wanted a refund, no, I said I wanted the template in less than 24 hours. Do I have to now reorder this? "
I get no reply so I call and leave a message. Wait a few hours and call again, I get this lady on the phone, explain what I have done to order. She says that from my first e-mail she thought I wanted the order canceled. Note that the last line from the e-mail says I need this by 5pm. Then she goes off on a rant saying that she will not do business with me becuase of my attitude ( I used the word hell).
I dont care what words I used, this place does not know how to do business.
In the end I went to template monster, paid 59 insted of 40 bucks, but got my template right away.
Good to hear you found the template on template monster.
Good luck.
SiriusI support the Human Rights Campaign!
Moving to the Tampa, Florida area? Check out life in the suburbs in Trinity, Florida.
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05-10-2004, 04:12 PM #3Web Hosting Guru
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Im a jerk because I got upset that they canceled my order for no reason?
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05-10-2004, 04:18 PM #4Newbie
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Maybe you could do something about the language you use in your emails, even if there is a problem, no one likes this kind of language
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05-10-2004, 04:23 PM #5Web Hosting Guru
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I usualy do not use such lang in a mail, but with opening a new pizza shop and needing the site to get done along with run another business im stressin a bit. Having to fill out one form then order then fill out another is to me a crappy ordering system. Then to have my order canceled when the last line of the e-mail is I need this by 5 really set me off.
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05-10-2004, 05:34 PM #6Retired Moderator
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Originally posted by sethgarnar
I usualy do not use such lang in a mail, but with opening a new pizza shop and needing the site to get done along with run another business im stressin a bit. Having to fill out one form then order then fill out another is to me a crappy ordering system. Then to have my order canceled when the last line of the e-mail is I need this by 5 really set me off.
SiriusI support the Human Rights Campaign!
Moving to the Tampa, Florida area? Check out life in the suburbs in Trinity, Florida.
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05-10-2004, 05:40 PM #7Dennis Johnson
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Originally posted by sethgarnar
. . . Then to have my order canceled when the last line of the e-mail is I need this by 5 really set me off.There is no best host. There is only the host that's best for you.
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05-10-2004, 06:48 PM #8Web Hosting Master
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I'd have to say that's a pretty harsh response to a company that is more than likely only interested in protecting their investment and attempting to prevent fraud. I'm sure if someone had ahold of your credit card and was trying to order a template from them, you'd certainly appreciate that extra order form and 24 hour wait.
I'd be willing to bet that most people that are in business for themselves do so because they enjoy what they do, not because they have a fetish for abusive customers.
As previously stated, I don't do business with abusive or rude individuals either. I've turned away quite a few people in the past for just such a reason. I enjoy my job far too much to let it be ruined by some person who missed the day of Kindergarten when they taught manners.
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05-10-2004, 07:41 PM #9Web Hosting Master
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Re: Do not buy templates from HOOVERWEBDESIGN.COM
Originally posted by sethgarnar
I dont care what words I used, this place does not know how to do business.
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05-10-2004, 08:29 PM #10Web Hosting Master
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Greetings,
I'm afraid with that kind of tone, you make no friends whatsoever. That is nothing personal, simply an obeservation. Good luck.Olly | INX-Gaming
Call of Duty 4 hosting
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05-10-2004, 09:42 PM #11Retired Moderator
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Lucky for us you quoted yourself so there is no real need for the other side of the story. As we (those who posted here) can't be all wrong, it means that you were wrong when using that kind of language.
This was reason enough for them not to want you as a customer and it's a very serious reason for you to think twice before using such words (when doing business or otherwise).
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05-10-2004, 09:54 PM #12Web Hosting Master
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For the record, I have used HooverWebDesigns in the past and have had excellent communications with them. I have also dealt with them on a copyright issue (a user had ripped their website) and had nothing but professional dealings.
I think perhaps you (the poster) should consider the wording you use when conversing with people via email, it's called "tone of type" and you definitely relayed a negative image of yourself here.
Good luck but in my opinion your post is incorrect and I likely would have done the same thing Hoover did.Ryan Porter, Owner
Extreme Internet Solutions
Quality Hosting Solutions -- Affordable Prices
Providing Fabulous Hosting and Unreal Web Design! Excellence is our focus.
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05-10-2004, 10:21 PM #13Temporarily Suspended
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hmm thanks for the info!
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05-10-2004, 10:38 PM #14Junior Guru
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would have treated you the same
you may have had a valid issue, but you came across as a jerk, and moreso, a dumbass. When voiceing a complaint, be prim and proper.
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05-12-2004, 10:24 PM #15Web Hosting Guru
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i would have done the same to you too
how do they know your situation?
saying "What kind of crap is this?" in your first email isnt onlaslo.ca
Quality Canadian Web Hosting
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05-12-2004, 10:41 PM #16Disabled
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Those People Sound like total idiots! LOL, They thought you wanted to cancel,
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05-13-2004, 12:10 AM #17Temporarily Suspended
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you a friend of seth?
they are people too with feelings, everybody makes mistakes...
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05-13-2004, 10:19 AM #18Owner of the net for a day
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From the email I read from you, I can't tell the difference in someone that is in a rush for legit reasons, and someone that is in a rush to get a template before the credit card company fraud dept is notified.
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05-27-2004, 11:41 AM #19New Member
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I would like to address some of Seth's comments.
First of all, I make the ordering process clear so that the customer knows what to expect before they place their order. This gives the customer the opportunity to choose whether or not to place an order. I do try to make a lot of information available to my customers about the products and the ordering process. I realize that nobody wants to get something that they didn't expect.
It usually does not take 24 hours to receive your product. Normally it's within the hour. All of the orders are screened manually. Orders that appear to be fraudulent do take longer to verify.
The reason for the template agreement form is simple. Some people will buy a digital product without reading the license agreement. Later on they will come back and say "I wasn't aware that I couldn't do whatever, I want my money back!". I want to be positive that my customers are aware of the license for my products.
I run my business the way I do to limit fraud, chargebacks and copyright infringement. So far what I am doing is working. I don't have many chargebacks and you don't see my templates on ebay like other template sellers.
I must admit when customers email me and demand their product 1 minute after the sale, it does raise a red flag. I don't offer instant download and this is noted on my web site. Perhaps the customer could be in a hurry because they are using a stolen credit card?
Another red flag is a rude email. Profanity is the icing on the cake. As a general practice, I don't do business with individuals that are rude and unprofessional. I'm a nice person. I like to sell products to nice people.
I do appreciate the comments on this board.
Gina Hoover
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05-27-2004, 12:54 PM #20Junior Guru
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I think the original poster did you a service by advertising your site
You do seem to have some nice templates and decent prices.
I do have a couple of comments about your license agreement.
I find the link removal fee to make your prices seem dishonest. The templates are basically useless without paying this extra fee. Why would anyone pay you to advertise your site for you?
It would be nice if you would waive moral rights to the templates. While this is not 100% necessary for your templates to be useful, you go overboard in the restrictions; I can't claim intellectual property ownership of my website if I use your templates. You also pass restrictions on the type of content that can be on a site with one of your templates.
Your license prevents a transfer of copyright. This is explicitly illegal under US copyright law and violates the Berne Convention. Even though any court would disregard this clause, it is of course not going to court over ~$50, so your customers lose their legally enforced rights. This restriction also specifically forbids selling the entire site without the new owner paying you a second time for the template.
It seems like you tie the template to the site. If I decide a site isn't working out, I can't take the template I've already paid for and use it on a new site.
From your website:
If you lost your template you would have to purchase the template again. Doesn't seem fair? Let's say you bought a toaster from Walmart and lost it during a move. Would you ask Walmart to replace your toaster?
This really sums up the problems with your attitude towards your customers. If I'd read that before I started this post, I probably wouldn't have considered you worth the time to post.
If you do searches for your templates as you claim to see people using them without paying, you certainly know who is entitled to be using them, and you can allow them to download another copy.
Anyway, I do think you have nice templates at nice prices, but you are very, very customer-hostile. I don't see how anyone can understand your license terms and still do business with you. I certainly would keep looking.
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05-27-2004, 01:32 PM #21New Member
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You are entitled to your opinion although I do not agree with it. I do not call giving my customers the option of buying their template at a lower price dishonest. Before you pay full price for a template wouldn't it be nice to try out the template first? Then if you like the template you can pay the whole price for it.
Regarding transferring a template to another url. All the customer has to do is email me the new url. I believe this goes out to customers in the email that contains the download link. To clarify this, I will add it to my website's FAQ.
Regarding re-downloading products. I do let customers re-download their products on some occasions, but I don't advertise this. A while ago I had a customer who lost their web template. They didn't contact me and just ordered a replacement web template. When I got the order I credited the customer's money and sent them the template's download link. This from a company who has a hostile attitude toward the customer. The comment about the toaster is there so that customers will keep up with their purchases.
Gina Hoover
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05-27-2004, 03:41 PM #22Web Hosting Master
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I would have cancelled your order as well - perhaps if you'd take your time to read their FAQ, you'd realise that they promise to deliver WITHIN 24 hours and not immediately:
http://www.hooverwebdesign.com/templates/faq.html
So this is your fault for not reading what they have displayed so clearly.
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05-27-2004, 03:54 PM #23Junior Guru
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Originally posted by hooverweb [b]
You are entitled to your opinion although I do not agree with it. I do not call giving my customers the option of buying their template at a lower price dishonest. Before you pay full price for a template wouldn't it be nice to try out the template first? Then if you like the template you can pay the whole price for it.
Originally posted by hooverweb
Regarding transferring a template to another url. All the customer has to do is email me the new url. I believe this goes out to customers in the email that contains the download link. To clarify this, I will add it to my website's FAQ.
Originally posted by hooverweb
Regarding re-downloading products. I do let customers re-download their products on some occasions, but I don't advertise this. A while ago I had a customer who lost their web template. They didn't contact me and just ordered a replacement web template. When I got the order I credited the customer's money and sent them the template's download link. This from a company who has a hostile attitude toward the customer. The comment about the toaster is there so that customers will keep up with their purchases.
I just did a quick search for template sites. The first one that came up on google is www.atemplate.com. I had a quick look at their terms of use. Once you pay the fee, there is no link-back requirement, and you have unlimited rights to use the template in as many sites as you want, be they your own or sites you've built for others for a fee.
The also waive all moral rights, the customer can claim full IP rights over their site. The only restriction is that you can't resell copies of their templates.
Their prices are already cheaper than yours, and when you consider your price doubles without the ad link, and then quadruples to use it on two sites, your prices are insanely high, and your cost of ownership is even higher if the customer has to keep coming back to you to do anything with the template.
Based on my experience with template sites, the atemplate license is the industry norm.
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05-27-2004, 05:08 PM #24Owner of the net for a day
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The also waive all moral rights, the customer can claim full IP rights over their site. The only restriction is that you can't resell copies of their templates.
And, these policies are stated up front, get over it, it is very clear what you get. Personally I prefer someone that lays it all out and lets you know. I have not even been to this site, nor do I care to go, I have no need for templates, I think this whole situation was handled right and Gina Hoover is responding very professionally to all of this.
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05-27-2004, 06:19 PM #25Junior Guru
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Originally posted by amd_duron
This is like an oxymoron here, how is it their IP they bought a TEMPLATE, if they want to have a custom template that is wholly their then that could be IP, becasue they pay someone to make it, but buying a generic template is not IP.
The template is a tool to aid. If you use frontpage to create the site, you don't have to give microsoft that kind of control over your site.
You can't copy and distribute frontpage, and similairly you can't copy and distribute the template, but you should have every other right.
If you buy a hoover template, you can't even have a screen shot of your site published.
Anyway, it's a moot point. Why in the world would anyone buy a template from that site when there are hundreds of template sites that don't have those silly restrictions.
You said yourself you'd never be a customer of her site. It would be interesting to hear from people who do buy templates and see if they'd ever consider buying one of hers after reading her license restrictions.