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  1. #1

    Is wholesaleinternet instulting my intelligence?

    I don't know AMD chips very well, so could someone tell me if I'm right to be insulted by this, I could be wrong:

    The guy from wholesaleinternet.com offered me a choice in processors:

    Intel Pentium IV 2.4Ghz

    or

    AMD Athlon Pro 3100+

    For "the same deal"- same price, all other hardware, etc, the same.

    I'd never heard of that AMD chip, so I looked it up. It's a 1600mhz chip. And, indications are it's a mobile chip, with crappy caching. It just has a deliberately souped up marketing name. Should I be insulted, is that a car salesman move, or is it even remotely a comparable chip?

    http://forums.amd.com/index.php?showtopic=7996
    http://forums.amd.com/index.php?show...8018&hl=2300a\
    http://www.computing.net/cpus/wwwboard/forum/9203.html

    Thanks,
    rw
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  2. #2
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    so don't take this AMD so-called"Athlon Pro 3100+ " chip

    take the P4 2.4
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  3. #3
    Originally posted by blaha
    so don't take this AMD so-called"Athlon Pro 3100+ " chip

    take the P4 2.4
    Well but if this guy is trying to be shrewd, then should I be doing business with them?

    It' s like if you ordered a hamburger and they guy said "Yea I'll sell you a hamburger, or you can have a Delux RatBurger Supreme, for the same deal."

    (Or maybe not if the chip is equivalent, that's what I'm here asking.)
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  4. #4
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    so that was WI that gave you the athlon 3100 quote? interesting. they marked the 1.6 mobile as that? wow. I've seen their duron "1800" and didn't think much of it because i just needed a cheap server, didn't need to be all that powerful.

    But using those tactics and pushing the mobile that high in rating... I will have to rethink keeping my server with them.
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  5. #5
    AMD chips are desribed *by AMD* using the 'performance rating', in this case 3100. intel has announced that they will move to a similar rating model. the folks at wholesale internet told you exactly what they should have. no sneakiness involved.

    paul
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  6. #6
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    Originally posted by rusko
    AMD chips are desribed *by AMD* using the 'performance rating', in this case 3100. intel has announced that they will move to a similar rating model. the folks at wholesale internet told you exactly what they should have. no sneakiness involved.

    paul
    Paul - What we're saying though, is that there is no OFFICIAL Amd Athlon Pro 3100a+ chip. It's simply an overclocked mobile processor. It's not an AMD Athlon Pro 3100a+ processor, since there is no such thing. Just because I overclock my Athlon 2000XP doesn't give me the right to call it an Athlon ColossalPro 2500A++

    - Matt
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  7. #7
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    By the way, Wholesale Internet is a perfectly legit & good company (I used them for a few months). Most likely, they're just marketing the server to you as they bought the parts as... Maybe Aaron will stop in here to clear things up. Go for the P4 2.4Ghz server though.

    - Matt
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  8. #8
    Originally posted by rusko
    AMD chips are desribed *by AMD* using the 'performance rating', in this case 3100. intel has announced that they will move to a similar rating model. the folks at wholesale internet told you exactly what they should have. no sneakiness involved.

    paul
    It's kind of besides the point, paul. Let's forget the marketing angle for a moment and pretend they had offered me either:

    dual xeon

    or

    pentium II 400

    "for the same deal" I mean, WTF right? If the "Athlon Pro 3100+" is vastly inferior to a p4 2.4ghz (looks to be true), then why the hell are they offering it up like it's equivalent or even close?

    Maybe they think I'm a moron- they wouldn't be the first I guess!
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  9. #9
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    a true athlon rating will be comparable to a p4. However, this "1.6ghz athlon 3100" sounds really fishy. It's not a valid amd performance rating.
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  10. #10
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    Yeah, remember clock speed isn't necessarily connected to performance (my centrino 1.4 outperforms my p4 2.8)... but the fact that this is a completely invented metric by a motherboard manufactuerer changes the situation.

    But I wouldn't really blame the company trying to sell it to you -- they're selling what they bought, and it's your responsbility to know what you are buying. Blame ECS for trying to pawn off crap by putting a random number at the end of it.
    Jim Reardon - jim/amusive.com
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  11. #11
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    yeah, for somereason, i missed looking at those links. I hope WI didn't use those boards.. or else they just got swindled.
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  12. #12
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    U should just email Aaron or James to check, dun need to feel insulted, just ask for an explanation will do. For your information I justed ordered a server, quite impress with the way they handle the installation even though it is slightly late at least they bother to email me the reasons and inform me of what they had done.
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  13. #13
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    Don't you just love these threads?

    The CPU comes on the mother board when we buy it. Fan and all. On top of the Fan it says Pro3100+. On the Invoice it says (whatever) Motherboard. CPU AMD Pro3100+. On the other boards we have in the low end servers the sticker says, "Pro1800+"

    I don't think I've offered anyone the 3100 boards yet (We got them in as a replacement for some bad 1800's we had.) so you must have spoken with someone else. Whoever you spoke to was just reading the inventory list. I suppose we could call them something else but that would be an even bigger nightmare with tracking.

    The person you spoke to probably saw the numbers and assumed that a 3100 was better then a 2400. Even so, the sales reps don't just make up prices. He would have taken a stock 1800 price and then added the pricing for the addons you requested. It most likely came out to be the same or a little above a P4 Especially if you wanted a bunch of bandwidth added. In that case, I too would recommend you go with the P4. It's a hyperthreaded Dell with an 800Mhz FSB.

    As for insulting your intelligence, I can assure you, absolutely, without a doubt that was never the intent. We are not in the habbit of insulting possible customers or even current ones. At least not to thier faces. (that was a joke)

    Aaron

    <edit> As for the getting swindled comment: The boards are stable and perform pretty well. The servers we build out of them have DDR RAM, WD Drives and are more then worth the $49 a month we get for them. It just doesn't make any sence for me to put Asus Boards and Optron processors in a $49 server. (You'd like that, wouldn't you. )
    Aaron Wendel
    Wholesale Internet, Inc. - http://www.wholesaleinternet.net
    Kansas City Internet eXchange - http://www.kcix.net
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  14. #14
    Thanks Aaron,

    Originally posted by WII-Aaron
    Don't you just love these threads?
    I don't know what you're saying there.


    The person you spoke to probably saw the numbers and assumed that a 3100 was better then a 2400.
    Good to hear, I hoped so.


    Even so, the sales reps don't just make up prices. He would have taken a stock 1800 price and then added the pricing for the addons you requested. It most likely came out to be the same or a little above a P4 Especially if you wanted a bunch of bandwidth added. In that case, I too would recommend you go with the P4. It's a hyperthreaded Dell with an 800Mhz FSB.
    No, that's not what happened, I'll fill you in. What happeend was, I emailed with James, and I asked about getting the P4 2.4 with a RAM upgrade. He said the ram upgrades you have in stock won't work with the p4 2.4 machines, and that it would be a week to get more ram. So as an alternative he offered the same exact everything only with the "AMD Pro 3100+" instead of a p4 2.4, at the same price. So, it was not "the stock 1800 with addons" he was modifying, it was the stock p4 2.4 with addons. So you can imagine my confusion- it's like going to buy a Toyota Camry and the salesman goes "It'll be a week, but we could give you a Corolla for the same price." ??!?? (except for me it's worse cause I don't know AMD chips ) Good to hear it was unintentional.

    I think I may go with that deal, I'll be in contact with james again next week,

    thanks,
    rw
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  15. #15
    Let me ask you this - how often do you buy a hamburger that is actually made from ham? Ha!
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  16. #16
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    Nevar
    Linux junkie | steward.io
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  17. #17
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    Originally posted by Rotwang

    I think I may go with that deal, I'll be in contact with james again next week,

    thanks,
    rw
    Sounds good. Let me know if you need anything.

    Aaron
    Aaron Wendel
    Wholesale Internet, Inc. - http://www.wholesaleinternet.net
    Kansas City Internet eXchange - http://www.kcix.net
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  18. #18
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    I don't see a problem, you were simply given a choice of architectures. Its the buyers responsibility to decide what they want to choose. At least they gave you the option of picking the better processor

    Personally, I would take an Intel over most any AMD you threw on the table. Thats just a personal bias however, does not mean that I should be insulted when someone offers me the AMD

    My two cent analogy..

    (FYI: I think the AMD rating system is completely ignorant and unnecessary. We should not have to waste time looking up the processor rating to find out the actual clock speed, caches etc)
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  19. #19
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    Originally posted by DeathNova
    (FYI: I think the AMD rating system is completely ignorant and unnecessary. We should not have to waste time looking up the processor rating to find out the actual clock speed, caches etc)
    Because processor performance actually matters, whereas clock speed doesn't? Just a guess there.
    Jim Reardon - jim/amusive.com
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  20. #20
    A Processor manufacturer who manages to make a more efficient processor, which gets more done per clock cycle, would be punished by the market if everyone used processor GHz values as their sole criterion for evaluating performance.
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  21. #21
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    Originally posted by DeathNova
    Personally, I would take an Intel over most any AMD you threw on the table.
    really? even Opterons? 64bit, out preform xeon. nice chips.

    Originally posted by DeathNova
    (FYI: I think the AMD rating system is completely ignorant and unnecessary. We should not have to waste time looking up the processor rating to find out the actual clock speed, caches etc)
    Too bad Intel is going to move to a PR system as well.
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  22. #22
    Originally posted by DeathNova
    I don't see a problem, you were simply given a choice of architectures. Its the buyers responsibility to decide what they want to choose. At least they gave you the option of picking the better processor
    I don't agree. To stretch it to an extreme, Imagine a hosting company that always gave you a choice between an obviously better choice and an obviously worse one, every step of the way. Event ually, one of the choices will be over something you're not entirely sure about- not something as simple as processors, and you'll make the wrong choice. That's not true of WI, in this case it was just a mistake, but I'm making an extreme example to disprove your point.

    I want an isp that's on my side, not perpetually trying to trick me into choosing a crappy option at a crappy price. It's not just about trading money for a service, it's a business relationship, there's a difference.
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  23. #23
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    How did they try to trick you? Did YOU ask what the difference was? Did YOU ask how their performances compare?
    Jim Reardon - jim/amusive.com
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  24. #24
    Originally posted by amusive.com
    How did they try to trick you? Did YOU ask what the difference was? Did YOU ask how their performances compare?
    First of all, they didn't, they just made a mistake. There's five posts saying that, including my last one.

    And second of all, did I ask the difference, did I ask how the performances compare? Um hello, that's the whole point of this thread. Read the first post. wtf?
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  25. #25
    Originally posted by minsight
    A Processor manufacturer who manages to make a more efficient processor, which gets more done per clock cycle, would be punished by the market if everyone used processor GHz values as their sole criterion for evaluating performance.
    kind of like all the RISC cpu manufacturers did? =]

    paul
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  26. #26
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    A manufacturer that *does not* make a more efficient processor is not precluded from coming out and calling theirs a 5000+ or whatever the case. This brings us back to square one, just tell me the chip details and i'll make my own decision whether I think the brand is worthy
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  27. #27
    whom ever behind this nick name WII-Aaron

    I haighly respect what he said, he really know how to handle clients with what he said here.

    he even advice you what to go for.
    http://boostdomain.com
    Affordable unlimited domain reseller plans
    Fully Managed Dedicated Servers
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  28. #28
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    aaron is a good guy and runs a good company
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  29. #29
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    Originally posted by DeathNova

    (FYI: I think the AMD rating system is completely ignorant and unnecessary. We should not have to waste time looking up the processor rating to find out the actual clock speed, caches etc)
    Better get used to it....Intel is going that way as well
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  30. #30
    Originally posted by freakysid
    Let me ask you this - how often do you buy a hamburger that is actually made from ham? Ha!
    They are named after Hamburg not the meat they contain.

    Sorry, couldnt resist.
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  31. #31
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    Originally posted by Rotwang
    First of all, they didn't, they just made a mistake. There's five posts saying that, including my last one.

    And second of all, did I ask the difference, did I ask how the performances compare? Um hello, that's the whole point of this thread. Read the first post. wtf?
    Did you ask, when offered this decision, which was better? Or what the difference was? How can you say they're misleading if they never... misled you? The problem is YOUR assumption that the number after a processor name means something. YOU assumed "big number means faster", they never told you that.
    Jim Reardon - jim/amusive.com
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  32. #32
    Originally posted by amusive.com
    Did you ask, when offered this decision, which was better? Or what the difference was? How can you say they're misleading if they never... misled you? The problem is YOUR assumption that the number after a processor name means something. YOU assumed "big number means faster", they never told you that.
    Are you paying attention? I never said they mislead me. Anywhere. And why would I ask them which is better? If I'm trying to determine if someone's being shrewd or not, I should have asked THEM?! wtf? Ask the suspect if he's guilty or not, brilliant.

    You really didn't read the post that you quote-responded, you skimmed it. I was refuting your assertion that it's ok for an ISP to intentionally offer two options one of which is obviously crappy. I THEN SAID WI IS NOT SUCH AN ISP. Pay attention this time.

    And as for "big number means faster", now I know you definately didn't go to the links in my first post. When I said it had a souped up marketing name, I was quoting AMD's site:

    http://forums.amd.com/index.php?showtopic=7996

    Do some more reading and less talking, and thanks for telling me to never go to amusive.com. Yes, actually you did tell me that, it's between the lines.
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  33. #33
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    Glad not to have you as a visitor, actually.

    Anyway, my point remains... you saw a big number and got offended, that's your problem not theirs. You posted here saying they insulted you by offering you a processor, attempting to damage their reputation when clearly the miscommunication was on your end. You know nothing about computer architecture and are insulting them because of it.
    Jim Reardon - jim/amusive.com
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  34. #34
    Originally posted by amusive.com
    Glad not to have you as a visitor, actually.

    Anyway, my point remains... you saw a big number and got offended, that's your problem not theirs. You posted here saying they insulted you by offering you a processor, attempting to damage their reputation when clearly the miscommunication was on your end.
    ?!?!?!?!?!

    1. WI already admitted to the mistake. Where was the "miscommunication on my end"? There was no mistake on my part here. (Nor shrewdness by WI either, so everyone's happy here but you.)

    2. How was this post "attempting to damage their reputaiton"? It's wrapped with a lot of "I could be wrong here" and "I don't know AMD chips, so". Let me tell you something, if I was going to damage an ISP's reputation, that's not the kind of post I'd write.

    You're seeing things through foggy one-directional pro-ISP goggles, where anything that goes wrong is probably the customer's fault. Thank you SO MUCH for speaking up so I can remember your site and avoid it.
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  35. #35
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    The problem is your attitude. I'll never use these words in any public forums
    Originally posted by Rotwang
    wtf? Ask the suspect if he's guilty or not, brilliant.
    Dixiy.com - Professional Web Hosting Provider since 2002
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  36. #36
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    Originally posted by Rotwang
    ?!?!?!?!?!

    1. WI already admitted to the mistake. Where was the "miscommunication on my end"? There was no mistake on my part here. (Nor shrewdness by WI either, so everyone's happy here but you.)

    2. How was this post "attempting to damage their reputaiton"? It's wrapped with a lot of "I could be wrong here" and "I don't know AMD chips, so". Let me tell you something, if I was going to damage an ISP's reputation, that's not the kind of post I'd write.

    You're seeing things through foggy one-directional pro-ISP goggles, where anything that goes wrong is probably the customer's fault. Thank you SO MUCH for speaking up so I can remember your site and avoid it.
    Your entire post is negative. If you don't see that, that's a problem of your own perception. Your entire post was an attack on wholesaleinternet's reputation, whether or not you meant it as one.

    You did make a mistake and continue to make one. You assume that offering a chip with a big number after it is wrong, because that big number is meaningless. Yes, they applogized for offering it to you, but even if they had, they have full right to. The chip was sold to them as a Pro 3100+ and it is up to YOU to investigate into what that means. You never even ASKED them "does that mean it's 3100 Mhz? Does that mean it's faster than the 2.8 p4?" yet you post HERE saying they're insulting you as a customer.

    You also like to make things personal. I'm pointing out a flaw in your attack, and instead of defending yourself you instead attack my company. Classy and classic.

    If you went to a Honda dealership and they were selling a Civic and a Accord with the same options at the same price, would it be THEIR fault if you bought the Civic? No, it'd be your own damn fault for walking into a car dealership knowing nothing about cars. The same exact thing applies to computer parts.
    Jim Reardon - jim/amusive.com
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  37. #37

    Your entire post is negative. If you don't see that, that's a problem of your own perception.
    *First* sentence of my post: "I don't know AMD chips very well, so could someone tell me if I'm right to be insulted by this, I could be wrong:" Which one of us has a perception problem?


    You did make a mistake and continue to make one. You assume that offering a chip with a big number after it is wrong, because that big number is meaningless.
    Once again, you still haven't looked at the link from my first post. I never even actually pointed at the large number as being deceptive by the way. I said the chip has a souped up marketing name, and that's the same thing they said on the AMD forum. Removed the colored glass you're looking through and see the facts. All of the criticism of my "believeing that large numbers mean faster" is unfounded.


    You never even ASKED them "does that mean it's 3100 Mhz? Does that mean it's faster than the 2.8 p4?" yet you post HERE saying they're insulting you as a customer.
    Ok, this right here proves my case entirely. I didn't post here "saying they're insulting me as a customer". What I posed was a question, "Am I being insulted here?", and most of the first page of responses is people agreeing that yea, we think that's fishy too.


    You also like to make things personal. I'm pointing out a flaw in your attack, and instead of defending yourself you instead attack my company. Classy and classic.
    An attack on your company is a personal attack?! Guess again! If you're posting on the subject of dedicated servers and your company sells dedicated servers, and all of your opinions of obviously out of whack, then that does reflect negatively on your company. If you'd said "I sell jelly beans, and I like them to be as overpriced as possible" and I said "Well I'm not going to order jellybeans from your company!" Then is that a "personal attack"?


    If you went to a Honda dealership and they were selling a Civic and a Accord with the same options at the same price, would it be THEIR fault if you bought the Civic? No, it'd be your own damn fault for walking into a car dealership knowing nothing about cars. The same exact thing applies to computer parts.
    This is the crux of your problem. You see this as trading services for cash. That's not what a business relationship is. A business relationship is where the seller and the buyer both have an interest in the success of the buyer's company, for mutual benefit. Tactics like the one you describe work great for car salesman, but not for subscription based services. You're right it would be my own fault for taking the crappy car, but it would have been the salsman's fault for creating a bad business relationship. That is the part you don't get.

    Luckily that's not the tatics WI was employing, and they seem to be a good company from what I've heard.
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  38. #38
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    Originally posted by Rotwang
    *First* sentence of my post: "I don't know AMD chips very well, so could someone tell me if I'm right to be insulted by this, I could be wrong:" Which one of us has a perception problem?
    What about it gives you the right to be insulted? Did they at any point lie to you? Try to deceive you? No.

    You're insulted by being given a choice... sounds about right.

    Then you call them "car salesmen", implying they're trying to take advantage of you despite the fact they never attempted to mislead or lie to you. They never said the 3100+ had better performance than the 2.8.

    You never gave any reason why you should be insulted by their offer.


    Ok, this right here proves my case entirely. I didn't post here "saying they're insulting me as a customer". What I posed was a question, "Am I being insulted here?", and most of the first page of responses is people agreeing that yea, we think that's fishy too.
    Uhm, nobody agrees with you then. People agree the chip is crap, but nobody posted you should be insulted. So, by your own argument, you are wrong. Nice.


    An attack on your company is a personal attack?! Guess again! If you're posting on the subject of dedicated servers and your company sells dedicated servers, and all of your opinions of obviously out of whack, then that does reflect negatively on your company. If you'd said "I sell jelly beans, and I like them to be as overpriced as possible" and I said "Well I'm not going to order jellybeans from your company!" Then is that a "personal attack"?
    Yes, instead of arguing the topic at point you irrelevently insult my company because you disagree with me. I do not sell dedicated servers, but I know a whole lot more about them than you, as is obvious.


    This is the crux of your problem. You see this as trading services for cash. That's not what a business relationship is. A business relationship is where the seller and the buyer both have an interest in the success of the buyer's company, for mutual benefit. Tactics like the one you describe work great for car salesman, but not for subscription based services. You're right it would be my own fault for taking the crappy car, but it would have been the salsman's fault for creating a bad business relationship. That is the part you don't get.
    I never said it's a good tactic, it's something I'd disagree strongly with. However, if you attempt to purchase something knowing nothing about it, you can't expect flawed assumptions to direct you to a correct choice.
    Jim Reardon - jim/amusive.com
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  39. #39
    Originally posted by amusive.com
    What about it gives you the right to be insulted? Did they at any point lie to you? Try to deceive you? No.
    When did I say I was insulted?! Once again, you aren't READING these posts, you're skimming them and forming a blurry emotional reaction. I did not, repeat, did not say that WI had insulted me. EVER. What I said was "should I be insulted by this?". So to answer your three questions above, in order: "I never said I was insulted.", "No, and I never said they did.", and "No, and I never said they did." You must be reading a different thread.


    You're insulted by being given a choice... sounds about right.
    Would I be insulted if they had intentionally given me that choice? YES! Sounds about right.


    Then you call them "car salesmen", implying they're trying to take advantage of you despite the fact they never attempted to mislead or lie to you. They never said the 3100+ had better performance than the 2.8.
    I never called them car salesman. I said "is that a car salesman move, or [...]". You, sir, do not understand the difference between a question and a statement. Between conjecture and an assertion.


    You never gave any reason why you should be insulted by their offer.
    Nor did I say that I was insulted by their offer. If they had offered it intentionally, I would have been, for reasons I've stated a hundred times.


    Uhm, nobody agrees with you then. People agree the chip is crap, but nobody posted you should be insulted. So, by your own argument, you are wrong. Nice.
    ?? Frist of all, someone said they'd rethink WI if that was the case. (turns out that WI only made a mistake). And second, I only said they agreed it was fishy. And guess what- people are right about the "3100" being fishy. It's NOT an AMD rating, as people have said.


    I never said it's a good tactic, it's something I'd disagree strongly with.
    So tell me, if an ISP offered that to you, (intentionally), what would you do? Would you pick the better proc, or would you go to a different ISP? (NOTE: This is not the case here with WI, they just made a mistake. I am posing a hypothetical scenario.)
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  40. #40
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    What I'm gathering from your post is you did not mean your first post to be as insulting towards the provider in question as it was. Judging by your general attitude from your posts this is probably a common issue, so I'll just move on to your last question.

    Here's an example that will be both beneficial to understanding and perhaps your career:

    Supermarkets sell both 2 liters and 20-oz bottles. In my market, 20-oz bottles run $1.29 and 2 liters are often on sale for 99 cents.

    Yet I do not picket these stores for selling an inferior product at a higher cost, nor do I refuse to patronize them.

    This happens at *every* store. Yet you eat. Do you only eat fast food?

    Oh, but there's a problem there, too. Another example is recently my local Burger King offered whoppers for 99 cents. A normal hamburger was $1.49, despite the fact it was smaller.

    Surprisingly no picket lines formed around the BK for selling a lesser product for more money. People just chose the better value.

    I have more examples if you'd like, there was a surprising deal at the local Dairy Queen because they were doing blizzards buy-one-get-one-free that would knock your socks off.
    Jim Reardon - jim/amusive.com
      0 Not allowed!

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