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  1. #1
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    * Secret Service questions student on drawings

    PROSSER, Washington (AP) -- Secret Service agents questioned a high school student about anti-war drawings he did for an art class, one of which depicted President Bush's head on a stick.

    Another pencil-and-ink drawing portrayed Bush as a devil launching a missile, with a caption reading "End the war -- on terrorism."

    The 15-year-old boy's art teacher at Prosser High School turned the drawings over to school administrators, who notified police, who called the Secret Service.

    "We involve the police anytime we have a concern," Prosser Superintendent Ray Tolcacher told the Tri-City Herald newspaper.

    Secret Service agents interviewed the boy last Friday. The student, who was not arrested, has not been identified.

    The school district disciplined him, but district officials refused to say what the punishment was. Tolcacher said the boy was not suspended.

    The artwork was apparently part of an assignment to keep a notebook of drawings, according to Kevin Cravens, a friend of the boy's family.

    The drawing that drew the most notice showed a man in what appeared to be Middle Eastern-style clothing, holding a rifle. He was also holding a stick with an oversize head of the president on it.

    The student said the head was enlarged because it was intended to be an effigy, Cravens said. The caption called for an end to the war in Iraq.

    A message left by The Associated Press with an after-hours duty officer with the Secret Service in Washington, D.C., was not immediately returned on Monday.

    "If this 15-year-old kid in Prosser is perceived as a threat to the president, then we are living in '1984'," Cravens said.

    Tolcacher insisted it was not a freedom of speech issue, but a concern over the depiction of violence.

    "From what I saw, [school officials] were right to be concerned," Prosser Police Chief Win Taylor said.

  2. #2
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    Re: Secret Service questions student on drawings

    Originally posted by timechange.com
    Tolcacher insisted it was not a freedom of speech issue, but a concern over the depiction of violence.
    So now the Secret Service is getting involved in every depiction of violence? LOL

    5 years ago the picture would simply have been laughed. Now a kid is almost arrested over such a thing. A good example of where our freedoms (of speech & expression) and our rights are going...

  3. #3
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    I can almost guarantee the child was of middle eastern descent.
    Otherwise, they would have shrugged it off.
    Terrible..
    They have nothing better to do.
    Sure, you could call the guidance counselor.. but not the Secret Service!!

  4. #4
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    In related news:


    Blog-Tracking May Gain Ground Among U.S. Intelligence Officials

    Blogs, short for Web logs, are personal online journals. Individuals post them on Web sites to report or comment on news especially, but also on their personal lives or most any subject.


    Some blogs are whimsical and deal with "soft" subjects. Others, though, are cutting edge in delivering information and opinion.


    As a result, some analysts say U.S. intelligence and law enforcement officials might be starting to track blogs for important bits of information. This interest is a sign of how far Web media such as blogs have come in reshaping the data-collection habits of intelligence professionals and others, even with the knowledge that the accuracy of what's reported in some blogs is questionable.


    Still, a panel of folks who work in the U.S. intelligence field - some of them spies or former spies - discussed this month at a conference in Washington the idea of tracking blogs.


    "News and intelligence is about listening with a critical ear, and blogs are just another conversation to listen to and evaluate. They also are closer to (some situations) and may serve as early alerts," said Jock Gill, a former adviser on Internet media to President Clinton (news - web sites), in a later phone interview, after he spoke on the panel.


    Some panel and conference participants, because of their profession, could not be identified. But another who could is Robert Steele, another blog booster. The former U.S. intelligence officer said "absolutely" that blogs are valid sources of intelligence and news, though he said authenticating the information in blogs "leaves a lot to be desired."


    Steele is founder and CEO of consulting firm OSS.Net, which organized the conference. The OSS '04 conference focused on public sources of intelligence. (OSS stands for open source solutions. In this case, open source is an intelligence term, not a reference to Linux (news - web sites) and open source software.)


    China Wants To Block Blogs


    The CIA (news - web sites) and FBI (news - web sites) haven't publicly commented about use of blogs in their work, but many D.C. observers believe both agencies monitor certain blogs.


    At least one nation, China, is actively tracking blogs. It's also reportedly trying to block blogs. Several press reports earlier this year said the government shut two blogging services and banned access to all Web logs by Chinese citizens.


    Many journalists write blogs and use other blogs to help find sources or verify facts and rumors. Blogs hail from just about any spot on the globe. They can provide first-hand insights into local events and thinking, even in parts of the world where there's little official information.


    One example is the "Baghdad Blogger."


    In March 2003, as U.S. forces stormed Iraq (news - web sites), one of the few sources on the Iraqi viewpoint was a blog written by a person who turned out to be 29-year-old Iraqi architect Salam Pax, though it's not certain that is his real name.


    Some reporters followed his blog daily, which gave gritty insights into how the war was shaking the lives of Iraqis.


    The U.S. military never publicly acknowledged Pax, but people at the conference say they believe U.S. military officers read the blog.


    Some news organizations valued the blog. Britain's Guardian newspaper was so impressed that it hired Pax in May 2003 to write a biweekly column on life in Baghdad. He's still writing it.


    Blogs last year also provided information during the outbreak of severe acute respiratory syndrome. In China, where the SARS (news - web sites) outbreak began, the government at first said little. But health officials and reporters were able to get a sense of what was happening through blogs, as well as from e-mail and cell phone text messages sent to people outside China. This might have spurred China's blog crackdown.

    Gill says blogs are a good way to uncover news that regular media aren't covering or can't cover. "Blogs may be the best and only channel for such news stories," Gill said.

    NGOs Already Get Attention

    Various U.S. agencies already scan the Web sites of so-called nongovernmental organizations, or NGOs, for information on political, economic and environmental issues. So tracking blogs isn't a big step. And there are software products and online services for this task.

    While blog postings are voluntary and available to anyone to read, some observers say blog monitoring by governments or the media raises civil liberties and privacy issues. One such critic is James Love, director of the Ralph Nader (news - web sites)-affiliated Consumer Project on Technology.

    "When you're conducting surveillance where you have no expectation of illegal activity, there has to be some threshold to justify such surveillance," Love said.

    Some point to other dangers in using blogs for intelligence or news. Blogs can be used to spread lies or disinformation.

    It's hard to fact check a blog account of an event in a remote area like Mongolia. Plus, many bloggers don't use their real names. Confirming identities can be hard.

    In Baghdad last September, guerillas fired two surface-to-air missiles at a U.S. military transport, but missed. A blogger in Baghdad who goes by the name "Riverbend" wrote that the plane carried Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, who was then in Iraq.

    The report proved false, but it confused the media.

    Determining blog accuracy is the crucial first step to taking it further, warned Tim Witcher, who spoke at the conference. He's the former Seoul, Korea, bureau chief for Agence France-Presse, a news service. "A blog only becomes news when we can be 100% sure that it's true," he said.

  5. #5
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    Holy crap! When I was in high school the art teacher was the one who always had the "interesting smelling jacket" and mellow disposition. I am almost certain he did not have the SS on his speed-dial.

    Who cares if some 15 year-old finally "gets it" and draws the truth? Has freedom of expression been another silent victim of the "Patriot" Act???

    I am sooooo glad I don't live in that country.


    Very, very sad.

  6. #6
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    That's nothing new. The Secret Service has 3 jobs:

    1. Deal with counterfit issues.
    2. Protect the President and other important officals, diplomats, etc.
    3. Investigate threats against the President and other officials.

    It is not violating first amendment rights in any way, as a threat in any form is against the law.

    Regards,
    Waylon

  7. #7
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    What that kid did was completely out of line, but I don't think it's worth making a big fuss out of.

    He's a 15 year old brainwashed pseudo intellectual emo art student. What do you expect?

  8. #8
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    I heard of this earlier,

    This is plain stupid!!!!!!!!!!!!!! What happened to FREE SPEECH????????

    The Dude

    Tinyurl is the answer for posting long urls!!!

  9. #9
    "If this 15-year-old kid in Prosser is perceived as a threat to the president, then we are living in '1984'," Cravens said.

    Yea, that is what got me

  10. #10
    Who doesn't hate bush? He makes some pretty stupid choices. I don't think what the kid drew was right. Thats my opinion though. With free speech my opinion doesn't matter. What a world we live in.

  11. #11
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    LOL

    Okay, if the Secret Service was notified, they are obligated to "investigate" it regardless of how "little" the threat is...this could have happened 8 years ago and the Secret Service would still have sent a man out to take a look.

    It's their job guys.
    TradeViceroy

  12. #12
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    You can't say or depict anything similar to assisination of U.S presidents. It's an federal offense. Our high school has had similar incidents. No matter how much you hate your president, you can't write anything about KILLING him.

  13. #13
    Originally posted by ToaD
    [B] No matter how much you hate your president, you can't write anything about KILLING him.
    Oh, to live in land of the free...

  14. #14
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    Well, that's not exactly true. You can talk about him all you want, but the moment you say "kill", "murder", etc. then you're in a whole different league.

    It's the same about libel an slander...
    TradeViceroy

  15. #15
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    TREASON! I think some corporal punishment is in order.
    Send him to Iraq and let them have his head on a stick.
    Don't look for a way out.

  16. #16
    Oh, to live in land of the free...
    Free speech is ********, it doesn't exist because if you say anything to abd you get arrested.
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  17. #17
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    The president has been attacked. A 15 year old art student who avoided an onsite shooting at the White House has been arrested by Washington Police and is currently being questioned.

    It has been rumour at this stage that authorities and the state education service was aware of his malicious intents towards the president however embrassingly failed to act, several explicit drawings have been seized. Investigations are underway however this look like another public blow to the intelligence service.

    We spoke to Joe Doe from WebHostingTalk "I am shocked that they failed to act on the suspicions. of the school, they didn't even question him, I am outraged! my daughter who works in White House could very well have been injured too. After 9/11 one would have thought they would be more alert".
    Just the flip side of the coin.
    MattF - Since the start..

  18. #18
    Guys.....this has been going on way before Bush got into office. If you depict or make any threats against the president (no matter your nationality or race) they secret service will come visit you.

    Ilyash, calm down on the everyones out to get the arabs routine...it gets old.

  19. #19
    The Secret Service is there to protect the President. Like a few have already said, if there is ANY possible threat against him reported, they are going to investigate it. That's how it's always been and how it always will be. And it doesn't mean you don't have free speech. People can say or do anything they want, but that doesn't mean there will never be consequences.
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  20. #20
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    I dont think the SS even factors in. It's the idiots who called the SS. I seriously doubt anyone planning to kill the President (if they could even get that far), is going to advertise it with cartoon figures of the President's head on a stick. It's the schools buying into all this "Anyone, even your newborn, could be a terrorist" propaganda..

  21. #21
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    Things like this have become more serious since "Columbine", and similar incidents not the rounds of terrorism going around, but they have a direct effect on it...

    I started drawing War scenes in '95, and it wasnt until after Columbine that I was called to the office from class because I had a drawing with a dead humanoid (wasnt a human, but an bipedal alien) in it. The picture wasnt even one of my "graphic" ones. Guess they didnt want me torrorizing fictional aliens, in a fictional world.

    Before Columbine, nobody cared what I drew and even a couple teachers and fellow students wanted me to draw them participating in the scene as human or an alternate race.

    <analytical rant>
    Hell, just because of columbine, I had to remove details from my images for the fact that I didnt want to be labelled a "bad guy", this was made even worse because I hung out with "goths" (and we all know their stereotype ). Thats what this story is about, only enhanced by the latest definition of "terrorist", and the fright the media and extremists is pouring on us (US population).

    Then I drew my last ever picture (spacecraft) sometime in mid 2000 (I need to update the caption, now that I have a more accurate date when it was drawn) because of all the crap and only made worse by 2 bomb threats at the school I was at. If I was still in shool during this time, I'd probably be public enemy #1.

    However, in my other post about this story I believe this also may have to do something with his record or race (as was suggested). I can see this conversation...

    Teacher: Hey, some middle eastern kid drew this in my class...
    *Teacher shows Police the picture*
    Police: Hey, its the next saddam, or bin laden... Thanks for the tip...
    *Police dial Secret Service*
    Police: Hey we got this hand-drawn picture from a potential terrorist at [location]. Do something about it
    Secret Service Agent: Thanks for the tip...
    *FBI, & Secret Service surround the school guns drawn, helicopters, etc and bust into the class with tear gas, and fully loaded MA-16's, a few snipers up in the trees, etc... * (note the sarcasm, but it may be a reality soon )

    In this case, I wish they could bust the terrorists that murdered my cousin because they thought she was pregnant...

    Drawing is a known avenue for releasing anger, venting, discussing, expression, as well as speaking your mind in imagery. Ask any psychiatrist... Guess its now illegal to draw your feelings and such.

    I should get one of those constitution floormats so I can walk all over it like everyone else
    </analytical rant>

    Anyways... I'm done with this topic...
    Last edited by MGCJerry; 04-28-2004 at 03:11 PM.
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  22. #22
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    Originally posted by MattF
    Just the flip side of the coin.
    A classic example of damned if you do damned if you don't.

    If they investigate they're the Gestapo, if they don't investigate and that one in a million becomes the one then they're incompetent and not doing their job. A quick visit by a field agent to the kid's house and a chat with him and his parents would likely be enough I'd think. Did it need to be a front page story? Or is it even their fault that it is maybe that's just what they DID and it's being blown out of proportion?
    Gary Harris - the artist formerly known as Dixiesys
    resident grumpy redneck

  23. #23
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    Originally posted by dk2
    Guys.....this has been going on way before Bush got into office. If you depict or make any threats against the president (no matter your nationality or race) they secret service will come visit you.

    Ilyash, calm down on the everyones out to get the arabs routine...it gets old.
    I was just speculating.
    And i am probably right.
    Its not like im trying to sound hurt [im not in any way shap or form arab]

    actually.. russian

    But thats beside the point..
    What im saying is..
    I guess i changed my mind, after reading MattF's post.
    However, calling the secret service, is still extreme.
    Maybe principal.. but not secret service.

  24. #24
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    Originally posted by ilyash
    I was just speculating.
    And i am probably right.
    Its not like im trying to sound hurt [im not in any way shap or form arab]

    actually.. russian

    But thats beside the point..
    What im saying is..
    I guess i changed my mind, after reading MattF's post.
    However, calling the secret service, is still extreme.
    Maybe principal.. but not secret service.
    Re-read the article. The teacher told the Principal. The Principal called the police. The police called the Secret Service. That's how it came about.

    Regards,
    Waylon

  25. #25
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    In art, don't they tell you to express your self in a form ot art. He did just that. I see nothing wrong here (bush sucks anyways)

  26. #26
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    This is total ********. Whatever happened to freedom of the press. All it was basically a political cartoon against Bush and the war. I personally do not support the war and anyone who stands in their way will ask the question "why?". I totally support this kid and he should not be punished for creativity.
    Kerry Jones

  27. #27
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    It's a freakin political cartoon. So now the US will arrest all political cartoonists who are not pro-Bush? What? US is now Communist China?

  28. #28
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    Originally posted by hycloud
    It's a freakin political cartoon. So now the US will arrest all political cartoonists who are not pro-Bush? What? US is now Communist China?
    Re-read the article! The school officials felt it was a death threat against the President. In this country, that is against the law. You can't THREATEN TO KILL SOMEONE. Sure, the school officials may have jumped the gun. But, they contacted the Police and showed them the drawings, and with President Bush's head on a stick, they felt it was a threat on his life. Therefore they contacted the Secret Service (as per law), and the rest is, as they say, history.

    Nowhere does the article say he was arrested, it just says he was questioned.

    Regards,
    Waylon

  29. #29
    Originally posted by Velostream
    Re-read the article! The school officials felt it was a death threat against the President.
    Wow, kids these days must sure know how to pose a threat to the "president".

  30. #30
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    Originally posted by net-trend
    Wow, kids these days must sure know how to pose a threat to the "president".
    Well in a society that is ravaged by school shootings and terrorist activity across the globe, school officials don't waste time. If they even think something is a threat, they say something. May sound wrong, but it truly is better to be safe than sorry.

    Regards,
    Waylon

  31. #31
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    Originally posted by webmultitude
    What that kid did was completely out of line, but I don't think it's worth making a big fuss out of.

    He's a 15 year old brainwashed pseudo intellectual emo art student. What do you expect?
    some harsh statements there... do you know the kid personally? if not, your words might make you look arrogant, violent and stupid...

    it's been proven once more that the freedom of speech in the US is just an expression reserved for a virtual world and not a constitutional right, I guess Mike More will have to say something about this, too...

    nevertheless, it's not the SS to blame (for the love of Mike that sounds just like Schutzstaffel...), their job is to investigate when informed of funky stuff, I think the teacher and the cops are just plain stupid...

    Airnine

  32. #32
    Not sure what this has to do with freedom of the press. Press if free to put out what they want but doesn't mean they can't be investigated if authorities are informed of something illegal or dangerous.
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  33. #33
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    Originally posted by Velostream
    Re-read the article! The school officials felt it was a death threat against the President. In this country, that is against the law. You can't THREATEN TO KILL SOMEONE. Sure, the school officials may have jumped the gun. But, they contacted the Police and showed them the drawings, and with President Bush's head on a stick, they felt it was a threat on his life. Therefore they contacted the Secret Service (as per law), and the rest is, as they say, history.

    Nowhere does the article say he was arrested, it just says he was questioned.

    Regards,
    Waylon

    Pulled out of class to be question is arrested in my book. Reread the article, the kid did not THREATEN TO KILL SOMEONE. He drew a political cartoon of a muslim with Pres. Bush's head on his stick.

    "The drawing that drew the most notice showed a man in what appeared to be Middle Eastern-style clothing, holding a rifle. He was also holding a stick with an oversize head of the president on it."

    Communist USA. Political cartoons are going to be banned from now on?

  34. #34
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    Originally posted by hycloud
    Pulled out of class to be question is arrested in my book. Reread the article, the kid did not THREATEN TO KILL SOMEONE. He drew a political cartoon of a muslim with Pres. Bush's head on his stick.

    "The drawing that drew the most notice showed a man in what appeared to be Middle Eastern-style clothing, holding a rifle. He was also holding a stick with an oversize head of the president on it."

    Communist USA. Political cartoons are going to be banned from now on?
    Well your book obviously doesn't know US law. Detained for questioning is not being arrested. Look it up. From the article:

    Secret Service agents interviewed the boy last Friday. The student, who was not arrested, has not been identified.
    Arrested means you are charged with a crime. The kid wasn't charged with a crime. I never said the kid THREATENED TO KILL SOMEONE. I was saying that, according to US law, it is illegal to THREATEN TO KILL SOMEONE.

    Regards,
    Waylon

  35. #35
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    Definition of arrested:

    2. To seize and hold under the authority of law.

    http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=arrested

    The kid was seize and hold under the authority of law. He was arrested in my book.

    So you are saying I could or should be detained and question by the secret service for any political cartoon I've drawn even if it's not a threat?

    I can see it now. Secret service visiting every political cartoonist who is anti-war or anti-bush. That's one of way "influencing" the public to be more pro-bush pro-war.
    Send the secret service in!

  36. #36
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    Originally posted by hycloud
    Definition of arrested:

    2. To seize and hold under the authority of law.

    http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=arrested

    The kid was seize and hold under the authority of law. He was arrested in my book.

    So you are saying I could or should be detained and question by the secret service for any political cartoon I've drawn even if it's not a threat?

    I can see it now. Secret service visiting every political cartoonist who is anti-war or anti-bush. That's one of way "influencing" the public to be more pro-bush pro-war.
    Send the secret service in!
    Now you're just putting words in my mouth. I have not said anything about political cartoons, nor did I say you personally should be detained or arrested for any reason.

    You seem to be convinced that the US is now communist and going after all political cartoonists. Your flaw with this specific case is the fact that this was not your normal political cartoon (i.e. ones published in newspapers, magazines, etc.). And there's also a problem with your logic, if you pick up any papers or magazines from the US you will see Pro-Bush cartoons as well as Anti-Bush cartoons.

    Please, I say this with as much respect as possible, get down from your high horse and stop arguing just to argue.

    EDIT: Typo.

    Regards,
    Waylon

  37. #37
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    No, don't put words in my mouth. I never said they are going after all political cartoonists. I said they were going after all anti-war, anti-war political cartoonist.

    Normal political cartoon? Just because it wasn't published in newspapers, magazines, etc. doesn't mean it shouldn't have the same rights as a "normal political cartoon". I'm sure most political cartoonist started doing political cartoons in Junior high school or high school. I did it myself. Should we stop junior high school students and high school students from doing political cartoons that are anti-war or anti-bush?

    Should a student be detain and question by the secret service if he draws a political cartoon of president bush being eaten by a donkey? or one showing showing pres. bush being pushed out of a plane?

    This is nuts.

  38. #38
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    Excuse me, I neglected to mention anti-war cartoonists on your part.

    I never said it isn't entitled to the same rights. I'm not saying we should stop any artists from anything.

    It's not a question of what the Secret Service should or shouldn't do. They were the third-party:

    (I posted this above, but no one seems to want to read):

    1. Teacher sees artwork and is concerned. Teacher shows Principal.

    2. Principal sees artwork and is concerned. Principal contacts and shows the police.

    3. The police see the artwork and feel it is a threat against the President. (BTW, you'd be surprised at the number of 15 year olds who have made threats to Presidents). Police notify Secret Service as per law.

    4. Secret Service investigates. If they did not, they would be in violation of their duties.

    This whole thing is being made out to be a huge deal, when really, it's not that big of a deal. As I said before, better to be safe than sorry.

    Regards,
    Waylon

  39. #39
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    Volestream, Got it.

    I think the teacher and principal overreacted. I didn't think the secret service needed to investigate because it wasn't even a threat. I guess they treated as a threat. If I was the parent of the child, I would be really pissed at the school

  40. #40
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    Well that's just it, if you're going to be upset, it should be at the school for jumping the gun. And the SS have to treat everything that is reported to them as a valid threat until they can rule it out. Obviously in this case they did.

    Nice little debate though, hycloud .

    Regards,
    Waylon

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