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  1. #1
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    i just tricked a fraud

    there is this fraud who tries to pay for a 1 year plan with his credit card.

    so he emailed me to ask if it is possible to pay by credit card and he is from indonesia.

    i said ok but i would need a copy of his credit card and identification.

    at first, he insisted that he fax these documents to me but i insisted that he send it to me as email attachments.

    after i receive the documents, i finally know why he insisted on faxing it.

    the color credit card "scan" is so awfully done. It is the worst photoshopped image i have ever since (much worse than those fake porn photos). the embedded numbers are black? err... shouldn't the embedded numbers be silver?

    let's just say the "scan" looks like cartoon.

    it would not be easily noticeable if he faxed it to me instead.

    the identification is even worse. he claims that he was a singapore citizen and so he sent me his "Singapore Identification Card".

    i have some singapore friends here in australia and i have seen their Identification card before.

    his "Identification card" is entirely different from theirs. design wise, information shown, everything, card number format (his identification number has more digits than the norm). oh yes, it is definitely photoshopped too.

    so, in the end, i decided to just play along with him.

    I lied to him that I have charged his card and he should be able to access his account. (obviously, i did not charge his card or open an account for him).

    then, he kept on complaining on how he can't access his account. anyway, i insisted that the account has been opened for him.

    in the end, he finally flared up and insisted that i cancel his order and refund his payment (i suspect that this is because his card is fraud, and thus it is only good for 1 transaction since the real credit card holder will realize the fraud charges soon.)

    i told him that i cannot refund his payment as we do not have any money back guarantee policy (please note: I never charge his card. but since the credit card is not his, he cannot check his statement)

    so finally, he got very angry and told me that he is going to contact the police in my country!

    the last time i tricked a fraud (from indonesia too) was when i asked him to fax over his credit card and identification documents to me, and I gave him FBI internet fraud's fax number instead of mine. never heard from him after that.

    was i wrong to handle the situation this way?

  2. #2
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    That's a rather "interesting" scenario. My only concern is this... If he was trying to scam you, how many people would happen to have fake credit card scans and ID's readily available? It seems like a bit too much work on your "clients" part for a simple webhost scam. I'd be a little worried that this was a valid order, especially the fact that he's requested a refund several times. Most scammers would have just packed up and moved on without going through that much trouble and effort.

    Just my opinion.
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  3. #3

    Re: i just tricked a fraud

    Originally posted by lobaloba9

    the last time i tricked a fraud (from indonesia too) was when i asked him to fax over his credit card and identification documents to me, and I gave him FBI internet fraud's fax number instead of mine. never heard from him after that.

    nicely done

  4. #4
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    Originally posted by Amdac
    That's a rather "interesting" scenario. My only concern is this... If he was trying to scam you, how many people would happen to have fake credit card scans and ID's readily available? It seems like a bit too much work on your "clients" part for a simple webhost scam. I'd be a little worried that this was a valid order, especially the fact that he's requested a refund several times. Most scammers would have just packed up and moved on without going through that much trouble and effort.

    Just my opinion.
    i am very sure that this guy is fraud after receiving his credit card "scan" and so obviously fake identification card.

    Q: how many people would happen to have fake credit card scans and ID's readily available?

    A: It is a credit card graphics template. I have received a similar "scan" from another fraud. same size, same design, just different credit card number, name, expiry date etc.

    and yes, the embedded number is black too, instead of silver.

    so all they need to do is to obtain valid credit card numbers and expiry date. thereafter, they can run their photoshop program and enter the number and their fake names on the card.

    simple, fast and easy.

    if you had seen the scan for yourself, you will know instantly that it's fake.... VERY FAKE.

    but ultimately, it was his oh so fake identification card that finally gave his game away.
    Last edited by lobaloba9; 05-05-2004 at 02:21 PM.

  5. #5
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    In my experience I can never get anyone who is doing a fraudulent order to return my emails. I am very surprised this fraudster had the audacity to contact you and then request a refund. I too would be a bit concerned that this was a valid order and you've got an angry customer on your hands.



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  6. #6
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    Originally posted by ExtremeIS
    In my experience I can never get anyone who is doing a fraudulent order to return my emails. I am very surprised this fraudster had the audacity to contact you and then request a refund. I too would be a bit concerned that this was a valid order and you've got an angry customer on your hands.



    RP
    well, i have met frauds who return my emails.
    not many, but quite a number.

  7. #7
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    REMEMBER:

    I never charged his card.
    but since the credit card is not his, he cannot check his statement.
    If it was really his card, he could easily call his bank to check.

    so when i lied to him that i have charged his card, he totally believed me.

  8. #8
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    Originally posted by lobaloba9
    REMEMBER:

    I never charged his card.
    but since the credit card is not his, he cannot check his statement.
    If it was really his card, he could easily call his bank to check.

    so when i lied to him that i have charged his card, he totally believed me.
    If I ordered hosting from you and you told me you charged my card, I would believe you too. I would feel no need to confirm it with my bank. As a legitimate company, I would trust you wouldn't lie to me.

    If I were trying to scam you however, I definately wouldn't be so persistent about receiving a refund. This does not seem like a typical scammer.
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  9. #9
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    Originally posted by Amdac
    If I ordered hosting from you and you told me you charged my card, I would believe you too. I would feel no need to confirm it with my bank. As a legitimate company, I would trust you wouldn't lie to me.

    If I were trying to scam you however, I definately wouldn't be so persistent about receiving a refund. This does not seem like a typical scammer.
    ok fair enough.

    but this guy was special.

    he told me that if i had already charged the card, he wanted me to transfer back the amount to him by Western Union.

    it was only after i said no that he insisted that i do a straight credit card refund.

    now, do you still think he is legit?

  10. #10
    We can argue if he was legit or not forever and still never know the answer.

    Personally, I would not feel right telling someone I charged their card when I did not. It doesn't sound as if you have a credit card yourself and know the risks involved. If you told me that you had charged my card and then hadn't, I would be pissed. Don't lie to me about my credit card.
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  11. #11
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    Originally posted by lobaloba9
    it was only after i said no that he insisted that i do a straight credit card refund.

    now, do you still think he is legit?
    If he was using someone else's card, why would he care about a refund via CC at all? A scammer at this point would have just packed up and moved on.
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  12. #12
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    Originally posted by Amdac
    If he was using someone else's card, why would he care about a refund via CC at all? A scammer at this point would have just packed up and moved on.
    this is the part i am not sure.

    my guess is that he paid someone for these numbers and it is only good for 1 usage since the real card holder will notice the charges in his statements. since he thought that i have charged it, the credit card number is useless to him now and he has wasted his money.

    fair enough?

    let me ask you a question: would a real credit card holder give you a fake identification card?

  13. #13
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    Originally posted by daveman
    We can argue if he was legit or not forever and still never know the answer.

    Personally, I would not feel right telling someone I charged their card when I did not. It doesn't sound as if you have a credit card yourself and know the risks involved. If you told me that you had charged my card and then hadn't, I would be pissed. Don't lie to me about my credit card.
    there is no need to argue if he is legit or not.

    he is 100% not legit.

    for goodness sake, he provided me with a fake identification card. (his identification number is invalid. for eg. a real number should be of the form SXXXXXXXXX or FXXXXXXXXX. His was PXXXXX)

  14. #14
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    Originally posted by lobaloba9
    my guess is that he paid someone for these numbers and it is only good for 1 usage since the real card holder will notice the charges in his statements. since he thought that i have charged it, the credit card number is useless to him now and he has wasted his money.
    Whether you issue a refund or not, the charge and refund will still appear on the credit card statement. It makes no difference. That card can also still continue to be used, there is nothing stopping him even if it is stolen.

    I'm not trying to say he's 100% legit, I'm just saying that in my opinion he does not seem like a typical scammer. This may have been a valid client calling his bank up as we post these.
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  15. #15
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    Originally posted by lobaloba9
    there is no need to argue if he is legit or not.

    he is 100% not legit.
    If you feel 100% sure, we'll get back to the initial question.

    was i wrong to handle the situation this way?
    I would not have lied regarding the status of his credit card, scammer or not. It still directly reflects the reputation of your company.
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  16. #16
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    Originally posted by Amdac
    If you feel 100% sure, we'll get back to the initial question.



    I would not have lied regarding the status of his credit card, scammer or not. It still directly reflects the reputation of your company.
    well, i actually wanted to do this so that this fraud will tell his other fraud buddies that my company is not easy to scam, so they will move on to other companies.

    if i had ignore him, his other buddies will still bother me.

    was it a bad move?

  17. #17
    Yes, I feel this was an inapropriate way to handle this situation.
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  18. #18
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    Originally posted by daveman
    Yes, I feel this was an inapropriate way to handle this situation.
    yes. it is very inappropriate but was it a good strategic move?

  19. #19
    As far as was the situation handled properly? imo, no, it was not. As a business things need to be handled professionally even when the customer deserves far less.

    As far as him being a scammer or not, as has been said, we have no proof, but I have had fraudsters and such with amazing audacity. E-mailing me to see why their account had been cancelled, one even found me on IRC and asked why he could not pay me with a stolen credit card, and appeared to be completely sincere. I think some of these people from other countries really have no concept of the laws or the way things work outside of their area. Most do just drop it and walk away when the account gets cancelled, but a few try to act as if they did nothing wrong (even when I have spoken on the phone with the real card owner).
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  20. #20
    I doubt it will have any impact on fraudulent signups.
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  21. #21
    Originally posted by lobaloba9
    well, i actually wanted to do this so that this fraud will tell his other fraud buddies that my company is not easy to scam, so they will move on to other companies.

    if i had ignore him, his other buddies will still bother me.

    was it a bad move?
    Why not just refuse to process the transaction and state that it is because you believe it to be fraudulent? Would that not also show that you caught on and weren't scammed while still keeping your professionalism?
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  22. #22
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    Originally posted by retri
    Why not just refuse to process the transaction and state that it is because you believe it to be fraudulent? Would that not also show that you caught on and weren't scammed while still keeping your professionalism?
    Bingo. This would have had a much more professional and effective outcome in terms of the point you were trying to get across.
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  23. #23
    the simplest explanation tends to be the correct one. Not always, but a lot of times.

  24. #24
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    Oh you don't know how much scammer try to cover up their paths....
    Had quite a lot of experience from my past eBay business and believe me the scammer actually would continue to talk and pursuade you even after the transaction be it completed or not.

    Well anyway as per this case.... he is in Indonesia but he is Singaporean??? Sounds funny? Business trip maybe? but why would you want to do it in Indonesia rather than coming back to Singapore where it is more secure to do the transaction?

    And as for the NRIC. It started with P?? Well if he is a Singapore Citizen it should be an "s" and a permantent resident its and "F". I believe P maybe for foriegn workers only. and thus he IS NOT Singaporean......

    Furthermore would you send YOUR Identification Card and Credit Card Scans over the email or Fax?? I never heard of Web Hosting companies requesting it and I would have rejected sending it..... if he didn't mind maybe its not his after all.....

    And why would he want to have a webhosting account? You heard of Warez, gamez and stuff?? A lot of these scammers not only operate credit card scams but they also load these files in so they could be transferred worldwide...... There was a case in Singapore ( Yes I am from Singapore! ) where 3 were napped for operating a software pirate syndicate for downloading warez over the net to burn and sell......

    If he sounds like a fake... smells like a fake... well he is a fake.... Better to have lost that one customer than to jeopordise the rest of the legal customers in your server.

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  25. #25
    In my opinion, thats ****ing awesome.

    Not only that but it would be rather fun screwing around with him and seeing him get all pissed off.

    Damn scumbag...

  26. #26
    I haven't had the pleasure of any Indonesian subscriptions, but I know that my husband refuses all Indonesian online purchases for his (non-related) company. He confirms with the banks initiating as code10. They have all been fraudulent. And have had the nerve to send further emails. I guess with tangible goods and requesting delivery yesterday, that helps catch them.
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  27. #27
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    Originally posted by WWiRE
    In my opinion, thats ****ing awesome.

    Not only that but it would be rather fun screwing around with him and seeing him get all pissed off.

    Damn scumbag...
    This is why I'm glad you don't manage my accounts. Some of us like to keep things running at a professional level.
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  28. #28
    touche amdac
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  29. #29
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    Question Question...

    If he was really a fraud, and you had all of this info...Why not turn it into the police? Even if it was still fake, they could still find a way to get him...They always do.

    Second, you should have just denied him service for the lack of proper documents and sent him on his way. I don't see how you entertaining his request made any difference...We're you bored? :-)

  30. #30
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    I guess a simple "We do not accept credit card payments from Indonesian and/or singaporean people. Please send us the money using another method." would've been much more elegant. You don't refuse service and yet you don't expose yourself to fraud.

    But then again, it's your right to play from time to time. There's no one to stop you!

  31. #31
    call me mean, but what i do is i send them a dummy url that looks like a download link (fully prepaired site and everything) and the link that they download is labled to whatever they are buying (IE: software..). The site is plastered with "DO NOT GIVE OUT URL" etc..stuff that really sticks out and would make them all really give out the url to their buddies

    In reality the software they think they are downloading is actually CD1 of Red Hat 9 (600 mb)

    yah, call me mean

  32. #32
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    We now require a credit card authorization form signed with a photocopy/scan of ID and credit card on every dedicated server order now. We have only had one person produce a fake ID and fake card. He had a server online for 1 week before we got the charge back notice. So I called the guy and started giving it to him about him being a thief and liar. The guy had the nerve to tell me the person who charged back the funds was the crook who stole his card and charged everything back. I just about fell out of my chair. I gave the victim this thiefs info and let him take it from there.
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  33. #33
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    Should have it mentioned in our TOS which countries we dont accept payment from? or which need extra verification re: their credit card infos. People would get frustrated to send out legit documents, proper id #s but we can tell them it is part of the terms of service, would that be right?
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  34. #34
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    It might be a good idea to implement a policy of first authorizing the card for $1.00 then dropping the authorization and waiting another 10 days or so before placing the actual charge. Its not fool proof, but many cards will start to decline within a few days of the initial fraud attempts.

  35. #35
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    That solves the Fraud problem maybe.....
    But your marketing department will start SCREAMING at you if you did that.....
    Waiting for 10 days is not a good idea if you ask me..... Way too long....
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  36. #36
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    All i have to say is nice work to lobaloba9
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  37. #37
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    10 days?? whoaa way tooo long. 1-2 days or maximum 3 but more than that is just too much.
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  38. #38
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    10 days !

    What !

    Your jokin....
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  39. #39
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    charge for authorizing can be debated, but waiting soo much is just insane, you can loose potential customers and the customers can loose business if they want to change quickly and they cant cause they have to wait so many days. They would not walk, run but FLY to your competitors
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  40. #40
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    lmao - Yaser - FLY to your competitors ...
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