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  1. #1
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    * US general suspended over abuse of Iraqi POWs

    US general suspended over abuse

    A US general has been suspended in Iraq over the alleged abuse of prisoners by US troops in jails she ran.

    Brigadier General Janis Karpinski is among seven officers being investigated following claims that soldiers under their command mistreated detainees.

    The army confirmed the suspension after US television broadcast images of US soldiers allegedly abusing inmates at Abu Ghraib prison near Baghdad.

    CBS TV says it has "dozens" of pictures showing a wide range of maltreatment.

    Taken by US troops, many of the pictures show American troops watching in apparent approval.

    The army announced last month that 17 soldiers had been suspended over the allegations of abuse of prisoners.
    Six of them - military police - are facing court martial.

    CBS said an army investigation had concluded that Gen Karpinski's "lack of leadership and clear standards" led to problems in Abu Ghraib and three other prisons for which she was responsible.

    The army has made no formal charges against her. She is the subject of an investigation that could result in a written reprimand, AFP news agency reported.


    'Appalled'

    Brig Gen Mark Kimmitt told CBS the army was "appalled" by the behaviour of its soldiers.

    Gen Kimmitt, the deputy head of coalition forces in Iraq, said the suspected abusers "let their fellow soldiers down".

    But, he said, the few suspects were "not representative of the 150,000 soldiers that are over here... Don't judge your army based on the actions of a few," he urged Americans.

    CBS says the pictures it obtained show a wide range of abuses, including:

    Prisoners with wires attached to their genitals

    A dog attacking a prisoner

    Prisoners being forced to simulate having sex with each other

    A detainee with an abusive word written on his body.

    The prison where the abuses are alleged to have taken place was a notorious torture centre during the Saddam Hussein era.

    Bob Baer, a former CIA operative with extensive Iraq experience, told CBS: "If there [was] ever a reason to get rid of Saddam Hussein, it's Abu Ghraib [prison]."

    No guidance

    The station spoke to one of the six soldiers charged, Sergeant Chip Frederick - a reservist whose full-time job is as a prison officer in the US state of Virginia.

    Sgt Frederick said he and his fellow reservists had never been told how to deal with prisoners, or what lines should not be crossed.
    "We had no training whatsoever," he said.

    "I kept asking my chain of command for certain things... like rules and regulations. And it just wasn't happening," he said.

    He said he never saw a copy of the Geneva Conventions - which govern the treatment of prisoners - until after he was charged.

    The Army investigation confirmed that reservists at Abu Ghraib had not been trained in Geneva Convention rules.

    The military police officers have been charged by the US Army with crimes ranging from assault and maltreatment to indecent acts against prisoners.

    The soldiers in question reportedly were assisting interrogators from US intelligence agencies.

    Last month, when the six military police officers were charged, an Army spokesman said the alleged crimes involved fewer than 20 prisoners and happened around November and December.

    The charges include conspiracy, dereliction of duty, cruelty, maltreatment, assault and indecent acts with another.

    Story from BBC NEWS:
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/h...st/3669331.stm

    Published: 2004/04/29 11:41:56 GMT

    © BBC MMIV
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  2. #2
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    Oh please, like you need to read the geneva conventions to understand what constitutes human decency.
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  3. #3
    Yet the other side will show no decency to our soldiers if they capture them. They will torture and mame them if they catch them.

    I say we go back to the old way of fighting arab extremeist. We do not allow them to surrender and once they are killed we bury them with pig carcasses so they can never meet their god.
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  4. #4
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    Originally posted by dk2
    Yet the other side will show no decency to our soldiers if they capture them. They will torture and mame them if they catch them.

    I say we go back to the old way of fighting arab extremeist. We do not allow them to surrender and once they are killed we bury them with pig carcasses so they can never meet their god.

    hmmm what you say is true, they would not treat our soldiers any better but does this make it right? does this make us any better than them?
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  5. #5
    Who cares about being "better", I care about winning.

    This reminds me of a time when I was younger. A kid had pulled a knife on my buddy outside of school. So the next day when I saw him in school I went up and punched him in the face, got him in the headlock and stuck my thumb in his eye, then when he collapsed on the ground I kicked him twice in the head. Well the principal called my father and he came in. When my dad came in the principal immediately started yelling at him (bad move). My principal said "How could your son kick someone in the head while they are on the ground" and my dad looked him right in the eyes and said "Because it's to hard to do while they are standing up". My principal just looked bewildered and then said "Well thats not fair fighting" and my dad said "I never taught him how to fight fair, I taught him how to win."

    Moral of the story: When you fight, you don't fight fair, you fight to win.
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  6. #6
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    I saw the 60 Minutes report last night and it was horrible. Not only did they do the stuff, they took pictures of it to pass around, and some of the photos showed them standing there by the naked prisoners, posing with big smiles on their faces, like hunters standing by a deer they just shot or something. It was sick.

    It doesn't matter if they would treat us any better or not, that's not the point. The people who did these things to the prisoners are sadistic and I hope they will have the maximum penalty available imposed on them.

    As to the excuses about not having the training or reading the Geneva Convention - give me a flippin' break. Does anyone need special training or to read a document to know you shouldn't strip prisoners naked, put bags over their head, apply wires to their bodies etc.?

    Besides the total nastiness of what they did, they have hurt all their decent fellow military members with their actions. It only takes a few sick, sadistic idiots to make them all look bad, and that's probably just as bad, if not even worse, as what they did to the prisoners.
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  7. #7
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    This one has more details:

    http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/...in614063.shtml

    Frederick is charged with maltreatment for allegedly participating in and setting up a photo, and for posing in a photograph by sitting on top of a detainee. He is charged with an indecent act for observing one scene. He is also charged with assault for allegedly striking detainees – and ordering detainees to strike each other.

    60 Minutes II talked with him by phone from Baghdad, where he is awaiting court martial.

    Frederick told us he will plead not guilty, claiming the way the Army was running the prison led to the abuse of prisoners.

    “We had no support, no training whatsoever. And I kept asking my chain of command for certain things...like rules and regulations,” says Frederick. “And it just wasn't happening."
    This guy sounds like a retard. Don't they have any IQ test while recruiting for the army in U.S.A?
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  8. #8
    Hemm lets see....

    You are in a foreign country many miles away from family, friends and security. You spend everyday wondering if your going to die. You fight many gun battles against these extremist. You grow close to your fellow soldiers as they are your new family. Now a group of these extremeist attacks a convoy you and your buddies are in and kills a couple of your good close friends, Before these extremeist can get away they are captured.

    Now your telling me that you wouldn't do anything to them. You can't expect to send people out to die and get shot at and then expect them to treat the people shooting at them courtiously.
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  9. #9
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    Yes, you can, and should, expect exactly that. I don't think they need to be treated like a guest in your house, but in a decent, human manner, yes. I wouldn't say you could expect them to LIKE treating them in a decent manner, but that's (treating them decently) exactly what they are supposed to do.
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  10. #10
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    Originally posted by dk2
    Hemm lets see....

    You are in a foreign country many miles away from family, friends and security. You spend everyday wondering if your going to die. You fight many gun battles against these extremist. You grow close to your fellow soldiers as they are your new family. Now a group of these extremeist attacks a convoy you and your buddies are in and kills a couple of your good close friends, Before these extremeist can get away they are captured.

    Now your telling me that you wouldn't do anything to them. You can't expect to send people out to die and get shot at and then expect them to treat the people shooting at them courtiously.
    dk2,

    If you read news at msnbc.com or cnn.com daily then you will find that in Iraq for every American soldier killed around 100 unarmed Iraqi civilians have been killed in last one year. Some news stories put this number at 10 Iraqis killed for every american killed. So Iraqis are getting more than their fair share of dead bodies.

    I believe that no one can argue with likes of you who have been taught by their parents "how to win" instead of decency.
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  11. #11
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    Originally posted by dk2
    Who cares about being "better", I care about winning.



    Moral of the story: When you fight, you don't fight fair, you fight to win.
    How to win? this guys are prissioners!!!
    They are not fighting anymore.
    What a lack of decency, please!
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  12. #12
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    Originally posted by dk2
    Moral of the story: When you fight, you don't fight fair, you fight to win.
    So according to you there is really nothing wrong with suicide bombers or September 11 attacks. They were just fighitng to win and who cares about morals, right?
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  13. #13
    First of all to Ithink:

    Please show me the exact stats of where for every one US soldier that dies 100 unarmed Iraqi's die.

    To Jedito:

    They are prisoners, to be a prisoner they had to have been doing something bad. A lack of decency, maybe. Lets not forget what they do to our troops though. I say we treat them the same.

    To sasha:

    No there is something wrong with the suicide bombers and the september 11th attacks. Yes these extremeist are fighting to win and we need to do the same.

    What you forget is the september 11th attacks targeted civilians (as do many suicide bombers).

    You can't fight a limited war (look at Vietnam). If your going to fight a war then you better fight to the fullest.
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  14. #14
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    Originally posted by dk2
    First of all to Ithink:

    Please show me the exact stats of where for every one US soldier that dies 100 unarmed Iraqi's die.

    To Jedito:

    They are prisoners, to be a prisoner they had to have been doing something bad. A lack of decency, maybe. Lets not forget what they do to our troops though. I say we treat them the same.
    Or maybe they were soldiers?

    You're incredible, you try to justify even the lowest thing done by the coalition troops.
    Like make prisioner jerk each others... how that may help to a (Illegal) war?

    Sometimes I really can't believe how people can be so blinded by the bad named "patriotism".
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  15. #15
    I'm not blinded by patriotism. If you have ever read anything I have ever said about the Iraq war you would know that. I don't believe we should be in Iraq.

    Calling the war illegal is outright stupid. Why is it illegal?

    I just believe if your going to fight, you take no prisoners and you do anything/everything necessary to win. If that means tourturing enemy troops so more won't fight, then so be it.
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  16. #16
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    [QUOTE]Originally posted by dk2
    [B]
    They are prisoners, to be a prisoner they had to have been doing something bad.
    Huh? They're POWs for the most part. So does that mean you think that Americans soldiers being held prisoner by Iraq "must have been doing something bad?"

    Does your feeling that anyone who's a prisoner must have been doing something wrong apply to US prosions and jails, too? Even for people awaiting trial? Do you actually think about this stuff before you write it?

    You are in a foreign country many miles away from family, friends and security. You spend everyday wondering if your going to die. You fight many gun battles against these extremist. You grow close to your fellow soldiers as they are your new family. Now a group of these extremeist attacks a convoy you and your buddies are in and kills a couple of your good close friends, Before these extremeist can get away they are captured.
    You are in the US military many miles from family friends and security. You're expected to be disciplined and professional, and specifically are expected to provide for security and order in an overcrowded prison. Can't do it? You don't belong in the military. So, if the reports from the military that they've identified these people and they're being held for court martial are accurate, it's the right thing and best for all concerned.

    [Edit]
    I just read that linked CBS story. Seems like General Kimmet has it exactly right: “at the end of the day, this is probably more about leadership, supervision, setting standards, abiding by the Army values and understanding what's right, and having the guts to say what's right.”

    Defending and advocating these kinds of actions by our American soldiers is an embarassment to those of them, by far the majority, who would find these things reprehensible. Anyone who thinks that the typical American soldier would do this, let alone could do it, isn't a patriot or a supporter of our troops, in my book.
    Last edited by JayC; 04-29-2004 at 02:08 PM.
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  17. #17
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    Originally posted by dk2
    If that means tourturing enemy troops so more won't fight, then so be it.
    Which will of course have the opposite effect and will act as recruitment film for the insurgents in Iraq.
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  18. #18
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    Originally posted by dk2

    Calling the war illegal is outright stupid. Why is it illegal?
    From the point of view of International Rights, this is not a legitimate attack.Preventives attacks are prohibited by the UN. From the ethical and moral point of view, well, what can we say?

    I just believe if your going to fight, you take no prisoners and you do anything/everything necessary to win. If that means tourturing enemy troops so more won't fight, then so be it. [/B]
    You really scary me!!
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  19. #19
    Originally posted by JayC
    Huh? They're POWs for the most part. So does that mean you think that Americans soldiers being held prisoner by Iraq "must have been doing something bad?"
    Let me split this up. To an Iraqi's eyes yes the US Soldier was doing something bad, it's all in your perspective.

    Does your feeling that anyone who's a prisoner must have been doing something wrong apply to US prosions and jails, too? Even for people awaiting trial? Do you actually think about this stuff before you write it?


    No your right every person in jail is innocent and wrongly convicted. Yes I believe in innocent until proven guilty.

    POWs can't and shouldn't have trials. American law dosen't apply to POWS and shouldn't. If it did it would cost the tax payers trillions to have a lengthy trial and convict each POWs.

    Yes I sit down and think about what I write, do you?

    You are in the US military many miles from family friends and security. You're expected to be disciplined and professional, and specifically are expected to provide for security and order in an overcrowded prison. Can't do it? You don't belong in the military. So, if the reports from the military that they've identified these people and they're being held for court martial are accurate, it's the right thing and best for all concerned.
    Disciplined and professional in war when your fellow soldiers are being killed by exposives on the side of the road. While your country men are killed and then drug through the streets while their bodies are beaten with sticks.

    You do me a favor, you go to one of the mothers of those contractors and tell her her son died for an illegal war. You tell her that these prisoners deserve to have 5 square meals a day and pray to Allah. You tell her that they should get everything they never gave her son.

    We are fighting a war where the other side will use any and all methods to kill our troops. I say we do the same. If they capture our troops and execute them, then we kill their troops.
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  20. #20
    Originally posted by Jedito
    From the point of view of International Rights, this is not a legitimate attack.Preventives attacks are prohibited by the UN. From the ethical and moral point of view, well, what can we say?



    You really scary me!!
    International rights are a joke.

    Do me a favor and look at every engagement UN troops have gotten in. They get their butts handed to them, why, because they are more worried about the rights of the enemy they are fighting then the right of their own troops to live.
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  21. #21
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    dk2,
    So you are saying the end justifies the means? That is a terribly glib view. I suppose we should just drop a couple nukes on them, right? That way we won't have to loose a single person. We can just move right in and clean up the mess.

    While we are at it, lets just kill the people on welfare, drug addicts, criminals, and anyone else who doesn't meet our standards.

    Oh wait, since you assaulted that kid back in school that would make you a criminal.


    ---
    an eye for an eye and the whole world goes blind.

    a battle won by force alone is only half over.
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  22. #22
    I have no problem using nuclear weapons in this if it meant saving US Soldiers lives.

    Why are you talking about standards when we are talking about war?
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  23. #23
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    Originally posted by dk2
    I have no problem using nuclear weapons in this if it meant saving US Soldiers lives.

    Why are you talking about standards when we are talking about war?
    so am I,

    the war on drugs
    the war on welfare/poverty
    the war on crime.
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  24. #24
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    Originally posted by dk2
    We are fighting a war where the other side will use any and all methods to kill our troops.
    As will we to kill theirs. No one's saying in this thread that we shouldn't be doing that, whether it's the AC-130 gunships that have been hammering Falujah or just overwhelmingly outnumbering insurgents with infantry.

    But killing troops in battle and torturing prisoners are two different things -- strategically, politically, and morally. It takes just a hint of maturity to get beyond your black and white viewpoint of war.
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  25. #25
    JayC,

    So your saying if you capture a top commander (or terrorist) and he has information that could potentially save thousands of your troops/civilians lives it is not okay to tourture him to get that information?
    Last edited by RossH; 04-29-2004 at 02:47 PM.
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  26. #26
    Originally posted by ambirex
    so am I,

    the war on drugs
    the war on welfare/poverty
    the war on crime.
    Those are not wars....it sounds good in politics, but atleast be real.
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  27. #27
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    Originally posted by dk2
    JayC,

    So your saying if you capture a top commander (or terrorist) and he has information that could potentially save thousands of your troops/civilians lives it is not okay to tourture him to get that information?
     

    That's quite a stretch and deviation from the original issue. Soldiers were humiliating and torturing POWs for no discernable reason other than comedy and entertainment. By no stretch of the imagination should that be tolerated or expected, you certainly would be outraged if you saw it being done to your country's soldiers.
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  28. #28
    Originally posted by WebDev
    Oh please, like you need to read the geneva conventions to understand what constitutes human decency.
    Sadly it seems that the only ones interested for the most part in abiding the conventions is the united states, save the actions of the few in this instance.
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  29. #29
    I don't think humiliation really needs to be done, the making them do sexual acts and such.

    Now torture, if it serves a purpose, I'm all for.

    Umm it is done to our soldiers all the time.
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  30. #30
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    Originally posted by dk2
    Those are not wars....it sounds good in politics, but atleast be real.
    Tell that to the FBI, DEA, and the ATF.

    Originally posted by dk2
    Umm it is done to our soldiers all the time.
    And if every one jumped off a bridge should you do it too?
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  31. #31
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    Originally posted by dk2
    Umm it is done to our soldiers all the time.
     

    Since when do you have to become your enemy to defeat them?
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  32. #32
    You don't have to become your enemy, you have to become more ruthless then your enemy.
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  33. #33
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    Originally posted by dk2
    First of all to Ithink:

    Please show me the exact stats of where for every one US soldier that dies 100 unarmed Iraqi's die.

    From today's report on msnbc.com ( http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4824213/ )

    At least 736 U.S. troops have died in Iraq since the war began in March 2003. As many as 1,200 Iraqis also have been killed this month.

    From October, 2003 article on BBC.co.uk ( http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3223523.stm )

    About 13,000 Iraqis, including as many as 4,300 civilians, were killed during the major combat phase of the Iraq war, according to a US research group.
    From http://www.iraqbodycount.net/ 8958 to 10810 Iraqi civilians have died as on 28-April-2004.

    dk2,

    I hope you can calculate the ratio. It is certainly over 1:100
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  34. #34
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    Originally posted by dk2
    I don't think humiliation really needs to be done, the making them do sexual acts and such.

    Now torture, if it serves a purpose, I'm all for.

    Oh Geez, that tell me everything.
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  35. #35
    Originally posted by dk2

    Now torture, if it serves a purpose, I'm all for.

    "human dignity" ... ringing any bells for you?
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  36. #36
    Originally posted by iThink
    From today's report on msnbc.com ( http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4824213/ )




    From October, 2003 article on BBC.co.uk ( http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3223523.stm )



    From http://www.iraqbodycount.net/ 8958 to 10810 Iraqi civilians have died as on 28-April-2004.

    dk2,

    I hope you can calculate the ratio. It is certainly over 1:100
    Okay on the msnbc website 736 US troops killed this month and 1200 Iraqi's. It dosen't specify if those Iraqi's were fighters or civilians.

    -

    On the BBC, I don't believe the BBC %90 of the time anyway, it says this study was done by the PDA. Here is the PDA website:

    http://www.comw.org/pda/staff.html -3 staff members and an intern compiled this report.. Not to mention all are avid liberals, even more liberal then most democrats but thats okay.

    Their report says that between 11,000 and 15,000 Iraqi's were killed during the time of major combat operations. What did they base this off of mostly, press reports. I remember on 9/11 press reports had anywhere from 10,000 to 50,000 dead.

    It also says that of the 13,000 killed only %30 were non-cobatants, lets do the math:

    13000 * .3 = 3900 | thats how many civilians they said were killed during major combat operations.

    -

    Iraqbodycount

    Lets see their mission statement:

    This is a human security project to establish an independent and comprehensive public database of media-reported civilian deaths in Iraq resulting directly from military action by the USA and its allies in 2003.

    again media reported deaths.

    Lets see what their founder has to say:

    Professor Herold commented: “I strongly support this initiative. The counting of civilian dead looms ever more importantly for at least two reasons: military sources and their corporate mainstream media backers seek to portray the advent of precision guided weaponry as inflicting at most, minor, incidental civilian casualties when, in truth, such is is not the case; and the major source of opposition to these modern ‘wars’ remains an informed, articulate general public which retains a commitment to the international humanitarian covenants of war at a time when most organized bodies and so-called ‘experts’ have walked away from them”.

    If you read the entire mission statement these people are greatly biased. They don't want war in any form, but hey lets see what else we can find.

    Have you even looked at their database? They are including Iraqi's who are killed by roadside bombs made by Iraqi's:

    102 31 Jan 2004 AM Mosul police station car bomb 8 9 AP 31 Jan
    AFP 31 Ja

    come on
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  37. #37
    Originally posted by dravenmooree
    "human dignity" ... ringing any bells for you?
    So you are saying that even if it is to save the lives of troops/civilians the US should never torture an enemy?
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  38. #38
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    The POWs were not a threat to their captors. And torture is forbidden by the Geneva Convention. How would you like to see US soldiers tortured by Iraqis?

    The US sends insurgents in Guantanamo, Cuba because under the US constitution if they are held on US soil they have rights.
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  39. #39
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    Originally posted by dk2
    What did they base this off of mostly, press reports. I remember on 9/11 press reports had anywhere from 10,000 to 50,000 dead.
    Any reports of Iraqi deaths have to come from the press, because the Pentagon is refusing to divulge that information.

    The reports you're talking about from 9/11 that were too high were from the morning it happened; they were estimates of how many people might be killed because it wasn't yet known if people would be able to get out of the bulding.
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  40. #40
    Originally posted by timechange.com
    The POWs were not a threat to their captors. And torture is forbidden by the Geneva Convention. How would you like to see US soldiers tortured by Iraqis?

    The US sends insurgents in Guantanamo, Cuba because under the US constitution if they are held on US soil they have rights.
    US soldiers are tourtured, thats what you don't get!!!
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