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Thread: Patriot Act II

  1. #1
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    Patriot Act II

    The Patriot act II is now in in congress . the link is a 12 MB link with the in senate analysis in the beginning and the bill itself at the end. this draft was not supposed to be public until made into law. thus its marked "confidential- not for distribution.


    Comments by By Mr. DASCHLE (for himself, Mr. Leahy, Mr. Biden, Mr. Kennedy, Mr. Schumer, Mr. Durbin, Mrs. Clinton, Mrs. Murray, Mr. Dayton, Mr. Corzine, and Mr. Reed)

    Among other things ,it provides for dna anlysis,and retention of dna records by the FBI of suspected(but not convicted) terrorists. it also redefines a terrorist as anyone who commits a violent crime.

    According to:
    Infowars (They have a write up on it (take it as you see it))

    Public Integrity (They have a write up on it as well. they also offer the file split into portions for those on dial up.)

    I recommend reading the .pdf file before commenting. the analysis was done in-house by a member of congress. i dont know who...Regardless this is not good news,its just another example of how our rights and freedoms are being taken away!!!

    The Dude

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  2. #2

    Re: Patriot Act II

    Originally posted by The Dude
    I recommend reading the .pdf file before commenting. the analysis was done in-house by a member of congress. i dont know who...Regardless this is not good news,its just another example of how our rights and freedoms are being taken away!!!
    Are there Cliff Notes for this? No way I am going to read 120 of Government Legal writing.. Also I don't remember hearing about this in the news anywhere... The PDF is not digitally signed or protected. Something "Confidential" that got out would be a BIG ongoing story...
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    Re: Re: Patriot Act II

    Originally posted by Trifolic
    Also I don't remember hearing about this in the news anywhere...
    You should find a new news source -- it's being heavily covered. For example:

    http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&lr...&q=patriot+act
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  4. #4

    Re: Re: Re: Patriot Act II

    Originally posted by JayC
    You should find a new news source -- it's being heavily covered. For example:

    http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&lr...&q=patriot+act
    Thats the exact news source that I use! But I don't see anything about a Confidential Draft being leaked. I haven't seen it on CNN or Fox News.

    The US government is usually very good at keeping secrets and keeping stuff from leaking out. And when stuff does get out, its all over the news on TV. I haven't seen or heard anything about it.. That was my point..
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    Re: Re: Patriot Act II

    Originally posted by Trifolic
    Are there Cliff Notes for this? No way I am going to read 120 of Government Legal writing.. Also I don't remember hearing about this in the news anywhere... The PDF is not digitally signed or protected. Something "Confidential" that got out would be a BIG ongoing story...
    The problem with reading "cliff notes" is that you are reading someone else's take on it. So no matter whose you read, it will be biased one way or another, and be missing information you may wish to know.
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    Re: Re: Re: Re: Patriot Act II

    Originally posted by Trifolic
    Thats the exact news source that I use! But I don't see anything about a Confidential Draft being leaked. I haven't seen it on CNN or Fox News.
    Sorry, it wasn't clear reading you post that you were talking specifically about that aspect of it. I thought you were saying you hadn't seen anything about revisions to or reauthorization of the Patriot Act!
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    well all I know is the Patriot Act was bad enough I know Patriot Act 2 wont be any better.
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    Maybe the Patriot Act was just a test to see if they could get away with it. I woulnt be surprised if the next one allows Bush to take control of Congress and do away with elections.

    Some will say "that will not and cannot happen, there are laws against it."

    Well, they used to say you couldnt be President without getting elected into office...that was and is currently the law...but guess what, Bush did it..

    The Patriot Act just shows what a bunch of idiots we have in Congress. How the hell can they be stupid enough to pass a bill without being allowed to read it???!!!

    Next they will be requiring all of us to have a computer chip in our head or wrist for identification.. I mean why not. As you can see, the Patriot Acts are slowly doing away with our freedoms and rights. So forget invasion of privacy, evidently the government will be immune.
    Last edited by Webdude; 04-26-2004 at 07:01 PM.

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    well the patriot act goes against the bill of rights for one. Invation of privacy, and lack of trust.
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    And you know what is really sad? There is absolutely nothing we can do about it. We stood by and let it happen, now it's probably too late. Since the government dealt with the various militia around the country before the terrorist issue, I think the government pretty much has it's bases covered..

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    Yes it could be to late (thought their could be a chance still). The government now these days think anyone is against them if they post anything bad about it, try to protest.
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  12. #12
    If they pass this I need to move. Anyone in Canada have a spare bed? Wait.....Does anyone on a Carribean Island have a spare bed?

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    I find it funny they say they are fighting for freedom, but yhet taking the US citizens freedom away at the same time?

    Though America is to blame for this to happen (well not all, but for part). If American's stood up and said "No" then we might not be in this spot.
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    I don't know what to say, our country will soon be what the Nazi nation could have been... If Bush could, he would run our country like a Fascist, well, regime.

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    Originally posted by Webdude
    The Patriot Act just shows what a bunch of idiots we have in Congress. How the hell can they be stupid enough to pass a bill without being allowed to read it???!!!
    It has always been my belief that they simply choose not to read it, where did you hear they are not allowed to read it?
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    I dont know about the majority, but if the government starts taking away rights, pissing on the Constitution, and all that.....

    well, I think there will be some rogue governments, police departments, even military. It would be anarchy and civil war all over again. Most military will protect the people rather than a dictatorship. Those in it for a carreer will say "It's my job, I have to do what I am told" while patriots and loyalists will seperate and form their own groups. It's too bad the feds would still control the nukes, armory, and everything else that would give them the advantage.

    Just one thing that would cause a problem for them....that's the fact that most homes in America have guns, and are well stocked on ammo. The people are just as armed as the military...lol

    Flamethrower? Bomb? Hell we can build those out of stuff you can get at walmart

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    Originally posted by PCplayground
    It has always been my belief that they simply choose not to read it, where did you hear they are not allowed to read it?
    That was a well known fact. They were hogwashed into it making it seem there was no time for debate. In political talk, it meant that if there were a debate, and another tragedy happened, that those who chose to debate the issue would be responsible. So they passed it without ever seeing it. I didnt mean they were forcefully not allowed to see it, just not given the time to do so. They voted before it ever being handed out to them.

    I'm sure after reading up, there were at least a few of our super bright elected that felt like real crap. Because of that, hopefully #2 will never happen.

  18. #18
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    Originally posted by Webdude
    And you know what is really sad? There is absolutely nothing we can do about it.
    In a democracy there's always something that you can do.
    Register to vote, and tell to your friends to do it.
    If you don't like who's on charge, show it in the elections.
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  19. #19
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    LOL, you mean like how Bush lost the election, but still got in? Maybe you need to re-read ALL my posts in this thread to understand where my comment, that you quoted, came from.

  20. #20
    Originally posted by Webdude
    LOL, you mean like how Bush lost the election, but still got in? Maybe you need to re-read ALL my posts in this thread to understand where my comment, that you quoted, came from.
    Man only stupid people who can't read the constitution or don't know how our voting system works say that. I don't like Geroge Bush at all but he still won the election fair and square.

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    This is just another example of how we are losing our rights AND VERY QUICKLY!!!!!!!!!

    Pretty soon speaking out about our govt. will be a terroistic act i think!!!!!!!!!!!

    I THINK ITS TIME TO GOTO SOUTH AMERICA!!!!!!!!!

    The Dude

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  22. #22
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    Originally posted by dk2
    Man only stupid people who can't read the constitution or don't know how our voting system works say that. I don't like Geroge Bush at all but he still won the election fair and square.
    As far as I know, he won with the help of his daddy's friends at the suppreme court, who suspended the recount of the votes at florida.
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    I find it interesting that bush seems so confident with saying he'll "Be here another 4 years" Makes ya think he's gonna try to f**k with the counts again to win!!!!!!!

    The Dude

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    Originally posted by Webdude
    LOL, you mean like how Bush lost the election, but still got in? Maybe you need to re-read ALL my posts in this thread to understand where my comment, that you quoted, came from.
    I fully understand what you mean, but what you think is a tendence "globally", don't let them (politicians) make you believe that there is nothing that you can do. That's what they want to make you believe.

    If you don't like democrats, then vote for republicans, if you think that both are the same sh*t, then vote for the green party, if none of them fill your needs, then get involved in politic. Join a party or create a new one
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    Well they wouldnt use Nukes on its own country that is for sure it would cause more of an up roar then ever. Though the FBI, CIA, and other groups would help them out alot.

    Also with the guns you are correct most people in America (compared to the ones who dont) have guns in their houses, or out side of the house. Where I live most likley 90% if not more have at lease 3 guns in the house . We take care of our people. If some one or some thing hurts a friend we hurt back.



    Originally posted by Webdude
    I dont know about the majority, but if the government starts taking away rights, pissing on the Constitution, and all that.....

    well, I think there will be some rogue governments, police departments, even military. It would be anarchy and civil war all over again. Most military will protect the people rather than a dictatorship. Those in it for a carreer will say "It's my job, I have to do what I am told" while patriots and loyalists will seperate and form their own groups. It's too bad the feds would still control the nukes, armory, and everything else that would give them the advantage.

    Just one thing that would cause a problem for them....that's the fact that most homes in America have guns, and are well stocked on ammo. The people are just as armed as the military...lol

    Flamethrower? Bomb? Hell we can build those out of stuff you can get at walmart
    I am back....


  26. #26
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    http://www.house.gov/paul/search.htm

    Ron Paul said it. I was searching various elected officials house sites for "Patriot Act" or "Patriot" and saw one of the pages that he said it. I dont remember exactly which page since that wasnt the info I was searching for at the time, but it'sd in there.

    The evidence points to the fact that it is indeed true. It was voted for unanimously (I think), yet so many that voted it have now read it, and are not happy. They evidently recieved it AFTER they voted on it, were pressured to vote on it due to urgency..

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    Oh I am in trouble if they decide that going over the speed limit is a terrorist act....

  28. #28
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    Originally posted by Webdude
    The Patriot Act just shows what a bunch of idiots we have in Congress. How the hell can they be stupid enough to pass a bill without being allowed to read it???!!!
    Maybe this is a little off topic, but it's not at all uncommon for members of Congress to vote for or against a bill that they have not read. Come on, those things a really long and confusing with all that legal jargon... reading them is what staffers and lobbyists are around for.

    Now you'd think that with a bill as sweeping as the PATRIOT Act, most of them would have taken the time to investigate its implications... but we'll never know.
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  29. #29
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    JayC, I agree with you on both points.

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    Man only stupid people who can't read the constitution or don't know how our voting system works say that. I don't like Geroge Bush at all but he still won the election fair and square.
    It was far from fair and square. It was so far from being clear that the Florida Supreme Court said that the recound should continue the recount. A recount which was being done by both Democrats and Republicans (one from each party looked at each card and if both did not agree it did not count).

    The US Supreme Court should have let it continue as it would have made things fair and square. If if turned out Bush had won then no one would have questioned it the way they are doing now.
    Alvin

  31. #31
    Originally posted by Torith
    well all I know is the Patriot Act was bad enough I know Patriot Act 2 wont be any better.
    Ok..in what way was teh PA "bad enough"? Oh, yes, the liberal presses fantasy of bootjack thugs kicking in doors in the middle of night and whisking ppl away. Sorry, that method went out with Janet Reno's regime. Haven't seen Ashcroft burn people to death, shoot children and women, kick in doors and snatch terrorified little kids while the press took pictures and so on. Course Janet was just a sweet woman...well, I think Janet's a woman...could never tell.

  32. #32
    Originally posted by Webdude
    I dont know about the majority, but if the government starts taking away rights, pissing on the Constitution, and all that.....

    well, I think there will be some rogue governments, police departments, even military. It would be anarchy and civil war all over again. Most military will protect the people rather than a dictatorship. Those in it for a carreer will say "It's my job, I have to do what I am told" while patriots and loyalists will seperate and form their own groups. It's too bad the feds would still control the nukes, armory, and everything else that would give them the advantage.

    Just one thing that would cause a problem for them....that's the fact that most homes in America have guns, and are well stocked on ammo. The people are just as armed as the military...lol

    Flamethrower? Bomb? Hell we can build those out of stuff you can get at walmart
    You want to know who's pissing on teh constitution? Not congress, but the courts. The liberal courts who invent constitutional rights that don't exist, that circumvent the very document they are supposed to interrupt. The U.S. is run by 9 men in black robes, nobody else.

    As for losing rights, In the last 4 years, I've not noticed ONE right that I used to have that I no longer have. Hmm...isn't that strange...I thought I lost rights...don't seem to notice anything missing...nope..they are still here...gosh, they must have over looked me...I can still print and say what I want about whomever I want and no one has kicked in my door. I can go down the block to the gun store and buy a shotgun..nope..that's still there. I'm just confused..guess I gotta go buy a copy of the NY Times so they can explain to a simply folk like me what rights and freedoms I'm losing....brb.

  33. #33
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    I have to admit that I have not personally seen any negative effects from the first Patriot Act. However, with greater powers comes greater responsibility. And just because it has not been abused yet does not mean it never will. I do agree people are making it sound much worse then it really is, though I believe it naive to think that a person would not potentially abuse such powers either.
    Alvin

  34. #34
    Originally posted by Jedito
    As far as I know, he won with the help of his daddy's friends at the suppreme court, who suspended the recount of the votes at florida.
    Boy are you so far off the mark.....

    1) They recounted the votes several times..each time Bush won. After each count more and more paper ballots became unreadable due to handling. Chads were falling off showing mulitple votes (chads are the small dots of paper from a punch).

    2) The dems would have kept counting over and over until enough had been damaged to swing the vote..but then the Rep would have pushed for recounts..so in the end, it would have been a never ending cycle.

    3) Supreme Court is comprised of 9 members, and they were not in anyones pocket. It's ok when they rule in favor of liberals (ie Wade vs Roe ..abortion rights...) that's justice and right (though constitutionally invalid), but it's not ok when they decided that enough is enough that after numerous counts the election is decided in favor or the Republican candidate.

    4) The whole fiasco tore this country apart and I put that squarely on the press and Gore. The press for jumping the gun on Florida's counts and then having to retract it, which is what lead to the whole issue. Gore was ready to honorably concide till then.

    There was no fix, there was not "daddy Supreme Court", it was simply the right thing to do. I'll let it go since you obviously are not a U.S. citizen and the only facts are those you garnered from tainted sources.

  35. #35
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    You might not have noticed it yhet, but you will notice it then you will start complaining. Bill of rights was made for a reason, and the patriot act goes against the bill of rights (not all of it but part of it)

    Originally posted by ArtieFishill
    You want to know who's pissing on teh constitution? Not congress, but the courts. The liberal courts who invent constitutional rights that don't exist, that circumvent the very document they are supposed to interrupt. The U.S. is run by 9 men in black robes, nobody else.

    As for losing rights, In the last 4 years, I've not noticed ONE right that I used to have that I no longer have. Hmm...isn't that strange...I thought I lost rights...don't seem to notice anything missing...nope..they are still here...gosh, they must have over looked me...I can still print and say what I want about whomever I want and no one has kicked in my door. I can go down the block to the gun store and buy a shotgun..nope..that's still there. I'm just confused..guess I gotta go buy a copy of the NY Times so they can explain to a simply folk like me what rights and freedoms I'm losing....brb.
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  36. #36
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    or how about the police or any other offical can search your house, car without your permission?

    or

    Allowing Law Enforcement Agencies to Evade the Fourth Amendment's Probable Cause Requirement

    I can think of many more if you like.
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  37. #37
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    I think this best states it

    "What's So Patriotic About Trampling on the Bill of Rights?"
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  38. #38
    Originally posted by alvinks
    I have to admit that I have not personally seen any negative effects from the first Patriot Act. However, with greater powers comes greater responsibility. And just because it has not been abused yet does not mean it never will. I do agree people are making it sound much worse then it really is, though I believe it naive to think that a person would not potentially abuse such powers either.
    And the fact is, this is still the U.S. We STILL have certain rights to remove people from office every 4-6 years, or sooner if they need to be (like Clinton, unfortunately, they lacked backbone to carry thru with removal dispite being impeached).

    But this country had become a bitter one, we are so partisan thanks mostly to the press, that I'm not sure if it can be fixed. Bush obviously is so reviled by the press and left that even if he was St Peter himself, could not do right by them. Kerry, well, Kerry is a waffler and personally does not have a chance and from what I've read in the liberal rags, they are not so keen on him anymore either. Dean? Well....he's appealed to the kids, but they don't vote..lol. Edwards...he might have had a chance, but the DNC tore itself up because it's so focused on hating Bush that it's totally lost it's mind.

    Of course there's always Nader...HAHAHAHAHA.

  39. #39
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    Ross Perot!! Ross Perot!! Ross Perot!!

    eh, nevermind. I dont think anyone could take such a squeeky voice seriously.

    So what remains is, what choice do we have? None of them are any good. Ok, so the answer is "dont vote". Even if 99% of the people DIDNT vote, someone would still win.

    The only way to REALLY do something is vote ALL politicians out and start new with non-politicians.

  40. #40
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    People just need to vote. The more people vote the more democratic we become.
    Alvin

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