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[Acroplex]

US general suspended over abuse

A US general has been suspended in Iraq over the alleged abuse of prisoners by US troops in jails she ran.

Brigadier General Janis Karpinski is among seven officers being investigated following claims that soldiers under their command mistreated detainees.

The army confirmed the suspension after US television broadcast images of US soldiers allegedly abusing inmates at Abu Ghraib prison near Baghdad.

CBS TV says it has "dozens" of pictures showing a wide range of maltreatment.

Taken by US troops, many of the pictures show American troops watching in apparent approval.

The army announced last month that 17 soldiers had been suspended over the allegations of abuse of prisoners.
Six of them - military police - are facing court martial.

CBS said an army investigation had concluded that Gen Karpinski's "lack of leadership and clear standards" led to problems in Abu Ghraib and three other prisons for which she was responsible.

The army has made no formal charges against her. She is the subject of an investigation that could result in a written reprimand, AFP news agency reported.


'Appalled'

Brig Gen Mark Kimmitt told CBS the army was "appalled" by the behaviour of its soldiers.

Gen Kimmitt, the deputy head of coalition forces in Iraq, said the suspected abusers "let their fellow soldiers down".

But, he said, the few suspects were "not representative of the 150,000 soldiers that are over here... Don't judge your army based on the actions of a few," he urged Americans.

CBS says the pictures it obtained show a wide range of abuses, including:

Prisoners with wires attached to their genitals

A dog attacking a prisoner

Prisoners being forced to simulate having sex with each other

A detainee with an abusive word written on his body.

The prison where the abuses are alleged to have taken place was a notorious torture centre during the Saddam Hussein era.

Bob Baer, a former CIA operative with extensive Iraq experience, told CBS: "If there [was] ever a reason to get rid of Saddam Hussein, it's Abu Ghraib [prison]."

No guidance

The station spoke to one of the six soldiers charged, Sergeant Chip Frederick - a reservist whose full-time job is as a prison officer in the US state of Virginia.

Sgt Frederick said he and his fellow reservists had never been told how to deal with prisoners, or what lines should not be crossed.
"We had no training whatsoever," he said.

"I kept asking my chain of command for certain things... like rules and regulations. And it just wasn't happening," he said.

He said he never saw a copy of the Geneva Conventions - which govern the treatment of prisoners - until after he was charged.

The Army investigation confirmed that reservists at Abu Ghraib had not been trained in Geneva Convention rules.

The military police officers have been charged by the US Army with crimes ranging from assault and maltreatment to indecent acts against prisoners.

The soldiers in question reportedly were assisting interrogators from US intelligence agencies.

Last month, when the six military police officers were charged, an Army spokesman said the alleged crimes involved fewer than 20 prisoners and happened around November and December.

The charges include conspiracy, dereliction of duty, cruelty, maltreatment, assault and indecent acts with another.

Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/h...st/3669331.stm

Published: 2004/04/29 11:41:56 GMT

© BBC MMIV

[WebDev]

Oh please, like you need to read the geneva conventions to understand what constitutes human decency.

[RossH]

Yet the other side will show no decency to our soldiers if they capture them. They will torture and mame them if they catch them.

I say we go back to the old way of fighting arab extremeist. We do not allow them to surrender and once they are killed we bury them with pig carcasses so they can never meet their god.

[phill2003]

Originally posted by dk2
Yet the other side will show no decency to our soldiers if they capture them. They will torture and mame them if they catch them.

I say we go back to the old way of fighting arab extremeist. We do not allow them to surrender and once they are killed we bury them with pig carcasses so they can never meet their god.

hmmm what you say is true, they would not treat our soldiers any better but does this make it right? does this make us any better than them?

[RossH]

Who cares about being "better", I care about winning.

This reminds me of a time when I was younger. A kid had pulled a knife on my buddy outside of school. So the next day when I saw him in school I went up and punched him in the face, got him in the headlock and stuck my thumb in his eye, then when he collapsed on the ground I kicked him twice in the head. Well the principal called my father and he came in. When my dad came in the principal immediately started yelling at him (bad move). My principal said "How could your son kick someone in the head while they are on the ground" and my dad looked him right in the eyes and said "Because it's to hard to do while they are standing up". My principal just looked bewildered and then said "Well thats not fair fighting" and my dad said "I never taught him how to fight fair, I taught him how to win."

Moral of the story: When you fight, you don't fight fair, you fight to win.

[Hiccups]

I saw the 60 Minutes report last night and it was horrible. Not only did they do the stuff, they took pictures of it to pass around, and some of the photos showed them standing there by the naked prisoners, posing with big smiles on their faces, like hunters standing by a deer they just shot or something. It was sick.

It doesn't matter if they would treat us any better or not, that's not the point. The people who did these things to the prisoners are sadistic and I hope they will have the maximum penalty available imposed on them.

As to the excuses about not having the training or reading the Geneva Convention - give me a flippin' break. Does anyone need special training or to read a document to know you shouldn't strip prisoners naked, put bags over their head, apply wires to their bodies etc.?

Besides the total nastiness of what they did, they have hurt all their decent fellow military members with their actions. It only takes a few sick, sadistic idiots to make them all look bad, and that's probably just as bad, if not even worse, as what they did to the prisoners.

[iThink]

This one has more details:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/...in614063.shtml

Frederick is charged with maltreatment for allegedly participating in and setting up a photo, and for posing in a photograph by sitting on top of a detainee. He is charged with an indecent act for observing one scene. He is also charged with assault for allegedly striking detainees – and ordering detainees to strike each other.

60 Minutes II talked with him by phone from Baghdad, where he is awaiting court martial.

Frederick told us he will plead not guilty, claiming the way the Army was running the prison led to the abuse of prisoners.

“We had no support, no training whatsoever. And I kept asking my chain of command for certain things...like rules and regulations,” says Frederick. “And it just wasn't happening."

This guy sounds like a retard. Don't they have any IQ test while recruiting for the army in U.S.A?

[RossH]

Hemm lets see....

You are in a foreign country many miles away from family, friends and security. You spend everyday wondering if your going to die. You fight many gun battles against these extremist. You grow close to your fellow soldiers as they are your new family. Now a group of these extremeist attacks a convoy you and your buddies are in and kills a couple of your good close friends, Before these extremeist can get away they are captured.

Now your telling me that you wouldn't do anything to them. You can't expect to send people out to die and get shot at and then expect them to treat the people shooting at them courtiously.

[Hiccups]

Yes, you can, and should, expect exactly that. I don't think they need to be treated like a guest in your house, but in a decent, human manner, yes. I wouldn't say you could expect them to LIKE treating them in a decent manner, but that's (treating them decently) exactly what they are supposed to do.

[iThink]

Originally posted by dk2
Hemm lets see....

You are in a foreign country many miles away from family, friends and security. You spend everyday wondering if your going to die. You fight many gun battles against these extremist. You grow close to your fellow soldiers as they are your new family. Now a group of these extremeist attacks a convoy you and your buddies are in and kills a couple of your good close friends, Before these extremeist can get away they are captured.

Now your telling me that you wouldn't do anything to them. You can't expect to send people out to die and get shot at and then expect them to treat the people shooting at them courtiously.

dk2,

If you read news at msnbc.com or cnn.com daily then you will find that in Iraq for every American soldier killed around 100 unarmed Iraqi civilians have been killed in last one year. Some news stories put this number at 10 Iraqis killed for every american killed. So Iraqis are getting more than their fair share of dead bodies.

I believe that no one can argue with likes of you who have been taught by their parents "how to win" instead of decency.

[Jedito]

Originally posted by dk2
Who cares about being "better", I care about winning.



Moral of the story: When you fight, you don't fight fair, you fight to win.

How to win? this guys are prissioners!!!
They are not fighting anymore.
What a lack of decency, please!

[sasha]

Originally posted by dk2
Moral of the story: When you fight, you don't fight fair, you fight to win.

So according to you there is really nothing wrong with suicide bombers or September 11 attacks. They were just fighitng to win and who cares about morals, right?

[RossH]

First of all to Ithink:

Please show me the exact stats of where for every one US soldier that dies 100 unarmed Iraqi's die.

To Jedito:

They are prisoners, to be a prisoner they had to have been doing something bad. A lack of decency, maybe. Lets not forget what they do to our troops though. I say we treat them the same.

To sasha:

No there is something wrong with the suicide bombers and the september 11th attacks. Yes these extremeist are fighting to win and we need to do the same.

What you forget is the september 11th attacks targeted civilians (as do many suicide bombers).

You can't fight a limited war (look at Vietnam). If your going to fight a war then you better fight to the fullest.

[Jedito]

Originally posted by dk2
First of all to Ithink:

Please show me the exact stats of where for every one US soldier that dies 100 unarmed Iraqi's die.

To Jedito:

They are prisoners, to be a prisoner they had to have been doing something bad. A lack of decency, maybe. Lets not forget what they do to our troops though. I say we treat them the same.

Or maybe they were soldiers?

You're incredible, you try to justify even the lowest thing done by the coalition troops.
Like make prisioner jerk each others... how that may help to a (Illegal) war?

Sometimes I really can't believe how people can be so blinded by the bad named "patriotism".

[RossH]

I'm not blinded by patriotism. If you have ever read anything I have ever said about the Iraq war you would know that. I don't believe we should be in Iraq.

Calling the war illegal is outright stupid. Why is it illegal?

I just believe if your going to fight, you take no prisoners and you do anything/everything necessary to win. If that means tourturing enemy troops so more won't fight, then so be it.