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  1. #26
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Bay Area, CA
    Posts
    215
    Originally posted by sightz
    Those wimps using their fancy-schmancy text editors.

    Am I the only one who writes ones and zeros directly to the hard drives of my servers using a 300 baud modem on a Commodore 64?


    Ahhh...that brings back memories...my first modem was a C-64 300 baud. I woulda used it more if I coulda beaten that darn Zork game! LOL

  2. #27
    It all comes down to your design skills. Here are the programs I've used, from oldest to most recent:

    - Claris Homepage

    - Microsoft FrontPage

    - Adobe GoLive

    - Macromedia Dreamweaver MX

    - Notepad

    I have not noticed any decrease in creativity or productivity since I dumped Dreamweaver. You don't need it to create great sites. However, if you aren't a strong coder and you need an editor that will create (almost) valid HTML, Dreamweaver is a good choice.

    Now that I've moved on from table-based designs and use XHTML and CSS for everything, there isn't really a WYWIWYG editor that works for me - even Dreamweaver MX 2004's CSS support is a joke. But I can't really say that I miss using visual editors. My coding skills are much better now than back in the day when I was using Claris Homepage.

    And to the poster who said he would hire a designer who knew both HTML and Dreamweaver because he would be faster: I'm going to step out on a limb and say that I could throw up an entire site faster using CSS, XHTML, and Notepad. The time advantages of using CSS over traditional table-based layouts aren't talked about very often, but someone adept with CSS can create (and especially modify) a site much faster than a designer using traditional methods.

  3. #28
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Houston, TX - Originally from UK
    Posts
    707
    Quote Originally Posted by mulder
    Those wimps and their fancy-schmancy modems. Real developers save their data to cassette tape!!!
    Those wimps and their fancy-shmancy cassettes. Real developers use punchcards!
    Kinkamono Internet Services - The Internet. Done Right.
    Dive In...

  4. #29
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Houston, TX - Originally from UK
    Posts
    707
    Quote Originally Posted by jpayne
    I'm going to step out on a limb and say that I could throw up an entire site faster using CSS, XHTML, and Notepad.
    I agree. Absolutely. But (and I apologise for blowing my own trumpet here, but at least I know I've got a trumpet to blow) I'm damn good at CSS-based designs. For someone less adept it must seem quite daunting, especially when Dreamweaver (even MX 2004) doesn't quite get CSS designs correct in its design view.

    In the case of CSS designs and Dreamweaver, what you see is most definitely not what you get!
    Kinkamono Internet Services - The Internet. Done Right.
    Dive In...

  5. #30
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    184
    Vistual Studio .NET for me

  6. #31
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    2,997
    Can't stand the code VS.net generates.

  7. #32
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    184
    Originally posted by Rich2k
    Can't stand the code VS.net generates.
    I dont use the Design view only the code view

  8. #33
    So is table design old news? Is there a good tool for developing CSS designs?

    Since I do web development in my spare time, I need to develop sites in as little time as possible. I know I can produce sites using DW + table design fairly quickly. I just dont see how developing code from scratch can be faster than using a GUI. Please enlighten a brotha.

    Mulder
    Quentin Moore - TechRanker.net (Site re-launch coming soon)
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  9. #34
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    184
    Originally posted by mulder
    So is table design old news? Is there a good tool for developing CSS designs?

    Since I do web development in my spare time, I need to develop sites in as little time as possible. I know I can produce sites using DW + table design fairly quickly. I just dont see how developing code from scratch can be faster than using a GUI. Please enlighten a brotha.

    Mulder
    Developing sites in DW is perfectly acceptable and is definately faster than coding from scratch. I just prefer having complete control over the code, it does take a lot longer to get results though - I think its a bit old school but thats how I have always done it and that the way I like it hahaha

    I suppose its down to personal preference but I find when working with DW or any WYSIWYG editor that you tend to remove yourself from the code, which is exactly where I prefer to be. I dont really code static sites anymore, everything is database driven anyhow.

    If I did a lot of static sites I might be tempted to give DW a try again.

  10. #35
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    London UK
    Posts
    1,235
    Dreamweaver MX, didn't see any reason to upgrade to 2004 and Topstyle Pro 3 which i couldn't really do without tbh.

    I do alot of dynamic stuff so i like to be able to use templates, live previews, code locking all the stuff i couldn't do with notepad :p

    question to those who does use notepad, how do you embed your .swfs? memorised the code have you?
    <erno> hm. I've lost a machine.. literally _lost_. it responds to ping, it works completely, I just can't figure out where in my apartment it is.

  11. #36
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Ft Worth, TX
    Posts
    4
    I'll second textpad

  12. #37
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    21
    Pretty invariably, people who claim they design completely in Notepad are usually either broke or amazingly elitist.

    The thing about Dreamweaver, is that most experienced designers don't bother actually visually designing in the design view. It's immensely time saving to switch over to design view to check out how things are going - that's something that Notepad just doesn't have the advantage over.

    Another matter is syntax highlighting - Dreamweaver handled this rather well - and Notepad, well, just doesn't. Notepad is a word processor, not a dedicated HTML Editor. You don't hear professional graphic designers parading around claiming to design in Paint. It just doesn't equate.

    And finally, whatever you're coding, these days more time is spent developing your CSS - after that, it's just a few elements here and there with the odd DOCTYPE. With the inclusion of CSS, it makes visual design pretty limiting.

    Either way, as long as you meet XHTML and CSS compliancy, it doesn't really matter. You can't debate opinion, 'cause it's neither right nor wrong.

    I'm not wrong, am I right?

    Ciao.
    *bump* There goes another host.

  13. #38
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Providence, RI USA
    Posts
    26
    I use FrontPage 2003 and Dreamweaver MX. Microsoft really did a great job with FrontPage 2003, and I find myself using it more then Dreamweaver. :-)
    Derrick Santos Interactive: Technology Solutions
    DS5000.com Server: Internet Solutions
    -------------------------
    Offering Web & Graphic Design, Hosting, Dedicated Servers, Domains & more!

  14. #39
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    184
    Originally posted by ds5000
    I use FrontPage 2003 and Dreamweaver MX. Microsoft really did a great job with FrontPage 2003, and I find myself using it more then Dreamweaver. :-)
    I had the unfortunate experience of trying the first release of FrontPage on a live site and it messed it up completely - apparently putting ALL the html on one long line with no spaces was the "recommended" way lol.

    I have never touched it since then but I have heard that the latest incarnation is surprisingly good, some people even suggest that its better than dreamweaver (and cheaper).

  15. #40
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    2,997
    Originally posted by Floyd
    Either way, as long as you meet XHTML and CSS compliancy, it doesn't really matter. You can't debate opinion, 'cause it's neither right nor wrong.
    Well actually you need to meet accessibility guidelines too and there is no accurate checker for that. Bobby is probably the best but it still requires user checks.

  16. #41
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Posts
    551
    i still like vim, has tons of scripts and features, and is on every server I have ever touched (*nix only for me oh and sometimes when I am unlucky there is only vi )

  17. #42
    Mekhu:
    lol, gotta love the 13 year olds that are the cats meow cause they know html
    ...May I ask, but how did you know I was 13, or was that a quote about something else.

    By the way, 13 year olds (almost 14 for me), if they know html, they usually know alot more than simple html. Somepeople know php, perl, c++, etc... all that annoying stuff. And some of them who have alot of money, have a Torque lisence (a friend has it).

    I am bored, as you can probaly see.

  18. #43
    Dreamweaver is cool, but I like Open Source Freebies.

    Bluefish is cool for your linux box.

  19. #44
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    184
    Originally posted by 1jetsam
    Mekhu:


    ...May I ask, but how did you know I was 13, or was that a quote about something else.

    By the way, 13 year olds (almost 14 for me), if they know html, they usually know alot more than simple html. Somepeople know php, perl, c++, etc... all that annoying stuff. And some of them who have alot of money, have a Torque lisence (a friend has it).

    I am bored, as you can probaly see.
    13 yr olds should be riding bikes, climbing trees, playing sport and robbing convience stores, not spending all their time in front of the PC - Get out and see the Sun, while you still can.

  20. #45
    Originally posted by delirium
    13 yr olds should be riding bikes, climbing trees, playing sport and robbing convience stores, not spending all their time in front of the PC - Get out and see the Sun, while you still can.
    I agree. You only have 5 more years to have a free ride (9 if your parents pay for college ). Take advatage of this time. You'll kick yourself later if you dont.

    Mulder
    Quentin Moore - TechRanker.net (Site re-launch coming soon)
    Best Tech Gadget Reviews | Mobile App Reviews | Comparison Charts
    Admin @ TechRanker.net | @ TechRanker | TechRanker.net

  21. #46
    Homesite is my coding tool of choice - writes good clean html and good for programing PHP/ASP too.

    Photoshop and ImageReady take care of the arty stuff.

  22. #47
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    161
    Originally posted by delirium
    I had the unfortunate experience of trying the first release of FrontPage on a live site and it messed it up completely - apparently putting ALL the html on one long line with no spaces was the "recommended" way lol.

    I have never touched it since then but I have heard that the latest incarnation is surprisingly good, some people even suggest that its better than dreamweaver (and cheaper).
    Definitely better and cheaper... it's no longer FP in Dreamweaver's rearview mirror, but Dreamweaver watching FP take off full out in front...

    I've used FP since 97, and it's most recent incarnation isn't just better, it's amazing. 2003 is a worthy of praise... However, I've used Dreamweaver sporadically for 2 years and would never pay for the product again.

    Vivvy

  23. #48
    Funny isn't it, I used FP a few times and can't stand it ... but ... that also is true for Dreamweaver!

  24. #49
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    161
    Well the reality is no one product is the end all be all.. I'm still constantly tinkering with the code... there is no perfect editor... but I tell ya, fp2003 sure makes my life easier...

    Vivvy

  25. #50
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    54
    Notepad.

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