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  1. #1
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  2. #2
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    The United States was never "defeated" as you put it in Vietnam. Please reread your history books.
    TradeViceroy

  3. #3
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    Re: Giap pronouces US defeat.

    Originally posted by The Dude_
    . . . Vo Nguyen Giap, the legendary general who masterminded Vietnam's wars of independence against the French and American armies, warned the United States Friday that it faced defeat in Iraq . . .
    WOW, imagine that, an ex general who fought against the US armies, reckons they'll be defeated in IRAQ. lol. I think a nurse should give the old sod another warm blanket, and what the heck do we care what some ex/current enemy of the USA thinks?

    The main objective for the Coalition forces was to remove Saddam from power. They dragged his patheticness from a hole (so fitting), and have him safely tucked away under their control.

    Folks can argue all day about an exit strategy for the coalition forces, and handing over power to the IRAQ government, and we all know it's going to be messy. I've yet hear anyone complain that IRAQ was better off under Saddam's rule.
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  4. #4
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    Re: Re: Giap pronouces US defeat.

    Originally posted by Aussie Bob
    They dragged his patheticness from a hole (so fitting), and have him safely tucked away under their control.
    Did you mean to have that rhyme?
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    Re: Re: Re: Giap pronouces US defeat.

    Originally posted by Xshare
    Did you mean to have that rhyme?
    No I didn't. Maybe it could be a good rap.
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  6. #6
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    Re: Re: Giap pronouces US defeat.

    Originally posted by Aussie Bob
    WOW, imagine that, an ex general who fought against the US armies, reckons they'll be defeated in IRAQ. lol. I think a nurse should give the old sod another warm blanket, and what the heck do we care what some ex/current enemy of the USA thinks?
    The man drew out a war with the United States for years and kept the people so involved that over 2 million Vietnamese died yet they still kept fighting, give him some credit.

    This war isn't that much different. Granted the technology will make the 1000/1 death rate of combatants to Americans even lower the political battle will follow similar paths. Iraqi's - just like you or me - want freedom, they'll follow whomever will provide the most of it in the shortest period of time, and that means if America loses the popular war they'll inevitably either have to kill every Iraqi or pull out - just like Vietnam.

    The main objective for the Coalition forces was to remove Saddam from power. They dragged his patheticness from a hole (so fitting), and have him safely tucked away under their control.
    That's actually something I've been wondering about. Where is Saddam Hussein? If America captured him - regardless of how - where is he now? Why don't we hear about him? Why are there no talks of an international trial? Look at Milosevic, took no time at all to get him on trial once he was booted from his former home.

    Maybe running the Hussein trial during elections would be a Bush booster and that's the reason for a holdout. Either way the sudden and total halt to news coverage about Hussein was strange, maybe the US just caught a look-alike and is having trouble fessing up?

    Folks can argue all day about an exit strategy for the coalition forces, and handing over power to the IRAQ government, and we all know it's going to be messy. I've yet hear anyone complain that IRAQ was better off under Saddam's rule.
    Actually in the short run: Everyone had water, power, and basic needs covered; You only had one power monger to worry about instead of tribal war; if you were going to jail you knew it was because of who or what you pissed off; and a definite lack of heavy weapons fire on the streets was probably to everyone's benefit.

    Not to say the long-run outcome of a rebuilt Iraq won't dramatically improve lives of those living in the country or that there was even any other way to do it (fight fire w/ fire), but there are some good arguments against bulldozing Iraq's former government even if the end result was just a stalling tactic with no real change.

    I'm also concerned the people of Iraq need to want change. While America could outright kick the *** of any aggressor changing people's minds about their country - especially one whose religious doctrine promotes monarchy and hierarchal rule - is the real battle that in my mind is going to take years.

    -Matt

  7. #7
    Better off nor not? This is something I received, don't know how much of this is accurate because I received it in one of those forwarded emails that get sent all over the place. I DO know a lot of good things are happening over there but it's almost exclusively the bad stuff that gets resported:

    From a medic in the Army in Iraq. This is the list of things that has happened in Iraq recently: (Please share it with your friends and compare it to the version that your paper is producing.)

    * Over 400,000 kids have up-to-date immunizations.
    * School attendance is up 80% from levels before the war.
    * Over 1,500 schools have been renovated and rid of the weapons stored there so education can occur.
    * The port of Uhm Qasar was renovated so grain can be off-loaded from ships faster.
    * The country had its first 2 billion barrel export of oil in August.
    * Over 4.5 million people have clean drinking water for the first time ever in Iraq.
    * The country now receives 2 times the electrical power it did before the war.
    * 100% of the hospitals are open and fully staffed, compared to 35% before the war.
    * Elections are taking place in every major city, and city councils are in place.
    * Sewer and water lines are installed in every major city.
    * Over 60,000 police are patrolling the streets.
    * Over 100,000 Iraqi civil defense police are securing the country.
    * Over 80,000 Iraqi soldiers are patrolling the streets side by side with US soldiers.
    * Over 400,000 people have telephones for the first time ever.
    * Students are taught field sanitation and hand washing techniques to prevent the spread of germs.
    * An interim constitution has been signed.
    * Girls are allowed to attend school.
    * Textbooks that don't mention Saddam are in the schools for the first time in 30 years.
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  8. #8
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    Apex, I hate the war and always felt it was avoidable...but...

    ...if (big IF) those stats are accurate, it is certainly something to be thankful for...
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  9. #9
    I would call us defeated in Vietnam, we did not win the war, therefore we were defeated(in my opinion). Yeah some people say Nixon's Peace with honor worked, but it really made the situation much worse in Cambodia, Laos, and much of Vietnam.

    We simply put told S Vietnam ok it is your war now go fight it, then we slowly supported them less and less financially. When we did this the war was not going any better for us on the home front or in Vietnam.

    It is fairly easy to say we were not defeated. At the very least we were on the slow path to defeat. Nixon got elected by his "secret plan" to get us out of Vietnam, then once elected he really did not have a plan which eventually became Vietnamization of the war. BTW, Vietnamization was exactly what Truman, Eisenhower and Kennedy planned to stick with(other than Kennedy using special forces mostly for training the ARVN). This held true until LBJ sent everyone and their brother over.

    BTW I just took a whole course on the Vietnam War
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  10. #10
    If the Iraq people can organize like the NVietnamese and Viet Cong did we could very well be defeated in Iraq.

    Keeping the media on good terms will play a major role in the outcome of Iraq. If the media decides to put a spin on the issues like they did in Vietnam American public opinion will most certainly fall which will hurt the whole US effort and or could get John Kerry elected.

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  11. #11
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    Originally posted by APEXware
    Better off nor not? This is something I received, don't know how much of this is accurate because I received it in one of those forwarded emails that get sent all over the place. I DO know a lot of good things are happening over there but it's almost exclusively the bad stuff that gets resported:

    From a medic in the Army in Iraq. This is the list of things that has happened in Iraq recently: (Please share it with your friends and compare it to the version that your paper is producing.)

    * Over 400,000 kids have up-to-date immunizations.
    * School attendance is up 80% from levels before the war.
    * Over 1,500 schools have been renovated and rid of the weapons stored there so education can occur.
    * The port of Uhm Qasar was renovated so grain can be off-loaded from ships faster.
    * The country had its first 2 billion barrel export of oil in August.
    * Over 4.5 million people have clean drinking water for the first time ever in Iraq.
    * The country now receives 2 times the electrical power it did before the war.
    * 100% of the hospitals are open and fully staffed, compared to 35% before the war.
    * Elections are taking place in every major city, and city councils are in place.
    * Sewer and water lines are installed in every major city.
    * Over 60,000 police are patrolling the streets.
    * Over 100,000 Iraqi civil defense police are securing the country.
    * Over 80,000 Iraqi soldiers are patrolling the streets side by side with US soldiers.
    * Over 400,000 people have telephones for the first time ever.
    * Students are taught field sanitation and hand washing techniques to prevent the spread of germs.
    * An interim constitution has been signed.
    * Girls are allowed to attend school.
    * Textbooks that don't mention Saddam are in the schools for the first time in 30 years.
    There are some twisted facts there.

    * Over 1,500 schools have been renovated and rid of the weapons stored there so education can occur.

    They were used in the war as weapon store, of course, childs wont go to the school in the middle of the war.

    * The country had its first 2 billion barrel export of oil in August.

    Iraq wasent allowed to sell their oil because the embargo.


    * Sewer and water lines are installed in every major city.
    There were prior to the war.

    * Over 4.5 million people have clean drinking water for the first time ever in Iraq.

    This is something odd, mostly the people lives in Bagdad or other major citys, and they has clean water prior to the war. I don't know if this is a lie or what.

    * 100% of the hospitals are open and fully staffed, compared to 35% before the war.

    Of course, the embargo prohibited to Iraq buy some medicine, and some equipments.
    People with cancer has no live hope because oncologic medicine were prohibited to be imported or generated in Iraq.

    * Over 60,000 police are patrolling the streets
    * Over 100,000 Iraqi civil defense police are securing the country.
    * Over 80,000 Iraqi soldiers are patrolling the streets side by side with US soldiers.

    Crime has incresed after the end of the war.

    * Girls are allowed to attend school.

    They were ALWAYS allowed to attend to school

    Indeed, Iraq were a very modern country before of the 1991 (war-embargo)

    * Textbooks that don't mention Saddam are in the schools for the first time in 30 years.

    What's the good thing there? Ignorance or what? Saddam was their president or prime minister or whatever you want to call him, for 30 years, that's part of their history.
    There's not need to paint him like a Hero, but not even mention?
    Last edited by Jedito; 05-02-2004 at 02:20 AM.
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  12. #12
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    Originally posted by APEXware
    * Over 400,000 kids have up-to-date immunizations.
    * School attendance is up 80% from levels before the war.
    * Over 1,500 schools have been renovated and rid of the weapons stored there so education can occur.
    * The port of Uhm Qasar was renovated so grain can be off-loaded from ships faster.
    * The country had its first 2 billion barrel export of oil in August.
    * Over 4.5 million people have clean drinking water for the first time ever in Iraq.
    * The country now receives 2 times the electrical power it did before the war.
    * 100% of the hospitals are open and fully staffed, compared to 35% before the war.
    * Elections are taking place in every major city, and city councils are in place.
    * Sewer and water lines are installed in every major city.
    * Over 60,000 police are patrolling the streets.
    * Over 100,000 Iraqi civil defense police are securing the country.
    * Over 80,000 Iraqi soldiers are patrolling the streets side by side with US soldiers.
    * Over 400,000 people have telephones for the first time ever.
    * Students are taught field sanitation and hand washing techniques to prevent the spread of germs.
    * An interim constitution has been signed.
    * Girls are allowed to attend school.
    * Textbooks that don't mention Saddam are in the schools for the first time in 30 years.
    since you copy paste something , i'll just copy paste something too

    Of course, anyone can have fun with this. Girls could, of course, attend school in Iraq before the war (the person who sent this to me knew this one and must have removed the "for the first time" part -- or someone in the chain that sent it to him did). Every major city in Iraq had sewer and water lines before the war -- as does every major city. Iraqis knew how to wash their hands before the Americans came. Some of them even knew how to do brain surgery, which requires extensive hand-washing. Telephones were working before the war; now, many aren't. There's no way a soldier could know of his own knowledge that "100%" of hospitals in the whole country are fully staffed and open, or that 35% were before. Either he made it up or someone fed it to him. In any case, I imagine that thd 35% is not even close to being accurate -- if anything, it's more likely that hospitals are closed now, because of security problems or deliberate actions by the coalition. Plenty of kids had up-to-date immunizations under Saddam. An Iraqi history textbook that doesn't mention Saddam is leaving out a hell of a lot. RTI, the North Carolina company that is bringing "democracy" to Iraq, often prefers to appoint councils rather than having them elected. And so on.

    Anyway, it doesn't take much to realize that this is an obvious fabrication, whether or not Ray Reynolds wrote it, and also that it is extreme nonsense. It reminds me of the 11 soldiers who "wrote" identical letters to the editor about how great things are in Iraq.

    But the point is, you can find bulletin boards and discussion lists where people are eating this pathetic thing up. The extreme ignorance so many people have feeds their credulity. This in turn helps make so many completely impervious to new facts and analysis. And am I way off, or does the number of such seem to be growing every year?

  13. #13
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    Originally posted by Jedito
    . . . Crime has incresed after the end of the war.
    Exact statistics please.

  14. #14
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    Originally posted by Aussie Bob
    Exact statistics please.
    It hasn't?...exact statistics please!!

    I think it is bit lame...asking for such things when all you have to do is read news anywhere and in almost every news source it has been stated...that the crime rate is up...also ppl did have power and water to drink which lots of them don't right now....almost the entire plice force was jobless...some of them getting jobs but still many jobless these ppl had jobs before...

    anyhow right now I don't see how the war is doing any good other than saddam being gone which i can agree with..is good...but in all honestly the war has cost the iraqi ppl alot more than what they are getting and perhaps might never had wanted (those who did) if they knew...it would cost them so much.

    Also I usually see ppl talk abt the family of a US soldier when some one is killed...same applies for the iraqis not only the innocent ppl have been killed but tons of soldiers too...and many of them had families and children...I bet they would have been pretty darn happy if there wasn't a war in the first place!

    I still hope some good comes out of this war...saddam being gone...I hope US would lift sanctions...and millions of ppl and children won't die anymore..because of no medicine etc

    Hoping for best of times for the iraqi folks!!

    PS. I don't think US has been defeated nor it will least not how things are...all they need is bit of support from another country and it might bring the downfall of the US...which isn't very likely to happen anyhow.
    Last edited by justwandr; 05-02-2004 at 10:36 AM.

  15. #15
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    Hold on there I'm just asking for a some statistics to backup the claim that crime has increased since the war. I'm sure there could be a general feeling, that crime statistics are up, but I just like to see some hard numbers. Sometimes I can be a tad pedantic.
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  16. #16
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    Originally posted by Aussie Bob
    Sometimes I can be a tad pedantic.
    agreed

  17. #17
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    I'll have to dig up the article, but I know for a fact that the Coalition is in the process of modernizing Iraq's national power grid. In October 2003, power generation had been brought up to "pre-war" levels.

    The article stated that several hundred miles of new power lines had been constructed to replace existing aging and deteriorating lines. Most of the power plants in Iraq were not operating at full capacity since the former government did not have the foresight to properly maintain the equipment (government refused to pay for new parts and equipment).

    Now as of April 2004 Iraq's power grid modernization is almost complete with all populated areas receiving power. The Coalition has added several thousand megawatts of power to the grid bringing the level ABOVE the pre-war number.

    The same goes for sewage and water. Yes, most areas had some form of sewage and water, but it was no where close to what a country of that size should have had. The Coalition is doing the same thing for water and sewage as they are doing for electricity. Modernizing and repairing the existing dilapidated system that the former government refused to fund.
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  18. #18
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    Originally posted by Aussie Bob
    Exact statistics please.
    I'm not here to educate you.
    Is pretty easy to find it in any newspaper.
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  19. #19
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    Originally posted by TradeViceroy
    The United States was never "defeated" as you put it in Vietnam. Please reread your history books.
    Sure seemed like it (a defeat) at the time.

  20. #20
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    Originally posted by Jedito
    I'm not here to educate you.
    Is pretty easy to find it in any newspaper.
    Ok, you have no actual statistics that support your claim. I'm not doubting your claim. It could be true. I just wanted some hard numbers.

  21. #21
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    I do have, there were on tv and in the newspaper, but I'm too lazy this morning to search them, if you're the one with doubts, go and search by yourself, Why should I do your job?
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  22. #22
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    Originally posted by Jedito
    . . . Why should I do your job?
    It's not my job. You made a statement - I asked for statistics that proved your statement - you cannot/will not supply them.

    If you can't backup what you say, when challenged, then don't say it. Simple as that. I'm not looking for news articles. I'm looking for the actual statistics. It's not too much to ask.

  23. #23
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    Oficial stadistics are created by the coalition .. are you kidding me? they wont say that.
    If you don't want to believe what newspapers or the TV say, is fine, I really don't care.
    There's not worst blind man that the one who don't want to see.

    Anyway, here you have some interesting articles

    http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0910/p05s02-woiq.html
    http://www.balloon-juice.com/archives/002801.html
    http://edition.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/me...ain/index.html
    http://www.womensenews.org/article.cfm/dyn/aid/1688
    Last edited by Jedito; 05-02-2004 at 12:35 PM.
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  24. #24
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  25. #25
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  26. #26
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    If we (americans) didn't lose in vietnam, then Great Britan didn't lose in the American war of independence.
    "The impossibility of conceiving that this grand and wonderous universe with our conscious selves arose through chance, seems to me the chief argument for existence of God; but whether this argument is of real value I have never been able to decide... The safest conclusion seems to be that the whole subject is beyond the scope of man's intellect." - Charles Darwin

  27. #27
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    Originally posted by Jedito
    There's not worst blind man that the one who don't want to see.

    I do want to see, hence my continually asking for some hard numbers, and not just what you read in some news article. But we shall go through with what you presented.
    It's all best summed up in this passage from here -
    Finding reliable crime statistics here, where the US-led occupation authorities are still scrambling to get a new Iraqi police running effectively, is almost impossible. But anecdotal evidence, interviews, local Iraqi media stories, and a new report from Centurion, a British security firm, suggest that crime in the capital has soared - and that kidnapping and abductions have become particularly lucrative.
    I don't doubt that crime is on the increase in IRAQ. There's a leadership vacuum, until the new IRAQ government takes control and gets onto its feet.

    Of course, when Saddam let 100,000 prisoners out of the prisons, before the war began, that would not help the crime situation -
    Quoted from this page -
    This is a big job, not the least because Saddam Hussein let something like 100,000 prisoners out of all of the prisons in this country before liberation...." Bremer told reporters. "Many of them are murderers. Many of them are conducting the kidnappings and carjackings that are happening."
    Maybe, and this is just a wild swing here maybe those 100,000 released prisoners have contributed in some small way to do with the reported increasing crime problem?

  28. #28
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    Originally posted by Jedito
    and another one

    http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exer...57E6456A43.htm
    so are you saying that according to al jazeera - the islamic news source that is supposedly biased in favor of muslims - that the iraqi people in general are pretty lawless and there area lot of bad people there that dont follow religious law and do terrible things to their own people?

    being an american - I hope that the enws I get that the iraqis are in general good people that have been oppressed is more true. I will give them the benfit of the doubt and hope that the coalition and the iraqi security forces can clean up these bad elements that are causing crime soon.
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  29. #29
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    No, I'm saying that the crime has incresed after the end of the war.
    You can say whatever you want, but don't put your words in my mouth.
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  30. #30
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    Originally posted by Aussie Bob

    I do want to see, hence my continually asking for some hard numbers, and not just what you read in some news article. But we shall go through with what you presented.

    It's all best summed up in this passage from here -

    I don't doubt that crime is on the increase in IRAQ. There's a leadership vacuum, until the new IRAQ government takes control and gets onto its feet.

    Of course, when Saddam let 100,000 prisoners out of the prisons, before the war began, that would not help the crime situation -

    Maybe, and this is just a wild swing here maybe those 100,000 released prisoners have contributed in some small way to do with the reported increasing crime problem? [/B]
    Nice to see another selective reader.

    But anecdotal evidence, interviews, local Iraqi media stories, and a new report from Centurion, a British security firm, suggest that crime in the capital has soared - and that kidnapping and abductions have become particularly lucrative

    So, you're saying the crime has not incresed but after that you say that was incresed? sorry, I can't follow you.

    All this thing because I said that the crime has raised after the war?
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  31. #31
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    I was just reading an article on msnbc.com:

    Most Iraq rebuilding funds still unspent U.S. shifts money to security,administrative expenses

    and I read some claims here and people asking for stats:

    "Over 4.5 million people have clean drinking water for the first time ever in Iraq."

    From the msnbc.com article:
    So far, occupation officials have reassigned $184 million appropriated for drinking-water projects to fund the operations of the U.S. Embassy after the provisional authority is dissolved June 30.
    .....

    Administration officials said the money was taken from drinking-water projects because such projects have been allocated $2.8 billion through 2005, of which only $14 million has been channeled to projects.
    So $14 million has provided drinking water to 4.5 million people. Total population of Iraq is over 22 million as per this. A quick estimate is that $70 million can provide water to all of 22 million Iraqi population. So either they don't need $2.8 billion or even $184 million for water or that figure of 4.5 million is wrong. That is if one assume that 100% of Iraqi population was living without drinking water before being liberated by americans.

    I will not go further because many of the following claims are obviously false:

    * Over 400,000 kids have up-to-date immunizations.
    * School attendance is up 80% from levels before the war.
    * Over 1,500 schools have been renovated and rid of the weapons stored there so education can occur.
    * The port of Uhm Qasar was renovated so grain can be off-loaded from ships faster.
    * The country had its first 2 billion barrel export of oil in August.
    * Over 4.5 million people have clean drinking water for the first time ever in Iraq.
    * The country now receives 2 times the electrical power it did before the war.
    * 100% of the hospitals are open and fully staffed, compared to 35% before the war.
    * Elections are taking place in every major city, and city councils are in place.
    * Sewer and water lines are installed in every major city.
    * Over 60,000 police are patrolling the streets.
    * Over 100,000 Iraqi civil defense police are securing the country.
    * Over 80,000 Iraqi soldiers are patrolling the streets side by side with US soldiers.
    * Over 400,000 people have telephones for the first time ever.
    * Students are taught field sanitation and hand washing techniques to prevent the spread of germs.
    * An interim constitution has been signed.
    * Girls are allowed to attend school.
    * Textbooks that don't mention Saddam are in the schools for the first time in 30 years.

  32. #32
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    Originally posted by Jedito
    No, I'm saying that the crime has incresed after the end of the war.
    Maybe the 100,000 prisoners that Saddam released, before his overthrow, has a little something to do with that?

    Would you agree with that?

  33. #33
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    Originally posted by iThink
    . . . I will not go further because many of the following claims are obviously false:
    Your comment would hold up if you actually went through and proved each claim as actually being false, otherwise you're just stating your opinion.

  34. #34
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    I'll add a third angle maybe people didn't have a police station to report crimes and now that they do the number reported has gone up. For all we know it could still be the same.
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  35. #35
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    Yep, I'm all for spirited discussion, but when folks make a claim/statement, at least post some evidence that supports the claim/statement, or just post a "IMO", so we know you're just stating a personal opinion.

    iThink, I look forward to your point-for-point rebutal at what you labelled as "many of the following claims are obviously false".

  36. #36
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    Probably, if you doubt about the facts, you can prove us wrong, but I guess that you can't
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  37. #37
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    Originally posted by Aussie Bob
    Maybe the 100,000 prisoners that Saddam released, before his overthrow, has a little something to do with that?

    Would you agree with that?
    I don't know. Do you?
    I just expressed a fact, crime has raised AFTER the end of the war.
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  38. #38
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    Dec 2003
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    Last time i checked the real war wasn't in Iraq but in Afghanistan(You know that other little country?). Americans(Yes that means those fat Politicians as well) seem to think just throw money at the problem and it will be solved, sorry not the case. In 5-10 years nothing will change(Forcing a country to accept American ways has never worked very well in the past) and Iraq will probably have another dictator in place(Nice waste of money huh?). The Middle East is always riddled with conflict, always has been and always will be.

    There are far worse places/dictators around the world that make Iraq/Saddam look like a saint - not to mention our own problems in America. Hell why not spend that 500 Billion+ in America were it belongs instead of raising my taxes just so we have to go back there in another 10 years to "fix" what we caused?

  39. #39
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    Originally posted by Jedito
    I don't know. Do you?

    Yes. I do believe that releasing 100,000 prisoners, would have a serious impact on the crime rate. Add that with the obvious leadership vacuum, and you have a deadly mix. To doubt 100,000 released prisoners would have no effect on crime rates, is self delusion at the extreme.
    I just expressed a fact, crime has raised AFTER the end of the war.
    I never disputed it didn't. I just wanted some numbers.

  40. #40
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    Originally posted by Jedito
    Probably, if you doubt about the facts, you can prove us wrong, but I guess that you can't
    If you can't backup your so called "facts" with strong supporting evidence, then don't bother making them.

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